1. #51
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    "I think the brothers in NY aren't permitted to cut it which is a shame in some circumstances"

    We are "permitted" to cut peaked roofs.....but we only do it when it makes sense to do so....which the Chief will decide. So it's not that much of a "shame"....I have yet to operate at a peaked roof private dwelling fire (which there is no shortage of in NYC) where afterward we said "if only the roof were opened".

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    Shot gun shacks or shot gun houses are small, normally 700-900 sq ft houses with maybe a couple of bedrooms, kitchen, bathroom and living room. They are called this because it is said that a shot gun blast could go all the way through the house.

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    Talking

    i see. thanks for clearing that up, never heard the term before.

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    A narrow house without a hallway. Built mostly in the south.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 03-18-2008 at 03:00 PM.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Thumbs up

    nice diagram. damn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    "I think the brothers in NY aren't permitted to cut it which is a shame in some circumstances"

    We are "permitted" to cut peaked roofs.....but we only do it when it makes sense to do so....which the Chief will decide. So it's not that much of a "shame"....I have yet to operate at a peaked roof private dwelling fire (which there is no shortage of in NYC) where afterward we said "if only the roof were opened".
    Bro, I was refering to Q decking...not peaked roofs.

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    "I am not saying that departments that vert PD's are wrong for doing it."


    I'll say it then. Vertically venting a peaked roof (typical PD attic space) for fire that is 2 or 3 floors away is a senseless waste of manpower.


    MattyJ,

    I agree with alot of what you guys have to say but that comment isn't correct.
    I can see where u are coming from with why you made the comment but you can have a fire in a first floor room in a balloon frame house and if it gets in the walls you will need to vent the roof because the fire will soon be in the attic. Same with a basement fire in a balloon frame house. A large majority of our fires are in balloon frame houses so we have to more times than not on good fire cut the roof. So saying cutting a roof for a 1st floor fire being a senseless waste of manpower isnt correct. I would agree with you with it being not needed cutting a platform constructed home with fire in the first floor, but a vast majority of our multiple storied houses are balloon frame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squad1LT View Post
    "I am not saying that departments that vert PD's are wrong for doing it."


    I'll say it then. Vertically venting a peaked roof (typical PD attic space) for fire that is 2 or 3 floors away is a senseless waste of manpower.


    MattyJ,

    I agree with alot of what you guys have to say but that comment isn't correct.
    I can see where u are coming from with why you made the comment but you can have a fire in a first floor room in a balloon frame house and if it gets in the walls you will need to vent the roof because the fire will soon be in the attic. Same with a basement fire in a balloon frame house. A large majority of our fires are in balloon frame houses so we have to more times than not on good fire cut the roof. So saying cutting a roof for a 1st floor fire being a senseless waste of manpower isnt correct. I would agree with you with it being not needed cutting a platform constructed home with fire in the first floor, but a vast majority of our multiple storied houses are balloon frame.

    That is a situation where it may be called for, fire extended into the attic space by way of Balloon frame construction. I would argue though, that cutting the roof simply because fire is in the basement or 1st floor of a Balloon frame (not yet extended to the attic) could actually cause the fire to be drawn into the attic. So again, if fire is not in the attic or extended into it from a lower floor fire, it is a waste of manpower, and causes more damage than neccesary.

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    Cool q decking

    you are correct 37 truck we do not cut q decking or gypsum roofs. jg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFDLT1 View Post
    2. We have a lot of shotgun houses,(jonny if you aren't sure what one is ask Champ he learned the term in Charlotte) so it is easier to just pull the gables,take some windows, get in there man up pull some ceilings, throw a ppv in the door, and put the SOB out.
    Are you saying that you will put a PPV in the door with an uncontrolled attic fire?

    If I were to go to the roof depending on the pitch I would take a haligan, chain saw, flat head axe, and at least a 6' to 8' pike pole.
    Flat head - Yes. the best use I could ever see for an axe on the roof would be to smash the decking - so why would anybody bring a pick head for that?

    Originally posted by MattyJ
    That is a situation where it may be called for, fire extended into the attic space by way of Balloon frame construction. I would argue though, that cutting the roof simply because fire is in the basement or 1st floor of a Balloon frame (not yet extended to the attic) could actually cause the fire to be drawn into the attic. So again, if fire is not in the attic or extended into it from a lower floor fire, it is a waste of manpower, and causes more damage than neccesary.
    That's exactly what I was thinking - if you have a basement fire in a baloon frame and it spreads into the attic, then you have an attic fire...that just happened to spread from the basement - so then you can treat it as an attic fire.

    Our standard would be to vertically vent attic fires immediately. We feel that this is reasonably high on the priority list for this type of fire. I do like the idea of pulling gable vents, etc, and we are starting to equip our apparatus with 2'-6' 320gpm piercing nozzles for some of the difficult situations. It seems that many fire departments just have way too many roof burn offs with nothing being done, so we figured we had to do something.

    I don't have a problem with somebody vertically venting for a smokey top floor fire in a PD, but it would be way down my priorities list in most situations.

    Vertical vent in a PD on anything besides an attic fire or possibly a top floor fire seems silly.

    Tools: flathead axe, Halligan, 6' steel shaft halligan hook, and Cutters Edge saw (we're about to place our first 14" CE rotary saw into service). If I were relatively sure, based on construction, that it was just an older plank roof, I would probably leave the saw and just attack it with the backside of the flathead.
    Last edited by BlitzfireSolo; 01-06-2007 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Clarification

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    "I don't have a problem with somebody vertically venting for a smokey top floor fire in a PD, but it would be way down my priorities list in most situations."


    I dont see any reason to cut open a roof simply to release a smoke condition. in an effort to control fire spread, yes....smoke no. I was taught when I came on the job not to take windows if it was simply to vent smoke (heat is another story). To relieve smoke (particulary on the floors above) we open windows. I remember an article by the late Tom Brennan were he basically wrote....if you can stand up (little or no heat) to open the window...it does'nt need to be broken. The same applies to the roof, if there is no fire in the attic, than cutting a hole is causing unneccesary damage, and create's unneccesary work, and risk for the firefighters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    "I don't have a problem with somebody vertically venting for a smokey top floor fire in a PD, but it would be way down my priorities list in most situations."


    I dont see any reason to cut open a roof simply to release a smoke condition. in an effort to control fire spread, yes....smoke no. I was taught when I came on the job not to take windows if it was simply to vent smoke (heat is another story). To relieve smoke (particulary on the floors above) we open windows. I remember an article by the late Tom Brennan were he basically wrote....if you can stand up (little or no heat) to open the window...it does'nt need to be broken. The same applies to the roof, if there is no fire in the attic, than cutting a hole is causing unneccesary damage, and create's unneccesary work, and risk for the firefighters.
    Well spoken.

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    I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else on this topic. We routinely go to the roof on peaked roofs. You guys don't. Whatever....... sissies!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else on this topic. We routinely go to the roof on peaked roofs. You guys don't. Whatever....... sissies!

    ......morons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    Are you saying that you will put a PPV in the door with an uncontrolled attic fire?
    No, I wasn't saying that. I see how what I said could make you see that. We use the PPV for fires in PD's what are room and contents or even a couple of rooms burning even if it is a fire on the second floor of a house after we take some windows.

    With attic fires we pull the gables and ceilings. After the fire is out we will use the fan to clear out any remaining smoke.

    I like having taking the ax and having the ax on the roof incase something goes wrong with the saw. I agree that it is much easier to smash the roof decking with the back of the ax head instead of trying to cut it with the ax so that your ax head doesn't get caught in the roof.

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    with our new truck, we added a d-handle pike pole at the tip, to assist in pusing down the ceiling, used it once and really showed a difference...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamNichols View Post
    with our new truck, we added a d-handle pike pole at the tip, to assist in pusing down the ceiling, used it once and really showed a difference...
    are you using the D to push the ceiling down or the head of the pole?

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    "". I would argue though, that cutting the roof simply because fire is in the basement or 1st floor of a Balloon frame (not yet extended to the attic) could actually cause the fire to be drawn into the attic.""


    I would agree with you that you shouldnt cut a roof just because a fire is in a room or basement in a balloon frame. I didnt say that, I said if it is in the walls you need to do that. Cutting the roof in that case will in fact draw it up and out of the house, but that is the goal and is a good thing. Fire running the walls in a balloon frame can run in all directions so IF the fire is in the walls giving it a good place to go up and out of the house is a good thing.


    Here is a quote from Tom Brennan:
    "Platform construction does not need roof cutting immediatley. Firefighters can make better use of those ladders to ascend to the second floor for interior search from alternate entry points. In balloon construction, opening the roof as soon as possible is vital to the firefight, orderly search and removal operations, and to stop the surprise spread of fire anywhere in the building that causes so much of our firefighter entrapement in structures of this construction." quote from Roof fire in balloon dwelling, "Photo lessons with Tom Brennan" Firenuggets.com
    Last edited by Squad1LT; 01-06-2007 at 05:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 37truck View Post
    are you using the D to push the ceiling down or the head of the pole?
    I think he means that he's using the D handle to aid in grasping the pole and keeping his hands from sliding.
    Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

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    Go put your pussy 2 1/2" lines away kiddies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KEEPBACK200FEET View Post
    I think he means that he's using the D handle to aid in grasping the pole and keeping his hands from sliding.
    The draw back from pushing down the ceiling using the head of a pike pole is that it will penetrate through the drywal without punching down a large section. It also tends to get hung up and withdrawing the tool is difficult. This is where most firefighters end up losing their grip and let go of the tool when pulling hard to extract it. You are better off using the butt end of the handle or the D (which has even more surface area) to punch down the ceiling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 37truck View Post
    The draw back from pushing down the ceiling using the head of a pike pole is that it will penetrate through the drywal without punching down a large section. It also tends to get hung up and withdrawing the tool is difficult. This is where most firefighters end up losing their grip and let go of the tool when pulling hard to extract it. You are better off using the butt end of the handle or the D (which has even more surface area) to punch down the ceiling.
    While I'm not a big LAFD fan, I will say that a 6' trash hook works very well for pushing ceilings in from the roof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 37truck View Post
    The draw back from pushing down the ceiling using the head of a pike pole is that it will penetrate through the drywal without punching down a large section. It also tends to get hung up and withdrawing the tool is difficult. This is where most firefighters end up losing their grip and let go of the tool when pulling hard to extract it. You are better off using the butt end of the handle or the D (which has even more surface area) to punch down the ceiling.
    That's why I like a New York Roof Hook when going up top rather than taking a pike pole.
    Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Go put your pussy 2 1/2" lines away kiddies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer343

    By the way KEEPBACK200FEET, you're so dramatic!

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    wow..you guys reply quick on this thread...

    the handle side aids in pushing the ceilng down due to a larger surface area. as pointed out, the pike side wouldn't push out as much ceiling.

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    Default smoke removal????????

    mattyj
    “dont see any reason to cut open a roof simply to release a smoke condition. in an effort to control fire spread, yes....smoke no”
    17 firemen lost in 2006 were caught or trapped 2 were lost, 9 died from asphyxiation, and 9 from burns. 5 died during S & R. Smoke is a major killer of firemen. We get lost run out of air and perish performing our duties do to smoke.
    In the words of FDNY Vinnie Dunn” Most who are caught in flashover were lost prior to being caught in this rapid fire event.
    Why would we not utilize a tried and true method of getting rid of smoke which historically has proven fatal to a large number of us. The best part is not only does is it one of the most effective method to removing smoke which makes for a safer work environment for us but it also controls fire spread, increases victim survivability, reduces backdraft and flashover, which are caused by high heat and smoke which you stated you would not use this tactic to get rid of.
    These are a few quotes from the late and great Tom Brennan
    ” The greatest life-saving thing we can do on the fire ground is to put the fire out before anyone, including firefighters, suffers serious injury or death. The second greatest life-saving effort is in effective ventilation to allow the fire fight to proceed with all possible speed and efficiency — including search and including location and removing (rescue) victims.

    “Also, there are fireground events or phenomena that can cause catastrophic results during the fire fight, and they are flashover, smoke explosion, and roll-over. All three events can be controlled by primary ventilation and secondary cooling of the fuels” Tom Brennan

    “Horizontal ventilation is a secondary consideration to vertical ventilation for interior firefighting operations. As a matter of fact, without it being accomplished, you may be defensive in your operations shortly. “ Tom Brennan

    “Without vertical ventilation, we have no choice except defensive strategic concepts on the structural fireground” Tom Brennan

    Now I am unsure about the rest of you but I think smoke is the one of the number one reasons we should be performing vertical operations. By doing this we are making it safer for all operating inside. Although it is a aggressive tactic that does place our personnel in difficult situations the operations of these 2 means a safer scene for many depending on your agencies response characteristics. By relieving this smoke we also increase our visibility which in turn makes for faster and safer S & R and reduces the risk of us falling through floors and openings that previously we would have not seen. Do all fires need vented vertically? Absolutely not but as with any fireground tactic there is a time and place even on PD’s for the removal of smoke

    37 truck “The draw back from pushing down the ceiling using the head of a pike pole is that it will penetrate through the drywall without punching down a large section. It also tends to get hung up and withdrawing the tool is difficult. This is where most firefighters end up losing their grip and let go of the tool when pulling hard to extract it. You are better off using the butt end of the handle or the D (which has even more surface area) to punch down the ceiling.”

    A good way when punching dry wall is to tap along the trusses or rafters lightly with the d handle to loosen the fasteners prior to making your aggressive punch through. My agency has had better luck with larger surface area tools the trash rake was a good example used

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    Default video link

    http://www.king5.com/perl/common/vid...505tacfire.wmv

    Undisputable effectiveness on smoke removal, controlling fire, reducing heat and steam burns do to channeling it out the chimney we just created all in 2 to 3 minutes. Interesting concept

    JohnyIrons I was looking forward to your responses on our last conversation in the videos forum.

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