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  1. #41
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    "The likelyhood of lateral spread is almost impossible,"

    Almost.
    Type II Multiple dwelling. Main body of fire in rear bedroom with extension throughout fire apartment.

    Photograph 1.
    Waste line in kitchen of fire apartment looking up to apartment above.

    Photograph 2.
    Main waste line in bathroom of fire apartment looking up to apartment above.

    William Carey
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    Last edited by bcarey; 12-21-2006 at 04:09 PM.
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace


  2. #42
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    Steve,

    Totally off the subject, but how many runs do you normally have for people coming out of those, I'll call them "poor man balconies"? (your number three photograph in the first post of photograpsh) And have you had any members come across them and fall, or almost, while operating?

    Just curious.
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

  3. #43
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    William,
    Firstly, with regard to my comment on lateral spread...I was implying this specifically in terms of UK public apartment Buildings... Below is a photgraph of one under construction, you can see how robust they are...

    As for people at balconies... I don't think we have had any more or less rescues from those type of balconies than any other...although we would tewnd to treat that as a window rescue because whatever way you lokk at it they are still within the building and not on any sort of balcony that might offer at least some respite from the fire.

    There have been no particular issues with Ff's falling or almost falling from them. Any external rescue would be from a ladder directly placed at that opening.

    Last edited by SteveDude; 12-21-2006 at 04:26 PM.
    Steve Dude
    IACOJ member
    www.fireservice.co.uk

    London Fire Brigade...."Can Do"


    'Irony'... It's a British thing.

  4. #44
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    Default Thanks.

    I was adding on to your statement about lateral spread. At a fire in one similar apartment( garden style here), I was sent up to the floor above to check and had an officer from another truck stop me and give me the "she's all concrete, that fire isn't going anywhere." After we got into the apartment above, we found the base cabinets on fire.

    On the balconies, I was curious as to how those gate'bar devices hold up. I imagine they are in place by masonry anchors. Oh, what is with the holes in the walls? SAS patrol action?

    Thanks. Stay safe and have a Merry Christmas.
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

  5. #45
    MembersZone Subscriber SteveDude's Avatar
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    Sorry for the confusion bruv.... I see what you are saying now.

    The holes in the wall...no idea? The block is probably 80% derelict so anything could have caused them...even the SAS
    Steve Dude
    IACOJ member
    www.fireservice.co.uk

    London Fire Brigade...."Can Do"


    'Irony'... It's a British thing.

  6. #46
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    Default speaking of garden apartments...

    hwoods, remember this one?

    It is a bit south of you, but a history maker none the less.
    Photo courtesy Jim Guyton.

    Additionally, the book he mentions is out of print, but if you need to be book smart about it, you can find it at a few online sources (http://www.bookfinder4u.com/detail/0876188854.html). There may be a photo of a familiar Stuphen in there as well, if my memory is correct.
    Last edited by bcarey; 12-28-2006 at 05:35 PM.
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarey View Post
    hwoods, remember this one?

    It is a bit south of you, but a history maker none the less.
    Photo courtesy Jim Guyton.
    Yep, 6400 block of Pennsylvania Ave, I can't recall the exact year ('91-'92 or so?) but it was definitely one of those jobs people talked about for years. I was on the first alarm.
    Long story short - weekday afternoon, 2-3 story occupied brick garden apartment. There was a failure of the gas meter in the end-of-row building that caused an explosion and fire, pretty much demolishing that building. First arriving unit E-26 had fire blowing 20-30 feet straight out into the street. It was a miracle that there were no fatalities. We got lines into the attached exposure buildings, ended up burning the crap out of Exposure 4but did manage to make a stop saving the other two buildings in the row.
    Didn't get out of there until about 0300 the next day.

  8. #48
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    I am new to structural firefighting, and I am currently studying the "ventilation" portion of the essentials book.

    In the overhead photo, about midways along the roof, it looks as if the roof was trenched towards the edges in order to stop the fire. I was just wondering if this was correct, or it was something else I might be seeing.

    Also, would the trench normally be done "downstream" or down nozzle from where the fire is, in anticipation of the fire being pushed that direction by prevailing winds, forced ventilation, or water attack?
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWLAFireDawg View Post


    I am new to structural firefighting, and I am currently studying the "ventilation" portion of the essentials book.

    In the overhead photo, about midways along the roof, it looks as if the roof was trenched towards the edges in order to stop the fire. I was just wondering if this was correct, or it was something else I might be seeing.

    Also, would the trench normally be done "downstream" or down nozzle from where the fire is, in anticipation of the fire being pushed that direction by prevailing winds, forced ventilation, or water attack?
    Those cuts, in order to be effective must go from fire wall or bulkhead to another firewall or bulkhead so fire cannot pass the cut. They might have started and abandoned the operation...but it certainly doesn't appear to be a complete cut.

    FTM-PTB

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Those cuts, in order to be effective must go from fire wall or bulkhead to another firewall or bulkhead so fire cannot pass the cut. They might have started and abandoned the operation...but it certainly doesn't appear to be a complete cut.

    FTM-PTB
    So in this case, if as stated in earlier posts there were no firewalls, the trench method would be ineffective, and would at best only slow the extension slightly?

    Or were you referring to the fact that it does not appear to go from the edge of the exterior wall to the edge of the other exterior wall?

  11. #51
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    "So in this case, if as stated in earlier posts there were no firewalls, the trench method would be ineffective, and would at best only slow the extension slightly?"

    No. If there were no fire walls, and in this case there are not, then the trench cut would be effective in cutting of the fire extension in the cockloft, if there was rapidly extending fire there. Just because you may have extension into the cockloft does not mean you must perform a trench cut. The amount of fire, reports on extension from interior units, the coordination fire attack itself, all contribute. Remember a fire wall is a true fire wall if it separates, completly, the adjoining buildings. Some construction styles in garden apartments, townhouses and townhomes give an appearance of having a fire wall, but do not completely separate the buildings.

    "Or were you referring to the fact that it does not appear to go from the edge of the exterior wall to the edge of the other exterior wall?"

    I believe that he is referring to the fact that the cut does not extend, or was not completely opened up the whole length, from roof edge to peak and opposite roof edge.

    "Also, would the trench normally be done "downstream" or down nozzle from where the fire is, in anticipation of the fire being pushed that direction by prevailing winds, forced ventilation, or water attack?"
    Would you like the text book answer or the real world answer? The trench cut must be done in cooperation with the fire attack, or the fire will be "pushed". In my experience of doing trench cuts, the primary consideration was what part do we want to save?

    In the photo below, a truck crew went to the adjoining apartment building and performed a trench cut slightly past the area of extension in that unit.


    Backstep, remember, A.269 made department history by calling it in and requesting Communications dispatch the box and second alarm at the same time.
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    Last edited by bcarey; 01-28-2007 at 07:13 PM.
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

  12. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber SWLAFireDawg's Avatar
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    OK....I think I understand it a little better now. The trenching will "pull" the fire to its direction, but hopefully protect the other side by venting flame and hot gases out the roof, essentially stopping the extension through the attic or cockloft voids. It does not necessarily have to be done in the current direction of fire travel.

    And I understand about the communication with interior crews and further size-up before just blindly initiating a trench.

    Thanks!!

  13. #53
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    "The trenching will "pull" the fire to its direction, but hopefully protect the other side by venting flame and hot gases out the roof, essentially stopping the extension through the attic or cockloft voids. It does not necessarily have to be done in the current direction of fire travel."

    It can pull the fire, and you most likely would do it in the direction of fire travel, but the principle is to cut off the fire from traveling the whole building. What you do when you trench a roof is create an actual trench, a moat for example, a break in the building from the burning portion and the nonburning portion. It is unlikely you would do a trench cut as part of roof ventilation for a top floor apartment room on fire. An advanced fire involving two or more units on a top floor, maybe. It depends on the indications of extension when you arrive and your knowledge of that building's construction.
    Last edited by bcarey; 01-28-2007 at 08:50 PM.
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

  14. #54
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    OK...its getting clearer...thanks for the clarification. Give me another 20 years and I'll know twice as much of a 1/4 of what I should.........

    Instead of a 2/20, I'll probably be the 20/2........

  15. #55
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    SWLA,
    Here is a link to a good article about flat roof ventilation here on Firehouse http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...r.jsp?id=49753
    I agree, this trench cut is incomplete for whatever reason. It should extend completely from one exterior wall to the other. There may be a time when high wind, for example, would affect the placement of the trench but it is more common to place the trench cut as a defensive measure between the fire and the part of the building you intend to save.

  16. #56
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    GREAT article..... and not as simple an operation as what I thought it might be. Quite a big decision.

    We are a rural area, and offhand the only large building I can think of is the school........maybe a warehouse.

    I don't think I'll ever see this one done, but it is good to understand it. Okay, thanks guys!

  17. #57
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    Default Trench, Dampen, And Pray

    Not in the essentials manual but it works... If the fire is spreading rapidly we have had success by getting one unit (or apartment) ahead of the fire in the direction of fire travel. Then cutting a trench in the roof, pulling ceiling on the second / top floor, then applying water to the unburned area between the trench and the fire.

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