Tools to the roof?

[MattyJ]

"I don't have a problem with somebody vertically venting for a smokey top floor fire in a PD, but it would be way down my priorities list in most situations."


I dont see any reason to cut open a roof simply to release a smoke condition. in an effort to control fire spread, yes....smoke no. I was taught when I came on the job not to take windows if it was simply to vent smoke (heat is another story). To relieve smoke (particulary on the floors above) we open windows. I remember an article by the late Tom Brennan were he basically wrote....if you can stand up (little or no heat) to open the window...it does'nt need to be broken. The same applies to the roof, if there is no fire in the attic, than cutting a hole is causing unneccesary damage, and create's unneccesary work, and risk for the firefighters.

[37truck]

"I don't have a problem with somebody vertically venting for a smokey top floor fire in a PD, but it would be way down my priorities list in most situations."


I dont see any reason to cut open a roof simply to release a smoke condition. in an effort to control fire spread, yes....smoke no. I was taught when I came on the job not to take windows if it was simply to vent smoke (heat is another story). To relieve smoke (particulary on the floors above) we open windows. I remember an article by the late Tom Brennan were he basically wrote....if you can stand up (little or no heat) to open the window...it does'nt need to be broken. The same applies to the roof, if there is no fire in the attic, than cutting a hole is causing unneccesary damage, and create's unneccesary work, and risk for the firefighters.

Well spoken.

[ChicagoFF]

I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else on this topic. We routinely go to the roof on peaked roofs. You guys don't. Whatever....... sissies!

[MattyJ]

I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else on this topic. We routinely go to the roof on peaked roofs. You guys don't. Whatever....... sissies!

......morons!

[GFDLT1]

Are you saying that you will put a PPV in the door with an uncontrolled attic fire?

No, I wasn't saying that. I see how what I said could make you see that. We use the PPV for fires in PD's what are room and contents or even a couple of rooms burning even if it is a fire on the second floor of a house after we take some windows.

With attic fires we pull the gables and ceilings. After the fire is out we will use the fan to clear out any remaining smoke.

I like having taking the ax and having the ax on the roof incase something goes wrong with the saw. I agree that it is much easier to smash the roof decking with the back of the ax head instead of trying to cut it with the ax so that your ax head doesn't get caught in the roof.

[AdamNichols]

with our new truck, we added a d-handle pike pole at the tip, to assist in pusing down the ceiling, used it once and really showed a difference...

[37truck]

with our new truck, we added a d-handle pike pole at the tip, to assist in pusing down the ceiling, used it once and really showed a difference...

are you using the D to push the ceiling down or the head of the pole?

[Squad1LT]

"". I would argue though, that cutting the roof simply because fire is in the basement or 1st floor of a Balloon frame (not yet extended to the attic) could actually cause the fire to be drawn into the attic.""


I would agree with you that you shouldnt cut a roof just because a fire is in a room or basement in a balloon frame. I didnt say that, I said if it is in the walls you need to do that. Cutting the roof in that case will in fact draw it up and out of the house, but that is the goal and is a good thing. Fire running the walls in a balloon frame can run in all directions so IF the fire is in the walls giving it a good place to go up and out of the house is a good thing.


Here is a quote from Tom Brennan:
"Platform construction does not need roof cutting immediatley. Firefighters can make better use of those ladders to ascend to the second floor for interior search from alternate entry points. In balloon construction, opening the roof as soon as possible is vital to the firefight, orderly search and removal operations, and to stop the surprise spread of fire anywhere in the building that causes so much of our firefighter entrapement in structures of this construction." quote from Roof fire in balloon dwelling, "Photo lessons with Tom Brennan" Firenuggets.com

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

are you using the D to push the ceiling down or the head of the pole?

I think he means that he's using the D handle to aid in grasping the pole and keeping his hands from sliding.

[37truck]

I think he means that he's using the D handle to aid in grasping the pole and keeping his hands from sliding.

The draw back from pushing down the ceiling using the head of a pike pole is that it will penetrate through the drywal without punching down a large section. It also tends to get hung up and withdrawing the tool is difficult. This is where most firefighters end up losing their grip and let go of the tool when pulling hard to extract it. You are better off using the butt end of the handle or the D (which has even more surface area) to punch down the ceiling.

[BlitzfireSolo]

The draw back from pushing down the ceiling using the head of a pike pole is that it will penetrate through the drywal without punching down a large section. It also tends to get hung up and withdrawing the tool is difficult. This is where most firefighters end up losing their grip and let go of the tool when pulling hard to extract it. You are better off using the butt end of the handle or the D (which has even more surface area) to punch down the ceiling.

While I'm not a big LAFD fan, I will say that a 6' trash hook works very well for pushing ceilings in from the roof.

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

The draw back from pushing down the ceiling using the head of a pike pole is that it will penetrate through the drywal without punching down a large section. It also tends to get hung up and withdrawing the tool is difficult. This is where most firefighters end up losing their grip and let go of the tool when pulling hard to extract it. You are better off using the butt end of the handle or the D (which has even more surface area) to punch down the ceiling.

That's why I like a New York Roof Hook when going up top rather than taking a pike pole.

[AdamNichols]

wow..you guys reply quick on this thread...

the handle side aids in pushing the ceilng down due to a larger surface area. as pointed out, the pike side wouldn't push out as much ceiling.

[hr1corl8304]

mattyj
“dont see any reason to cut open a roof simply to release a smoke condition. in an effort to control fire spread, yes....smoke no”
17 firemen lost in 2006 were caught or trapped 2 were lost, 9 died from asphyxiation, and 9 from burns. 5 died during S & R. Smoke is a major killer of firemen. We get lost run out of air and perish performing our duties do to smoke.
In the words of FDNY Vinnie Dunn” Most who are caught in flashover were lost prior to being caught in this rapid fire event.
Why would we not utilize a tried and true method of getting rid of smoke which historically has proven fatal to a large number of us. The best part is not only does is it one of the most effective method to removing smoke which makes for a safer work environment for us but it also controls fire spread, increases victim survivability, reduces backdraft and flashover, which are caused by high heat and smoke which you stated you would not use this tactic to get rid of.
These are a few quotes from the late and great Tom Brennan
” The greatest life-saving thing we can do on the fire ground is to put the fire out before anyone, including firefighters, suffers serious injury or death. The second greatest life-saving effort is in effective ventilation to allow the fire fight to proceed with all possible speed and efficiency — including search and including location and removing (rescue) victims.

“Also, there are fireground events or phenomena that can cause catastrophic results during the fire fight, and they are flashover, smoke explosion, and roll-over. All three events can be controlled by primary ventilation and secondary cooling of the fuels” Tom Brennan

“Horizontal ventilation is a secondary consideration to vertical ventilation for interior firefighting operations. As a matter of fact, without it being accomplished, you may be defensive in your operations shortly. “ Tom Brennan

“Without vertical ventilation, we have no choice except defensive strategic concepts on the structural fireground” Tom Brennan

Now I am unsure about the rest of you but I think smoke is the one of the number one reasons we should be performing vertical operations. By doing this we are making it safer for all operating inside. Although it is a aggressive tactic that does place our personnel in difficult situations the operations of these 2 means a safer scene for many depending on your agencies response characteristics. By relieving this smoke we also increase our visibility which in turn makes for faster and safer S & R and reduces the risk of us falling through floors and openings that previously we would have not seen. Do all fires need vented vertically? Absolutely not but as with any fireground tactic there is a time and place even on PD’s for the removal of smoke

37 truck “The draw back from pushing down the ceiling using the head of a pike pole is that it will penetrate through the drywall without punching down a large section. It also tends to get hung up and withdrawing the tool is difficult. This is where most firefighters end up losing their grip and let go of the tool when pulling hard to extract it. You are better off using the butt end of the handle or the D (which has even more surface area) to punch down the ceiling.”

A good way when punching dry wall is to tap along the trusses or rafters lightly with the d handle to loosen the fasteners prior to making your aggressive punch through. My agency has had better luck with larger surface area tools the trash rake was a good example used

[hr1corl8304]

http://www.king5.com/perl/common/vid...505tacfire.wmv

Undisputable effectiveness on smoke removal, controlling fire, reducing heat and steam burns do to channeling it out the chimney we just created all in 2 to 3 minutes. Interesting concept

JohnyIrons I was looking forward to your responses on our last conversation in the videos forum.

[engine13A]

When we go to the roof for ventilation the tool selection is up to the outside truck guys and the officer..we usually take a roof ladder, chain saw, rubbish hook or pike poles. Every truckman carries an axe. The decision to vent is usually based on the observations from the roof crew.

[FFFRED]

hr1corl8304,

Bringing up Chiefs Dunn and Brennan on the subject of vertical ventilation in PD's isn't really a good way of supporting your argument as neither of these men subscribe to your concept of vertical ventilation in peaked roof dwellings.

Those quotes you have taken from Tom Brennan are in reference to flat roof structures and out of the context in which he was speaking. Neither I, MattyJ nor any other FDNY member would disagree that vertical ventilation in structures with flat roofs is absolutely critical. Vertical Ventilation for Peaked roof dwellings is a secondary consideration at best around here and anyone who knows anything about FDNY operations in PDs knows we don't typcially cut Peaked roofs and only from TL buckets.

Here are some more quotes from the late Capt. Tom Brennan and one is a continuation of the same column that you took your quotes from, only you left off the part that didn't support your argument.

-"Vertical Ventilation — for flat rooftop floor fires, you can drop a vent team off with a hardware store of tools. For peak roofs, it provides a stable work platform to cut a hole in a flimsy roof covering that probably would never get cut."

-"Peak-roof, private dwellings are another matter. I usually advocate spending all the quality initial-arrival operation time locating the fire and removing the interior occupants. Roof venting of these buildings does not usually improve conditions in time to make a difference with the aggressive interior attack and the search-and-removal efforts."

-"Forget today’s peak-roof venting and get the undermanned fire crews inside to isolate the fire and search for and remove the civilian life load. Eighty percent of the civilians that die in fire each year die in these buildings."

-"Vent the peak roof if necessary with the second arriving hordes — whatever they are: second alarm, mutual aid, call-backs, etc."

-"Second, there are refinements to those, and one of the rules is that vertical ventilation is conducted first. EXCEPT in three instances:

a.Fires in peak roof, platform-construction, private dwellings.

b. True high-rise structures — usually over 75 to 100 feet.

C.Operations in structures wherein there is an odor of leaking product — gas or liquid."

-"Now with all that said, there are three times where vertical ventilation is too dangerous to perform, ineffective and wasteful of time, and more important than vertical. (Just so you have the whole picture.)

Peak-roof dwellings that are NOT of balloon construction — delay ventilation of the roof until later, get the people out.

High-rise structures especially apartment dwellings — horizontal ventilation, not vertical, is the great asset to the firefight.

Buildings and structures wherein there is a release of heavier than air combustible gas.

But these three things are enough for another lecture."

And as for Vincent Dunn on his own website under his Strategy and Tactics Challenge the answer to the primary ventilation consideration for the Private Dwelling is: "4.Primary verntilation windows off porch" Refering to horizontal ventilation. And in his 50 ways FFs live column: the only time he mentions peaked roof work is in reference to when fire is directly underneath the roof itself buring the beams and rafters...etc.

So what should we take from this?...that those two men advocated that unless fire is in the attic itself, vertical ventilation in PDs is a secondary consideration.

FTM-PTB

[RFDACM02]

Very nicely explained FFFRED. As I've noted before, vertical ventilation in PD's is probably the most overused tactic we see. At least in the Northeast. It seems FF 1+2 programs spend so much time on vertical venting that it is used whenever a line is stretched.

I thouht Matty J's post hit it on the head. Brennan's messages are still getting out there. Think about how the smoke is the problem? If its hot and part of the fuel load- get it out as high and fast as possible. If its just obscuring visibility and forcing the use of SCBA, opening windows and readily handy openings is the order of the day.

I suppose one might argue that if your searching, anything that speeds the job(breakiing vs. opening windows) is acceptable, but we need to use our helmet racks a little now and then.

[MattyJ]

"". I would argue though, that cutting the roof simply because fire is in the basement or 1st floor of a Balloon frame (not yet extended to the attic) could actually cause the fire to be drawn into the attic.""


I would agree with you that you shouldnt cut a roof just because a fire is in a room or basement in a balloon frame. I didnt say that, I said if it is in the walls you need to do that. Cutting the roof in that case will in fact draw it up and out of the house, but that is the goal and is a good thing. Fire running the walls in a balloon frame can run in all directions so IF the fire is in the walls giving it a good place to go up and out of the house is a good thing.


Here is a quote from Tom Brennan:
"Platform construction does not need roof cutting immediatley. Firefighters can make better use of those ladders to ascend to the second floor for interior search from alternate entry points. In balloon construction, opening the roof as soon as possible is vital to the firefight, orderly search and removal operations, and to stop the surprise spread of fire anywhere in the building that causes so much of our firefighter entrapement in structures of this construction." quote from Roof fire in balloon dwelling, "Photo lessons with Tom Brennan" Firenuggets.com

Then you and I are pretty much on the same page.

FFred....you beat me to it. Again! Look at it this way. When we go to a fire in a tenement, and the fire is on a lower floor, do we cut to vent the cockloft? No....why not...smoke usually ends up in there right? We check for signs of fire entering the cockloft....if no fire, we dont cut it, we vent the top floors by opening windows. When we cut at top floor fires, it is to prevent the fire from mushrooming throughout the cockloft, not to clear smoke. Same principle apply's to PD's.

[Dave1983]

Ill probably take some heat for this (pardon the pun) but in my neck of the woods, fire in an attic is indicator #1 that nobody goes on the roof. We either cut from an aerial or, common tactic, is to take out the gables.

Why? Well, if the fire is in the attic, you probably have impingment directly to the trusses, yes? Soooo, its a good idea to put a crew on said roof? With the large amount of lite-weight truss construction we have down here, not a good idea...