1. #1
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    Default Brother Charged With Vehicular Homicide

    Guyís, take a look at the article below. On Wednesday 13 December, a Cincinnati Fire Fighter was charged with vehicular homicide in relation to a traffic accident in which he was involved. It appears that alcohol was a factor in the crash.

    A few years ago, a union brother with our department killed a man when he struck the decedent's vehicle head on. He was over the BA limit at the time. He was convicted of vehicular homicide and spent 3 years in prison.

    Take a look at the link, be careful this Holiday Season and donít think it canít happen to you.

    Fireman charged in fatal crash
    BY WILLIAM A. WEATHERS | BWEATHERS@ENQUIRER.COM
    Police have charged a 28-year-old Cincinnati firefighter with aggravated vehicular homicide in the death of a young mother early this morning in a wrong-way crash on Interstate 71 near the Reading Road exit.

    Joseph Dance, of Green Township, is charged in the death of Lisa Kreutzer, 26, of Delhi Township, police said this morning.

    Alcohol is believed to be a factor in the crash, police said.


    City spokeswoman Meg Olberding said this afternoon that Dance has been placed on unpaid leave pending the outcome of the police investigation and a city administrative investigation. He faces possible dismissal from his job depending on the outcome of those investigations, she said.

    Dance has been a Cincinnati firefighter since 1999 and is currently assigned to firehouse 17 in Lower Price Hill.

    Dance was driving a 2000 Ford Expedition south in the northbound lanes when he collided with Kreutzer's 1993 Chevrolet Corsica, police said.

    Dance had entered the interstate in the wrong direction at Reading Road, police said.

    Both Dance and Kreutzer were wearing seat belts at the time of the crash, police said.

    Northbound I-71 was closed at the scene of the crash from 1:30 a.m. to 4:30 a.m.

    Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory issued the following statement:

    "My heart goes out to the family of Lisa Kreutzer in this terrible time of tragedy. We all will be keeping the Kreutzer family in our thoughts and prayers. I encourage everyone to take this moment to remember the love of your friends and family during the holiday season and throughout the year."

    Anyone who witnessed the crash is asked to call the Cincinnati policeís Traffic Unit at 513-352-2514.

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    I hope your only reason for posting this is to serve as a warning to everyone to NOT DRINK AND DRIVE, because it has NOTHING to do with firefighting.

    Both were in the POVs, off duty and under the influence (I guess I should say allegedly in the 2nd case, as he hasn't been convicted).

    In the first story, it doesn't matter one iota that he was/is a Union Brother. He was charged and convicted. Period.

    In the second story, it doesn't matter one iota that he is a firefighter. Both were plain old ordinary civilians at the time of their offences.

    No different than if they were plumbers or carpenters. Mentioning that they are firefighters is just the media doing it's headline grabbing shock value thing.
    Last edited by RspctFrmCalgary; 12-14-2006 at 06:06 PM.
    September 11th - Never Forget

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    I agree Calgary, this is a tragic reminder about drinking and driving. What it is NOT, is a fire department related issue. The fact that he is a firefighter should never have been placed in the article, except of course it makes for a neat headline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    I agree Calgary, this is a tragic reminder about drinking and driving. What it is NOT, is a fire department related issue. The fact that he is a firefighter should never have been placed in the article, except of course it makes for a neat headline.
    While I agree in principal, I have to admit that it's really a "yes and no" situation.

    Yes, it does make for a "neat headline." You wouldn't be very likely to see the headline "Plumber Charged in Fatal Crash" but we all know that the title "firefighter" will always make its way into the story if it can. The long and short of it is that we're role models on-duty or off whether we like it or not and the press will latch onto it every time we screw something up.

    So it really is a bit of a fire department issue in that sense...
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    While I agree in principal, I have to admit that it's really a "yes and no" situation.

    Yes, it does make for a "neat headline." You wouldn't be very likely to see the headline "Plumber Charged in Fatal Crash" but we all know that the title "firefighter" will always make its way into the story if it can. The long and short of it is that we're role models on-duty or off whether we like it or not and the press will latch onto it every time we screw something up.

    So it really is a bit of a fire department issue in that sense...
    Absolutely agree DeputyMarshal.

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    I agree with DeputyMarshal,I feel anyone who is a public servant mainly fire and police mostly, is looked at or held to a higher level, We all have a bullseye on us ,and like it was said, one mistake and the press is all over it! Is it fair? I don't think so but thats the way it is. However the above incident is unfortunate, and another black eye to the fire service.

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    Ooops ... my original wording did have a comment about firefighters being role models. Must have nuked it.
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
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    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

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    I know I am going to sound like a hard ***...but I really have no sympathy at all for either one of the firefighters in the original post. Drunk driving is one of those things that are inexcusable no matter who you are. The fact that the press grabbed onto the fact that both were firefighters is an unfortunate black eye to our business but one we should all be used to.

    If it was up to me the first offense would cost you your license for a year and the second would cost you some serious jail time. The time to accept drunk driving as something that happens and wow was he lucky he didn't get caught are long past. I am sick of responding to the few drunk driving wrecks a year I go to.

    If my attitude ****es you off....maybe next time you drink and drive it will be you going to jail...

    FyredUp

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    FRYEDUP:
    Screw you you self righteous turd, never made any mistakes in your life? I had a DUI 4 yrs ago after doing something stupid but managed to fight for my job. You are probably like the rookie we asked lst week if he ever masturbated and while he turned red totally denied it. Please don't judge others based on your personal opinions of life. My guess is that if we could see in "your closet" there may be a few things that would prohibit you from being what you are.

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    Screw you you self righteous turd, never made any mistakes in your life? I had a DUI 4 yrs ago after doing something stupid but managed to fight for my job.
    Wow, thatís quite the attitude to take, especially with drunk driving. Let me ask you, were you fed those drinks by force, or did you voluntarily consume them? I know every time I have consumed alcohol, it has always been by my choice.
    Anytime a person drinks alcohol, and then CHOOSES to get behind the wheel of a car, they need to accept the responsibility for their actions.

    Now, before you decide to hit me with the same venom, the answer is yes; I have driven my car after drinking, and it is by pure luck that I never received a DUI. I can tell you that now I either drink at home, take a cab, or have a designated driver for drinking on the town. The DUI law has been changed in my state, which is the same as FyredUp (not Fryed), so that if you receive 2 DUIís, you are unable to keep an EMT license, which makes it tough to keep a job that requires said license, along with your drivers license.
    The difference here, with this story, is that the drunk driver killed someone. If you drive drunk and get away with it, try to learn from it, and donít do it in the future; there is always a way to drink and not drive. If you drink, and then you drive, and then you hurt or kill someone, it is YOUR fault and no one else.
    I really canít think of anything I have done that is more stupid in my life than drive after drinking; it really is stupid. I am fortunate to never have been stopped. Should one DUI cost a person their job? No, we all make mistakes. Anyone can have a slip up, and get caught, especially with BACís as low as they are now. The difference comes in when you are a repeat offender, you hurt someone, or you kill someone. The only attitude I see that needs to be changed, is yours.



    Deputy, I still disagree with you. Time and again the argument is made on these same forums that what happens on your off time is your business, and not the departments.
    This story should not have had the term firefighter associated with it. He was off-duty, he was not in a department vehicle, he was not representing the department. The media never hesitate to put firefighter with every mistake we make, and the result is a black eye for all of us, but it isnít right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wag11c View Post
    FRYEDUP:
    Screw you you self righteous turd, never made any mistakes in your life? I had a DUI 4 yrs ago after doing something stupid but managed to fight for my job. You are probably like the rookie we asked lst week if he ever masturbated and while he turned red totally denied it. Please don't judge others based on your personal opinions of life. My guess is that if we could see in "your closet" there may be a few things that would prohibit you from being what you are.
    ****ed off as you may be since his post seemed like an attack on you since you have a DUI, hes right.

    Personally, I think the punishment should be way more harsh than he said. 1st offense, 3 years of no driving, 2nd attempt, no more driving period.

    1 strike really shouldn't even be needed, but sometimes it takes people 1 **** up to fix their life.

    Its just sad in this case the **** up can often cost others their lives.

    Seems unfair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wag11c View Post
    FRYEDUP:
    Screw you you self righteous turd, never made any mistakes in your life? I had a DUI 4 yrs ago after doing something stupid but managed to fight for my job. You are probably like the rookie we asked lst week if he ever masturbated and while he turned red totally denied it. Please don't judge others based on your personal opinions of life. My guess is that if we could see in "your closet" there may be a few things that would prohibit you from being what you are.
    Hopefully along with fighting for your job you have fought just as hard to change your lifestyle. Its rare that a drunk driver's first offense is his/her true first offense, it's usually just the first time they get caught. Everyone is entitled to make mistakes and we (as a society) should allow for people to learn from those mistakes and better their lives with no judgement. It doesn't happen that way though so deal with it. The fact of the matter is that someone was killed because this guy choose to drink and drive and because he is a firefigher his punishment should be harsher than the general public. We of all people know exactly the toll that drinking and driving take on people and therefore we should be held to a higher standard.

    And before you rant away, no I'm not perfect their are things that I have done in the past that IF I was to do it now I would lose my job. And I would deserve it.

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    Thumbs down R U Serious

    DUI? Next time you need to cut a lifeless humanbeing out of a car wreck and then put a tarp over the body. Ask your self if drinking and driving is a non punishable crime.. The sad part the f"n" drunk is sitting on the curb saying he's sorry. Have I drove drunk "YES" do I deserve to lose my licence 1st offence "YES" It only takes the one time to kill a human or yourself..
    I know after 3 beers we are not loaded and can still drive OK but the law doesnt allow it.. As for being a firefighter they had no right to point that out. He was not on duty and or in a Fire Dept vehicle. Wag you said you were sorry for ****ing people off. Dont be sorry. You said it now stick with it.
    I wonder how you feel about alcohol in the fire service or fire fighters under the influence on the fire ground.

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    [QUOTE=JAFA62;749787]
    I know after 3 beers we are not loaded and can still drive OK but the law doesnt allow it.. As for being a firefighter they had no right to point that out. He was not on duty and or in a Fire Dept vehicle.QUOTE]
    How can you tell someone's not "loaded" after 3 beers? It shouldn't matter if its 1 beer or 1 case. You drink don't drive. Is it that difficult of a concept for people to grasp? Don't make excuses for the behaivor and don't tolerate it.

    As for the paper not having a "right" to print that he was a firefighter. They sure do. 1st Amendment. You make not like the fact the it was pointed out but that's the way it is. I think it should be pointed out any time it is a person who is in the public trust. Mayor, councilmen, teachers, cops, firefighters, emt's, etc. IMHO part of the reason that we (the fire service) dont want this printed is that we want to protect our own. We want to keep our good name and not have it smeared in public. Lofty goals to be sure. Here's an idea, if you know a brother has a problem (drugs/alcohol) then we should try to get them help. If they don't want it or they continue to show up drunk, drink and drive, etc. Then kick'em out. Don't be gentle about it get rid of 'em. You want to keep the fire service's name good and above reproach don't tolerate behaivor that's going to smear it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wag11c View Post
    FRYEDUP:
    Screw you you self righteous turd, Wow, did I strike a nerve? I much prefer being called a self righteous ***, but turd will do. never made any mistakes in your life? Sure made a ton of them, even drove drunk a time or 2 when I was 18 years old...the difference is I grew up and realized that drinking and driving were a stupid combination so never more. Usually I am the designated driver these days. I had a DUI 4 yrs ago after doing something stupid but managed to fight for my job. A shame that as a firefighter you weren't smarter than that. But perhaps you have never peeled the lifeless body of a teenager out of a car that was killed by someone who made a stupid mistake and drank and then drove home because after all he had done it 5 million times before and gotten away with it. You are probably like the rookie we asked lst week if he ever masturbated and while he turned red totally denied it. Ummm, I don;t care what your hobby is, Although asking people if they masterbate seems a little strange to me. But hey if it makes you happy please continue. I would recommend that you not drive and masterbate at the same time though. Please don't judge others based on your personal opinions of life. My opinion is simply that. I freely admit that if it were up to me the punishments would be harsher and if you got caught more than twice you would sit in jail for a good chunk of years, perhaps even 10 or more. Why? So selfishness and stupidity that come from drinking doesn;t harm or kill innocent people. My guess is that if we could see in "your closet" there may be a few things that would prohibit you from being what you are. Perhaps, but all of them came before I was 21 and not after I was supposedly a mature adult and a Union paid firefighter.
    Look don't like my opinion, sorry about that. Drunk driving is one of the stupidest things I can imagine. There is no excuse for it and the innocent lives lost to this senseless tragedy are why I am as harsh about it as I am.

    FyredUp

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    Nobody has really mentioned that this guy very well may be driving the departments vehicles either drunk or hung over. If he were to be involved in even a minor accident while driving a fire department vehicle, the burden of proof that he was not driving the vehicle while impaired will fall back on the department. And that burden will always be questioned with this guys history of DUI, because like one poster said... he probably had been drinking and driving before, he just got caught this time.

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