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  1. #41
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Default FDNY question

    I as understand it, venting peaked roofs is a rarity in NYC. Does the roof get opened if the fire is in the attic?
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD


  2. #42
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    I as understand it, venting peaked roofs is a rarity in NYC. Does the roof get opened if the fire is in the attic?
    We VENT peaked roof PDs. We just DONT cut peaked roof PDs. Vertical venting isn't the only type of venting available to us. In the event of heavy fire in an attic, were the engine can not make it in...then vertical venting will be done via a tower ladder. I can tell you that in my area, we really dont have "attics", that space is actually a room with knee walls and an open staircase that will lead from the 1st floor to the top (inline). I know that I have operated from the stair well, moving up, hitting the ceiling space, and haven't had a problem. And after fielding this question to the senior men, they can't remember a time were they were stopped from making the top floor. Personnaly, I would rather the horizontal venting, and leaving the roof intact so what ever water I put up there won't just go right out the hole. Also from the staircase, I can hit the four corners of the roof better. And the weight of the line is supported by the stairs, or by me with one knee on the line......but....that is only in my area. I can't really tell you about the rest of the city. Most of the PDs in my area were built from the 1800s to about the 1920s.
    IACOJ Member

  3. #43
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    Bottom line.... basically unless the fire is directly under the peaked roof, we dont waist time cutting it. If fire is in the attic (as I said..directly under the roof) than the Chief has the option of calling for a Tower Ladder to do it, but even that isn't seen too often. The roofmen vent and search the 2nd floor bedrooms from portable ladders.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 01-03-2007 at 10:52 PM.

  4. #44
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    Matty Vin and FFred, dont try and explain it, ive done it 3 different times and no one gets it! They all say well so and so says to do it, and I say its not worth our time. You cant Vent a peaked roof in the amount of time you can do it in an OMD or a Brownstone or Frame.

  5. #45
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Take er easy jonny. I was just asking a question. Not questioning you or your department.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  6. #46
    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    Default

    it depends on the pitch but typically a
    Halligan
    Chain Saw
    Axe
    Long Pike Pole or the National Hook per the text book guys.

    For commercial...ehhhh

    after the last fiasco...
    I would prefer two chainsaws with the same equipment

  7. #47
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    Jonnyirons2- I see your point and agree with you based upon my situation and department. We don't really vert vent PD's for a couple of reasons.
    1. We are strapped for manpower, we typically only have about 8-11 guys initally on the fireground.
    2. We have a lot of shotgun houses,(jonny if you aren't sure what one is ask Champ he learned the term in Charlotte) so it is easier to just pull the gables,take some windows, get in there man up pull some ceilings, throw a ppv in the door, and put the SOB out.
    3. Even in our larger PD's we take some windows and use aggressive firefighting to mitigate the situation.
    4. In our 2 story PD's a lot of citizens put down plywood and then store all of their Christmas crap and other stuff up there, so if we were to vent such a roof for something other than an attic fire it would be a pain in the ***** trying to push down through all of that ***** to make a hole in the ceiling.

    I am not saying that departments that vert PD's are wrong for doing it. If we had the manpower off the get go we might do it as well. It is just different kicks for different folks. Not a lot of vert venting is down in this area on PD's, but we are seeing more and more of it. In fact just last night I heard a neighboring department call for it in an attic fire, and it is done quite a bit in what I would call a garden apt.

    If I were to go to the roof depending on the pitch I would take a haligan, chain saw, flat head axe, and at least a 6' to 8' pike pole.

  8. #48
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    Question

    2. We have a lot of shotgun houses

    what's a shotgun house?

    "if you aren't sure what one is ask Champ he learned the term in Charlotte)"

    how about it champ?

  9. #49
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    "I am not saying that departments that vert PD's are wrong for doing it."


    I'll say it then. Vertically venting a peaked roof (typical PD attic space) for fire that is 2 or 3 floors away is a senseless waste of manpower.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic7 View Post
    Sorry I did not mention that, we run a 2-3 initial truck crew, and we take a saw to the roof about every time, either a ventmaster chain or a warthog circular.
    Like I said before unless it is an unusual circumstance your better off opening up horizontally. Like one of the other brothers said earlier...you only need to open up the roof when the fire is on the top floor. On a flat roof of ordinary construction, one of the biggest reasons to get a hole in the roof is limit the horzontal fire spread in the cockloft. I am a big fan of rotary saws for this type of work. Having an aggressive 12 tooth blade makes short work of cutting large holes required for these buildings. The biggest drawback with chainsaws are that once you take the edge off the chain it will no longer cut no matter how hard you force it. Also if their is a rubber membrane roof and you get any of it in the chain it can throw the chain off the drive sprocket.
    But you gotta use what you have and if the chainsaw is all you have then run with it.
    As for the hooks, I prefer the roof hook if avaliable just for the reason of it's prying capablility that you really don't get with a pike pole. A halligan is another great tool on the roof. I don't waste my time taking an ax with me on a commercial. If the saw doesn't run (probably because somebody didn't do their maintenance check) you will never get a big enough hole in the roof in a timely manner with the ax with your manpower.
    I will also use the same 12 tooth blade to cut the Q-decking found on strip mall roofs. I think the brothers in NY aren't permitted to cut it which is a shame in some circumstances. Also the sheet metal roof on factories. Just use common sense when operating on these or any other roof for that matter. With light weight trusses, metal and wood, if you feel it is safe to be on, get the hole made and get off immediately. Stay safe

    What's a shotgun house? I really don't want any of Ciampo's BS.

  11. #51
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    "I think the brothers in NY aren't permitted to cut it which is a shame in some circumstances"

    We are "permitted" to cut peaked roofs.....but we only do it when it makes sense to do so....which the Chief will decide. So it's not that much of a "shame"....I have yet to operate at a peaked roof private dwelling fire (which there is no shortage of in NYC) where afterward we said "if only the roof were opened".

  12. #52
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    Shot gun shacks or shot gun houses are small, normally 700-900 sq ft houses with maybe a couple of bedrooms, kitchen, bathroom and living room. They are called this because it is said that a shot gun blast could go all the way through the house.

  13. #53
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    Talking

    i see. thanks for clearing that up, never heard the term before.

  14. #54
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    A narrow house without a hallway. Built mostly in the south.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 03-18-2008 at 03:00 PM.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Thumbs up

    nice diagram. damn.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    "I think the brothers in NY aren't permitted to cut it which is a shame in some circumstances"

    We are "permitted" to cut peaked roofs.....but we only do it when it makes sense to do so....which the Chief will decide. So it's not that much of a "shame"....I have yet to operate at a peaked roof private dwelling fire (which there is no shortage of in NYC) where afterward we said "if only the roof were opened".
    Bro, I was refering to Q decking...not peaked roofs.

  17. #57
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    "I am not saying that departments that vert PD's are wrong for doing it."


    I'll say it then. Vertically venting a peaked roof (typical PD attic space) for fire that is 2 or 3 floors away is a senseless waste of manpower.


    MattyJ,

    I agree with alot of what you guys have to say but that comment isn't correct.
    I can see where u are coming from with why you made the comment but you can have a fire in a first floor room in a balloon frame house and if it gets in the walls you will need to vent the roof because the fire will soon be in the attic. Same with a basement fire in a balloon frame house. A large majority of our fires are in balloon frame houses so we have to more times than not on good fire cut the roof. So saying cutting a roof for a 1st floor fire being a senseless waste of manpower isnt correct. I would agree with you with it being not needed cutting a platform constructed home with fire in the first floor, but a vast majority of our multiple storied houses are balloon frame.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squad1LT View Post
    "I am not saying that departments that vert PD's are wrong for doing it."


    I'll say it then. Vertically venting a peaked roof (typical PD attic space) for fire that is 2 or 3 floors away is a senseless waste of manpower.


    MattyJ,

    I agree with alot of what you guys have to say but that comment isn't correct.
    I can see where u are coming from with why you made the comment but you can have a fire in a first floor room in a balloon frame house and if it gets in the walls you will need to vent the roof because the fire will soon be in the attic. Same with a basement fire in a balloon frame house. A large majority of our fires are in balloon frame houses so we have to more times than not on good fire cut the roof. So saying cutting a roof for a 1st floor fire being a senseless waste of manpower isnt correct. I would agree with you with it being not needed cutting a platform constructed home with fire in the first floor, but a vast majority of our multiple storied houses are balloon frame.

    That is a situation where it may be called for, fire extended into the attic space by way of Balloon frame construction. I would argue though, that cutting the roof simply because fire is in the basement or 1st floor of a Balloon frame (not yet extended to the attic) could actually cause the fire to be drawn into the attic. So again, if fire is not in the attic or extended into it from a lower floor fire, it is a waste of manpower, and causes more damage than neccesary.

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    Cool q decking

    you are correct 37 truck we do not cut q decking or gypsum roofs. jg.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFDLT1 View Post
    2. We have a lot of shotgun houses,(jonny if you aren't sure what one is ask Champ he learned the term in Charlotte) so it is easier to just pull the gables,take some windows, get in there man up pull some ceilings, throw a ppv in the door, and put the SOB out.
    Are you saying that you will put a PPV in the door with an uncontrolled attic fire?

    If I were to go to the roof depending on the pitch I would take a haligan, chain saw, flat head axe, and at least a 6' to 8' pike pole.
    Flat head - Yes. the best use I could ever see for an axe on the roof would be to smash the decking - so why would anybody bring a pick head for that?

    Originally posted by MattyJ
    That is a situation where it may be called for, fire extended into the attic space by way of Balloon frame construction. I would argue though, that cutting the roof simply because fire is in the basement or 1st floor of a Balloon frame (not yet extended to the attic) could actually cause the fire to be drawn into the attic. So again, if fire is not in the attic or extended into it from a lower floor fire, it is a waste of manpower, and causes more damage than neccesary.
    That's exactly what I was thinking - if you have a basement fire in a baloon frame and it spreads into the attic, then you have an attic fire...that just happened to spread from the basement - so then you can treat it as an attic fire.

    Our standard would be to vertically vent attic fires immediately. We feel that this is reasonably high on the priority list for this type of fire. I do like the idea of pulling gable vents, etc, and we are starting to equip our apparatus with 2'-6' 320gpm piercing nozzles for some of the difficult situations. It seems that many fire departments just have way too many roof burn offs with nothing being done, so we figured we had to do something.

    I don't have a problem with somebody vertically venting for a smokey top floor fire in a PD, but it would be way down my priorities list in most situations.

    Vertical vent in a PD on anything besides an attic fire or possibly a top floor fire seems silly.

    Tools: flathead axe, Halligan, 6' steel shaft halligan hook, and Cutters Edge saw (we're about to place our first 14" CE rotary saw into service). If I were relatively sure, based on construction, that it was just an older plank roof, I would probably leave the saw and just attack it with the backside of the flathead.
    Last edited by BlitzfireSolo; 01-06-2007 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Clarification

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