1. #76
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    When we go to the roof for ventilation the tool selection is up to the outside truck guys and the officer..we usually take a roof ladder, chain saw, rubbish hook or pike poles. Every truckman carries an axe. The decision to vent is usually based on the observations from the roof crew.

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    hr1corl8304,

    Bringing up Chiefs Dunn and Brennan on the subject of vertical ventilation in PD's isn't really a good way of supporting your argument as neither of these men subscribe to your concept of vertical ventilation in peaked roof dwellings.

    Those quotes you have taken from Tom Brennan are in reference to flat roof structures and out of the context in which he was speaking. Neither I, MattyJ nor any other FDNY member would disagree that vertical ventilation in structures with flat roofs is absolutely critical. Vertical Ventilation for Peaked roof dwellings is a secondary consideration at best around here and anyone who knows anything about FDNY operations in PDs knows we don't typcially cut Peaked roofs and only from TL buckets.

    Here are some more quotes from the late Capt. Tom Brennan and one is a continuation of the same column that you took your quotes from, only you left off the part that didn't support your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Brennan
    -"Vertical Ventilation — for flat rooftop floor fires, you can drop a vent team off with a hardware store of tools. For peak roofs, it provides a stable work platform to cut a hole in a flimsy roof covering that probably would never get cut."

    -"Peak-roof, private dwellings are another matter. I usually advocate spending all the quality initial-arrival operation time locating the fire and removing the interior occupants. Roof venting of these buildings does not usually improve conditions in time to make a difference with the aggressive interior attack and the search-and-removal efforts."

    -"Forget today’s peak-roof venting and get the undermanned fire crews inside to isolate the fire and search for and remove the civilian life load. Eighty percent of the civilians that die in fire each year die in these buildings."

    -"Vent the peak roof if necessary with the second arriving hordes — whatever they are: second alarm, mutual aid, call-backs, etc."

    -"Second, there are refinements to those, and one of the rules is that vertical ventilation is conducted first. EXCEPT in three instances:

    a.Fires in peak roof, platform-construction, private dwellings.

    b. True high-rise structures — usually over 75 to 100 feet.

    C.Operations in structures wherein there is an odor of leaking product — gas or liquid."

    -"Now with all that said, there are three times where vertical ventilation is too dangerous to perform, ineffective and wasteful of time, and more important than vertical. (Just so you have the whole picture.)

    Peak-roof dwellings that are NOT of balloon construction — delay ventilation of the roof until later, get the people out.

    High-rise structures especially apartment dwellings — horizontal ventilation, not vertical, is the great asset to the firefight.

    Buildings and structures wherein there is a release of heavier than air combustible gas.

    But these three things are enough for another lecture."
    And as for Vincent Dunn on his own website under his Strategy and Tactics Challenge the answer to the primary ventilation consideration for the Private Dwelling is: "4.Primary verntilation windows off porch" Refering to horizontal ventilation. And in his 50 ways FFs live column: the only time he mentions peaked roof work is in reference to when fire is directly underneath the roof itself buring the beams and rafters...etc.

    So what should we take from this?...that those two men advocated that unless fire is in the attic itself, vertical ventilation in PDs is a secondary consideration.

    FTM-PTB

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    Very nicely explained FFFRED. As I've noted before, vertical ventilation in PD's is probably the most overused tactic we see. At least in the Northeast. It seems FF 1+2 programs spend so much time on vertical venting that it is used whenever a line is stretched.

    I thouht Matty J's post hit it on the head. Brennan's messages are still getting out there. Think about how the smoke is the problem? If its hot and part of the fuel load- get it out as high and fast as possible. If its just obscuring visibility and forcing the use of SCBA, opening windows and readily handy openings is the order of the day.

    I suppose one might argue that if your searching, anything that speeds the job(breakiing vs. opening windows) is acceptable, but we need to use our helmet racks a little now and then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squad1LT View Post
    "". I would argue though, that cutting the roof simply because fire is in the basement or 1st floor of a Balloon frame (not yet extended to the attic) could actually cause the fire to be drawn into the attic.""


    I would agree with you that you shouldnt cut a roof just because a fire is in a room or basement in a balloon frame. I didnt say that, I said if it is in the walls you need to do that. Cutting the roof in that case will in fact draw it up and out of the house, but that is the goal and is a good thing. Fire running the walls in a balloon frame can run in all directions so IF the fire is in the walls giving it a good place to go up and out of the house is a good thing.


    Here is a quote from Tom Brennan:
    "Platform construction does not need roof cutting immediatley. Firefighters can make better use of those ladders to ascend to the second floor for interior search from alternate entry points. In balloon construction, opening the roof as soon as possible is vital to the firefight, orderly search and removal operations, and to stop the surprise spread of fire anywhere in the building that causes so much of our firefighter entrapement in structures of this construction." quote from Roof fire in balloon dwelling, "Photo lessons with Tom Brennan" Firenuggets.com


    Then you and I are pretty much on the same page.

    FFred....you beat me to it. Again! Look at it this way. When we go to a fire in a tenement, and the fire is on a lower floor, do we cut to vent the cockloft? No....why not...smoke usually ends up in there right? We check for signs of fire entering the cockloft....if no fire, we dont cut it, we vent the top floors by opening windows. When we cut at top floor fires, it is to prevent the fire from mushrooming throughout the cockloft, not to clear smoke. Same principle apply's to PD's.

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    Ill probably take some heat for this (pardon the pun) but in my neck of the woods, fire in an attic is indicator #1 that nobody goes on the roof. We either cut from an aerial or, common tactic, is to take out the gables.

    Why? Well, if the fire is in the attic, you probably have impingment directly to the trusses, yes? Soooo, its a good idea to put a crew on said roof? With the large amount of lite-weight truss construction we have down here, not a good idea...
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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    Default well done

    FFRED

    First I would start by saying well done on your post and I don’t disagree with some of the points that you bring up in postings in relation to FDNY. I was responding to a statement of Mattyj’s when he stated I would not vertically vent for the purpose of removing smoke. As I stated before this is one of the main reasons we vent. In my post in response to this statement I did not refer to that of peaked vs. flat or residential vs. commercial. I would have to agree with you based on your descriptions, postings and what little I know about NY. It would seem to me from an outsider that based on many of your PD’s the attic space is retrofitted and decked to make a livable space which would not be conducive for you guys to utilize this as a first choice in your operations. In my area this is not an issue that is a concern for us. Most of our construction is open attic space with drywall . Vertical operations is a major benefit for us. Now on to the quotes from Tom Brennan. I am unsure of the article your quotes came from but they do not appear to be from the same article I am quoting from. I obtained these from a question in relation to vertical operations on light weight structures primarily garden apartments and town houses. Once again I am unsure of NY but in my area these are mostly pitched roof structures for the most part. Flat roof in relation to commercial. Now to take it bit by bit……
    -"Peak-roof, private dwellings are another matter. I usually advocate spending all the quality initial-arrival operation time locating the fire and removing the interior occupants. Roof venting of these buildings does not usually improve conditions in time to make a difference with the aggressive interior attack and the search-and-removal efforts. "Tom Brennan
    I would agree with this finding and extinguishing the fire is the best thing we can do. I would not even consider neglecting searches in lieu of Vertical Venting especially if we have confirmed victims.. Victims are our priority and nothing should take precedence over their rescue.

    -"Forget today’s peak-roof venting and get the undermanned fire crews inside to isolate the fire and search for and remove the civilian life load. Eighty percent of the civilians that die in fire each year die in these buildings

    Key statement here to me is the word undermanned….. We can and always will wish for more manning to make our jobs more efficient and handle all the tasks that need to be accomplished simultaneously. Would I consider FDNY, Chicago, LA city, Phoenix ,Charlotte, ect. Undermanned to the point that we can not effectively and simultaneously utilize vertical operations in conjunction with effective searches? Maybe in many of the structures I have seen in NY but for the most part elsewhere I mentioned it can and is done commonly. My departments initial assignment to a residential structure is 3 2 with a rescue, Chief and a bus as you guys would call it. I agree whole heartily with you that we should delay vertical ops in lieu of victim rescue as was done in the video I posted in Tacoma Wash. 2 victims removed and vertical vent accomplished although later in the game after victim removal and searches…. To say that just because it is a pitched roof and residential it is a waste of man power might be the case in NY but many other parts of the country it is not.
    I guess the best way to sum it up is to say like has been said many times before, Everyone’s area, construction and tactics are different. Some might work in areas and not in others, do what is best for your area. Which is how most of the time it is done. We should not critique others just because they operate differently which is done so many times.

    FFRED” Vertical Ventilation for Peaked roof dwellings is a secondary consideration at best around here and anyone who knows anything about FDNY operations in PDs knows we don't typcially cut Peaked roofs and only from TL buckets.”

    ”Best around here”
    As I stated in your area from what I know ( which is very little)it sounds as if it should be a secondary consideration. Do to some of the higher pitches you have due to snow loading, construction characteristics and living arrangements, cutting from a bucket seems to be a good choice. In my area most of the roofs are 6 in 12 or less which doesn’t create as much of a concern due to the lower pitches so working from a roof ladder is a safe alternative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hr1corl8304 View Post
    mattyj

    A good way when punching dry wall is to tap along the trusses or rafters lightly with the d handle to loosen the fasteners prior to making your aggressive punch through. My agency has had better luck with larger surface area tools the trash rake was a good example used
    Great point...not to change the subject, but when pulling drywall from walls I like to use the punch technique where you outline the section you want to pull with little cuts spaced every several inches. Then start the pull by lightly pulling a corner to get it to start free of the fastners before making the "yank". You normally end up with the whole piece instead of a bunch of little ones.

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    Once again, my only response to those that are so gung ho about it is: Its a waste of time. If the fire has advanced to the point of filling the attic with smoke and heat to the point that you are worried about a flash over or a back draft, you shouldnt be in there, or have someone on a roof whose age and condition is unknown. Seriously, do you really think that its making that big of an impact? Ive done it numerous times and the only thing I got out of it was ringing ears and a whoa, good thing i didnt slide off this MOFO in the process. 99% of the people in the Metro NYC area who dont use the attic for living space use it for storage. Attics here are plywood floors and or tongue and groove depending on the age. If you are strong enough to punch a hole through a 1/2" sheet of plywood I have a bridge i want to sell you. I really should just copy and paste my answers from prior posts. Why risk OUR lives for that? Life yes, but not to get a hole in a roof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    If the fire has advanced to the point of filling the attic with smoke and heat to the point that you are worried about a flash over or a back draft, you shouldnt be in there, or have someone on a roof whose age and condition is unknown. Why risk OUR lives for that? Life yes, but not to get a hole in a roof.

    Like I said,my old department's policy is that we don't go on a roof if the fire's been going longer than 6 minutes,and all we know is how long it took us to get there.

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    Doug, that is an excellent policy! If you need to rebuild a house, you can go to home depot, when you need to rebuild a body you go to the morgue (cadaver skin).

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    Question

    everyone has some good ideas and ways to vent a roof.
    My question to everyone is why not a ventilation saw, specifically designed for roof venting?
    Does anyone use them? and what kind if you do?

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    why not a ventilation saw, specifically designed for roof venting
    Why have a "specialized" tool?

    Chainsaw's work fine on lots of residentials and some commercials. "K" saws work fine on lots of buildings as well. It's not really feasible to imagine 1 "blade/chain" that would cut everything well.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Why have a "specialized" tool?

    Chainsaw's work fine on lots of residentials and some commercials. "K" saws work fine on lots of buildings as well. It's not really feasible to imagine 1 "blade/chain" that would cut everything well.
    I prefer the flat end of a flat axe. Next time you train with it give it a try. It works good on peaked wood roofs. It doesn't matter if it is plywood or lathe type roof.
    J
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

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    grrr quad post
    Last edited by mcfd45; 01-11-2007 at 10:37 AM.
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

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    grrr quad post
    Last edited by mcfd45; 01-11-2007 at 10:37 AM.
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

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    grrr quad post
    Last edited by mcfd45; 01-11-2007 at 10:36 AM.
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

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