Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 57
  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    123

    Default Garden Apartment

    Let's critique this one: Tuesday, 9:30 AM; fire in an occupied multiple dwelling/garden apartment type as shown. The main building entrance and central stairwell is on the far right of the photo. To the left, where the hose is being operated, is the patio door to the apartment of origin on the first floor. What do you think of this operation?
    Name:  farragut ct exhibit A.JPG
Views: 868
Size:  33.5 KB


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    123

    Default

    A wide shot from later on in the fire:
    Name:  farragut ct.JPG
Views: 782
Size:  34.9 KB

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Thats not what we mean here when we say garden apt. Here a garden is half below, half above grade, so you would go down a few stairs to enter it.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  4. #4
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    2,094

    Default

    Pitched roof?

  5. #5
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,513

    Default

    Was it out when you left? If it was, you did fine. But no worries, your pictures will get shredded soon by all the arm chair quarterbacks.
    Like chicago, our garden discription is about the same. The 1st floor windows are just above grade.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  6. #6
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    N.J.
    Posts
    1,392

    Default

    Line going in the patio door instead of a window.
    Fire's out...building saved.
    No one hurt.
    Well done.
    Last edited by len1582; 12-15-2006 at 05:06 PM.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    123

    Default

    ChicagoFF: Here a "garden apartment" means a low-rise, generally two to four story, building set back off the street in such a way as to have a lawn or "garden" area for the tenants. The buildings typically have four apartments per floor off a central stairwell and are often connected to similar attached buildings to form rows of two to four buildings. They can be brick or frame constructed, flat or pitched roof. In the D.C. Metro area, they were mostly built from Post WWII to the mid 60's to provide affordable housing. Years ago the late Prof. Francis Brannigan described them as the ghettos of the future and he wasn't far off the mark.

    johnny46: Pitched roof.

    SPFDRum: This wasn't my department; a small city to our east, so all you armchair QB's feel free, I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth later. That's how we learn or hopefully, educate others.
    ______________________________ ____________________

    A couple of more shots:
    Name:  farragutct03.JPG
Views: 738
Size:  14.8 KB
    Name:  farragut04.jpg
Views: 806
Size:  22.5 KB

  8. #8
    firefighter7160
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking Garden Apartments?

    Dident that name come from the Houston Area during the 60'S AND 70'S. The apartments that were made in record speed, No fire codes and Built to burn. Ive been to Houston and have seen these apartments. They take up a large area. Have 100 to 300 units. Built in a square, and has a Garden in the middle. From the photo above that dont look like a true Garden Apartment. All other apartments are just apartments. Looks like they did a good job. If its a true Garden Apartment and they saved some units.....WOW..... Most fires in a true Garden Apartment go the High Alarms, as the fire burns through the attic, with no fire walls.

    www.PineBluffFire.com
    "BEST IN THE SOUTH"
    Last edited by firefighter7160; 12-15-2006 at 05:11 PM.

  9. #9
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    N.J.
    Posts
    1,392

    Default

    Holy Crap !!!!!
    Didn't see the roof shot in the earlier post. Well, some plywood, some tarpaper......

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    123

    Default

    Len:
    Well, actually, one mother and infant were flown to a regional trauma center with smoke inhalation; 40 people homeless;1.5 million in damage and 16 units heavily damaged or destroyed by fire.

  11. #11
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    N.J.
    Posts
    1,392

    Default

    It's too bad about the mother and infant..but these things do happen.
    As far as the 40 displaced that's also a shame, but they're [I]alive [I].
    While considerably damaged the building looks as though it can be repaired.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Westchester Co., NY USA
    Posts
    567

    Default

    Where I am at these are just called apartment buildings. We mostly call "garden style" apartments with a similiar layout, however the middle staircase is open and made often of combustible pressure treated lumber.

    If I could take a picture of a complex where I am at, exactly same layout, look etc. You would think it was the same building with the only exception being the type of glass in the common area entrance.

    If they saved some apartments kudos to them. These fires are extremely difficult to control when they occupy the cockloft area and the ones we have do not have any fire stops or barriers. I have seen where the first arriving engine has pulled the first line to the broken out sliding glass door of the 1st floor apartment. He did confirm the apartment door was closed to the common area, however we did have some discussion during the incident critique about this tactic due to we had yet determined if any civilian occupants were trapped in the bedroom areas. The second line was taken to the second floor apartment for extinguishment there when we realized fire had vented out the back bedroom windows and extended into the cockloft. The 2nd due truck immediately began to aggressively try to trench cut the peak roof ahead of the fire and contain it to the section of units being the involved units were a group of 4 on the D side end. Good thinking by an experienced operations officer with 2 1/2" made a stand, some of the other units we wer in took some water damage however the trench helped, getting water into the attic space while the trench was trying to be completed helped to slow the advance. The trench was never completed on the the rear peak section but it helped enough and we ended up losing 4 total units, vs. 16

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,330

    Default

    BackstepFF

    Looks like a nice job!!!!! How was your water supply, do you have hydrants or do you run a water shuttle ? And or both? Are you from West virginia?

  14. #14
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Thumbs up And............

    BackStepFF - Hi neighbor. Let me add a couple of things, first for those of you beyond the Mid-Atlantic area, these are the prime example of what we call Garden Apartments. They were calling them Garden Apartments when I joined the department back in 1958, so it's nothing new. They were built to the code of the times, way before sprinklers were required. The example that Backstep shows here is located in an area where Adequate Water is not a concern, since Hydrants are spaced on 300 to 500 ft spacing, and water mains are 10 - 12 inch, with larger distribution mains a few blocks away. Before anyone asks, this is not my district, but I've worked several jobs there over the years (Mutual Aid). For those of you with an interest in this subject, there is a book on Firefighting in Garden Apartments, authored by Chief Glenn Gaines (ret.) Fairfax County Va. I'm not sure where to find it though.

    Now, back to work - Tactical Considerations -

    Fire Spread - A common pipe chase feeds utility lines (Gas, Water, Electric, Phone) into each Apartment unit at the kitchen wall. ANY sign of Fire in the Kitchen means a mandatory opening of the Chase to THOROUGHLY examine the area for Fire Spread.
    Life Safety - With many of these developments being Rental Properties, There are often people asleep in midday as well as at night. A "Fine Tooth Comb" search is necessary.
    Structural Stability - Some of these Apartment Developments were built before 1960, most were completed before 1985. Age translates into deterioration, in most cases. I was on a High Angle Rescue Today (See FH.Com Home Page) where the injured person had put his foot thru the roof. This was possibly due to deterioration of the plywood sheeting. As with almost everything else, some Apartments are properly maintained, while others fall into varing states of disrepair.
    Fire (Fuel) Load - Like single family dwellings, apartments are sometimes occupied by packrats. In turn, this is a problem for us from several directions, such as tight spaces to move about, increased difficulty advancing lines and searching, and most important, increased Floor loading. Contents such as Piled newspaper and clothing will absorb lots of water, increasing the floor loading even more.
    Access for Apparatus - A common belief here is that every tenant owns at least 3 cars . Parking areas range from congested to impossible.

    For now, that should give y'all some things to think about. Stay Safe.
    Last edited by hwoods; 12-15-2006 at 10:29 PM.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    University Park, MD
    Posts
    235

    Default adding on to hwoods...

    ...don't forget, all floors might not be accessed off the same stairwell either.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    123

    Default

    hwoods, thanks Chief. The points you mentioned are all 100% accurate and pertinent to this situation.
    IMO, the first photo shows a classic example of how not to fight fire in this type of building. Hoseline placement should support a strategy of maintaining the interior stairway and confining the fire to the apartment of origin. The initial attack hoseline should have been stretched through the main entrance and attacked from the fire apartment’s “front door”, the stairwell entrance.
    I have seen many occasions where the door from the fire apartment to the stairwell was left open. Attacking from a patio door such as we saw here can push fire out into the stairs and cook any occupants who are trying to make their way down, as well as the brothers who will be making their way to the upper floors. I would also strongly question their use of a wide fog pattern. Massive air movement is being introduced into the apartment with this stream as well as copious steam production that would be lethal to anyone still inside.
    I guess what bothers me is this is a bread and butter fire. This department has dozens of similar apartment complexes, they should simply and honestly know better. Garden apartment fires are challenging even when we do everything right. They are full of vertical voids and we often end up chasing the fire through the void spaces and into the attic/cockloft. It has been said that there is no such thing as a “room and contents” fire in a garden apartment because it is almost certain that the fire has already extended.
    Any officer in my department who attacked this fire from the point shown in the photo would, at the very least, get some intensive high-decibel remedial training if not outright disciplinary action.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    123

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dday05 View Post
    BackstepFF

    Looks like a nice job!!!!! How was your water supply, do you have hydrants or do you run a water shuttle ? And or both? Are you from West virginia?
    This fire wasn't in my jurisdiction, it's a nearby town, but I know that they have a good hydrant system on adequate water mains. West Virginia? No, but I went canoeing there once, I don't talk about it much. Pretty country and those fellas sure can pick a banjo!

  18. #18
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Thumbs up We Agree...........

    BCarey - Dean Drive?? Been There, Deck Gunned That.....

    BackstepFF - Your remarks on hoseline placement are in line with my views. I would not totally rule out going thru the patio door IF the door to the common stairway was closed and not compromised AND a covering line was in place to protect evacuation efforts. In the first photo in your post, another area of pressing concern is the Fire venting from the bedroom window and going up the side of the building. "Leapfrogging" is a common means of Fire spread in these structures, and must be dealt with in a decisive manner. In this case, application of water from a hose stream that is directed PARALLEL to the exterior wall, and a floor above the point where the Fire is venting, will provide a "Water Curtain" effect, without compromising ventilation. With an aggressive attack in the Fire apartment, the "Water Curtain" stream would not be needed more than a few minutes. Additional lines above the Fire should be placed as quick as resources allow, and aggressive Truckies should be opening everything as fast as possible consistent with safety. Any exterior areas that were subject to flame impingement (wall over that window) must also be opened from the outside as well as inside.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Essex Junction, VT
    Posts
    409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    In this case, application of water from a hose stream that is directed PARALLEL to the exterior wall, and a floor above the point where the Fire is venting, will provide a "Water Curtain" effect, without compromising ventilation.
    Sorry Harve, but I'm having trouble visualizing what you are saying here. Are you talking about applying the stream inside or outside? I'd appreciate a little more on this. I think I know what your getting at, but I'm not 100% sure.

    Thanks.
    Fir Na Tine
    Fir Na Au Saol

  20. #20
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,515

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BackstepFF View Post
    hwoods, thanks Chief. The points you mentioned are all 100% accurate and pertinent to this situation.
    IMO, the first photo shows a classic example of how not to fight fire in this type of building. Hoseline placement should support a strategy of maintaining the interior stairway and confining the fire to the apartment of origin. The initial attack hoseline should have been stretched through the main entrance and attacked from the fire apartment’s “front door”, the stairwell entrance.
    I have seen many occasions where the door from the fire apartment to the stairwell was left open. Attacking from a patio door such as we saw here can push fire out into the stairs and cook any occupants who are trying to make their way down, as well as the brothers who will be making their way to the upper floors. I would also strongly question their use of a wide fog pattern. Massive air movement is being introduced into the apartment with this stream as well as copious steam production that would be lethal to anyone still inside.
    I guess what bothers me is this is a bread and butter fire. This department has dozens of similar apartment complexes, they should simply and honestly know better. Garden apartment fires are challenging even when we do everything right. They are full of vertical voids and we often end up chasing the fire through the void spaces and into the attic/cockloft. It has been said that there is no such thing as a “room and contents” fire in a garden apartment because it is almost certain that the fire has already extended.
    Any officer in my department who attacked this fire from the point shown in the photo would, at the very least, get some intensive high-decibel remedial training if not outright disciplinary action.
    Although I agree with most of what you said and agree that you can apply lessons learned from similar previous events, you still have to treat every incident as a singular event.

    In this fire the door from the apartment to the common interior hall was most likely not left open. This is evident by the fact that there is NO smoke what-so-ever coming from the area leading to the interior stairs. If it was not left open, then it was most likely also left locked and dead-bolted which would increase the amount of time it would take to ultimately get water on the fire. Whether planned or not, entering where they did with a closed door did in fact protect the common interior stairs by extinguishing the fire in the apartment and preventing the fire from extending through into the common area. Again this is evident in the photo where after knocking down the fire on the first floor, they did in fact return to the common stairs and I assume proceed upstairs. Even at this point there is no smoke in the common area. I would assume they never opened the apartment door. In this situation, going through the common area and entering through the apartment door would have most certainly made matters worse in that common area.

    Had there been heavy smoke or fire in the common area, then I agree your tactic would be the only way to go.

    As far as the exterior stream directed at the fire in the attic, they are accomplishing nothing. We typically deploy 2-3 lines on these types of fires in order to extinguish the main body and cut off extension in the attic.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. World Of Fire Report: 01-01-06
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-07-2006, 07:56 PM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 12-18-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-24-2005, 09:42 PM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 06-16-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-20-2005, 08:53 PM
  4. Garden apartment Survey
    By smokeeaterbrick in forum Career/Paid Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-30-2003, 11:45 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts