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  1. #81
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    Default well done

    FFRED

    First I would start by saying well done on your post and I don’t disagree with some of the points that you bring up in postings in relation to FDNY. I was responding to a statement of Mattyj’s when he stated I would not vertically vent for the purpose of removing smoke. As I stated before this is one of the main reasons we vent. In my post in response to this statement I did not refer to that of peaked vs. flat or residential vs. commercial. I would have to agree with you based on your descriptions, postings and what little I know about NY. It would seem to me from an outsider that based on many of your PD’s the attic space is retrofitted and decked to make a livable space which would not be conducive for you guys to utilize this as a first choice in your operations. In my area this is not an issue that is a concern for us. Most of our construction is open attic space with drywall . Vertical operations is a major benefit for us. Now on to the quotes from Tom Brennan. I am unsure of the article your quotes came from but they do not appear to be from the same article I am quoting from. I obtained these from a question in relation to vertical operations on light weight structures primarily garden apartments and town houses. Once again I am unsure of NY but in my area these are mostly pitched roof structures for the most part. Flat roof in relation to commercial. Now to take it bit by bit……
    -"Peak-roof, private dwellings are another matter. I usually advocate spending all the quality initial-arrival operation time locating the fire and removing the interior occupants. Roof venting of these buildings does not usually improve conditions in time to make a difference with the aggressive interior attack and the search-and-removal efforts. "Tom Brennan
    I would agree with this finding and extinguishing the fire is the best thing we can do. I would not even consider neglecting searches in lieu of Vertical Venting especially if we have confirmed victims.. Victims are our priority and nothing should take precedence over their rescue.

    -"Forget today’s peak-roof venting and get the undermanned fire crews inside to isolate the fire and search for and remove the civilian life load. Eighty percent of the civilians that die in fire each year die in these buildings

    Key statement here to me is the word undermanned….. We can and always will wish for more manning to make our jobs more efficient and handle all the tasks that need to be accomplished simultaneously. Would I consider FDNY, Chicago, LA city, Phoenix ,Charlotte, ect. Undermanned to the point that we can not effectively and simultaneously utilize vertical operations in conjunction with effective searches? Maybe in many of the structures I have seen in NY but for the most part elsewhere I mentioned it can and is done commonly. My departments initial assignment to a residential structure is 3 2 with a rescue, Chief and a bus as you guys would call it. I agree whole heartily with you that we should delay vertical ops in lieu of victim rescue as was done in the video I posted in Tacoma Wash. 2 victims removed and vertical vent accomplished although later in the game after victim removal and searches…. To say that just because it is a pitched roof and residential it is a waste of man power might be the case in NY but many other parts of the country it is not.
    I guess the best way to sum it up is to say like has been said many times before, Everyone’s area, construction and tactics are different. Some might work in areas and not in others, do what is best for your area. Which is how most of the time it is done. We should not critique others just because they operate differently which is done so many times.

    FFRED” Vertical Ventilation for Peaked roof dwellings is a secondary consideration at best around here and anyone who knows anything about FDNY operations in PDs knows we don't typcially cut Peaked roofs and only from TL buckets.”

    ”Best around here”
    As I stated in your area from what I know ( which is very little)it sounds as if it should be a secondary consideration. Do to some of the higher pitches you have due to snow loading, construction characteristics and living arrangements, cutting from a bucket seems to be a good choice. In my area most of the roofs are 6 in 12 or less which doesn’t create as much of a concern due to the lower pitches so working from a roof ladder is a safe alternative.


  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hr1corl8304 View Post
    mattyj

    A good way when punching dry wall is to tap along the trusses or rafters lightly with the d handle to loosen the fasteners prior to making your aggressive punch through. My agency has had better luck with larger surface area tools the trash rake was a good example used
    Great point...not to change the subject, but when pulling drywall from walls I like to use the punch technique where you outline the section you want to pull with little cuts spaced every several inches. Then start the pull by lightly pulling a corner to get it to start free of the fastners before making the "yank". You normally end up with the whole piece instead of a bunch of little ones.

  3. #83
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    Once again, my only response to those that are so gung ho about it is: Its a waste of time. If the fire has advanced to the point of filling the attic with smoke and heat to the point that you are worried about a flash over or a back draft, you shouldnt be in there, or have someone on a roof whose age and condition is unknown. Seriously, do you really think that its making that big of an impact? Ive done it numerous times and the only thing I got out of it was ringing ears and a whoa, good thing i didnt slide off this MOFO in the process. 99% of the people in the Metro NYC area who dont use the attic for living space use it for storage. Attics here are plywood floors and or tongue and groove depending on the age. If you are strong enough to punch a hole through a 1/2" sheet of plywood I have a bridge i want to sell you. I really should just copy and paste my answers from prior posts. Why risk OUR lives for that? Life yes, but not to get a hole in a roof.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    If the fire has advanced to the point of filling the attic with smoke and heat to the point that you are worried about a flash over or a back draft, you shouldnt be in there, or have someone on a roof whose age and condition is unknown. Why risk OUR lives for that? Life yes, but not to get a hole in a roof.

    Like I said,my old department's policy is that we don't go on a roof if the fire's been going longer than 6 minutes,and all we know is how long it took us to get there.

  5. #85
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    Doug, that is an excellent policy! If you need to rebuild a house, you can go to home depot, when you need to rebuild a body you go to the morgue (cadaver skin).

  6. #86
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    Question

    everyone has some good ideas and ways to vent a roof.
    My question to everyone is why not a ventilation saw, specifically designed for roof venting?
    Does anyone use them? and what kind if you do?

  7. #87
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    why not a ventilation saw, specifically designed for roof venting
    Why have a "specialized" tool?

    Chainsaw's work fine on lots of residentials and some commercials. "K" saws work fine on lots of buildings as well. It's not really feasible to imagine 1 "blade/chain" that would cut everything well.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Why have a "specialized" tool?

    Chainsaw's work fine on lots of residentials and some commercials. "K" saws work fine on lots of buildings as well. It's not really feasible to imagine 1 "blade/chain" that would cut everything well.
    I prefer the flat end of a flat axe. Next time you train with it give it a try. It works good on peaked wood roofs. It doesn't matter if it is plywood or lathe type roof.
    J
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

  9. #89
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    grrr quad post
    Last edited by mcfd45; 01-11-2007 at 09:37 AM.
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

  10. #90
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    grrr quad post
    Last edited by mcfd45; 01-11-2007 at 09:37 AM.
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

  11. #91
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    grrr quad post
    Last edited by mcfd45; 01-11-2007 at 09:36 AM.
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

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