Policy on further education

[doublej986]

Here is one for everyone to mull over....

Has anyone ever had a problem with a new member go through fire training and then want to take the EMT class immediately after, or vice versa? The reason I ask, my dept. has had some problems in the past with new members doing just that and then shagging out, leaving us high and dry. We are trying to establish a new policy which requires a member to maintain any level of training for a minimum of 1 year before he/she can seek additional training such as FF then EMT. Does anyone have anything to share?

[bfranse]

We have had people take a class and skate too, cost of doing business to properly train and all volunteer fire district. Our current policy is we pay for half of the cost of the training for both EMT and FF I & II. And reimburse the other half 6 months after they received their EMT license or FF cert. We seldom allow a member to take both in one year.

[backsteprescue123]

As a requirement to pass probationary period, you must get your EMT-B and 36 hour (Ohio Vol FF / FF I) cert within a year (which is the usual probationary period). I haven't heard anything about problems like this around here, but that's not saying that it doesn't happen. All schooling is reimbursed by the dept. as well. Most dept's around here are willing to pay for most any training you want to take.

http://www.rossfordfire.com/employment.html

IIRC, the last 4-5 guys hired on the dept. had all of their certs before hiring....well one guy had to tkae his NREMT test after hiring, but already had the class.

[FireDemon618]

Our Department mandates that you have to have both Standards and EMT to even apply for a reservist.

[orangebuster]

I see that you are from Ohio, so the training part of the classes can be reimbursed through grant monies each year. Now, as for turn out gear and such, you may just want to keep some used gear around until you find out if these people are going to work out.

Also, as stated you can install specific criteria in your by-laws and SOP/G's for these people prior to them taking these classes. Either way, you should get it done o.k.


STILL DOING IT FOR THE RIGHT REASONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fitguy51]

I guess I have taken my training for granted. The state runs the training program here in NYS. I have never had to pay for the basic stuff. It would be impossible to get EMT and FF1 here in a year, atleast not and still have a life of some kind. EMT is 2 nights a week and some saturdays for something like 4 months. Then the same thing for 3 months to get FF1. I'm glad that my FD does not require us to be bandaid boys too.

[tbonetrexler]

We had this problem, mostly with EMTs. So we introduced a contract.

At the start of the class they were required to sign the contract that stated that if they passed the class, they are required to make 10% of the runs every month for a 2 year period. If they failed to make their 10% percent, they had to pay back 1/24th of the class (which aint much, lol, its about a $650 class total, divided by 24)

If they failed to successfully obtain their EMT card, they have to reimburse us the money.

[WMFF12]

Ours sounds alot like yours T-Bone.... I think ours is a 2 year contract, stating that you need to be in "good standing" and some other stuff... or the student/new member has to reimburse the Dept. for costs incurred. They will pay for just about any training you want to take, as long as you sign away.

I STILL can't get them to pay for my proposed trip to Cazumel to further my dive education... They told me there's plenty of water around here....

In fact we had a guy just finish his FF2 here and scoot, he was very prudent, and paid us in full with no argument...

However, there is a clause that states if you do skate early, our Treasurer,
"Guido" will recover any outstanding debts...

[randsc]

...are taking too much training? Most volunteer departments would love to be in that situation. Our mantra is "training, training, training."

If you lose a few shortly after they train up, like the post above said, that's the cost of doing business.

If you are losing a lot shortly after they train up, you have a problem with your recruitment/hiring process.

I would never want to put in place a system that would have the effect of discouraging people from attending training.

[XNA1590]

At my last department if they paid for you to take a class like FFI/II or EMT you had to sign a contract with them that you would remain an active member for at least 1 year. Hope this is helpful.

[Bones42]

FF1 training - free. EMT-B training - free.

By the time someone has put the effort/time into completing both of those, we know whether they will be staying with us for a while or not.

[BrianB35]

Our Chief like us to get FF1&2, Hazmat and MFR as soon as we can. I've been here just over a year and have all done except my MFR which I plan on starting soon. They pay for everything and yes I could bail, but why? I'm a vollie with a full time job.

I think some places should institute what we have at my employeer. You want your BS or MBA or MS. Fine, we'll pay, but you have to work for a minimum of two years after you get your Degree otherwise you have to pay back whatever X/24 is left.

[WMFF12]

...are taking too much training? Most volunteer departments would love to be in that situation. Our mantra is "training, training, training."

If you lose a few shortly after they train up, like the post above said, that's the cost of doing business.

If you are losing a lot shortly after they train up, you have a problem with your recruitment/hiring process.

I would never want to put in place a system that would have the effect of discouraging people from attending training.

Umm...
Well, training is definately, and STRONGLY encouraged here, and I can't remember ever having a problem with staffing, or funding.

The angle that we come from (and the problem I suspect that other Vollie FD's have), is not to steer people away from training, but to mitigate the "stepping stone" effect.

Not every one's wallet is deep enough to absorb the cost of guys who want to pull up thier stakes once they get thier card. It's an investment to both sides, one side gives up thier time, to learn, the other pays, and would graciously like to see a return on that investment. Whether it be 1 or 2 years, or a long time.

Rand... it's nice to see a fellow Deptartment share the same mantra.

[randsc]

Umm...
Well, training is definately, and STRONGLY encouraged here, and I can't remember ever having a problem with staffing, or funding.

The angle that we come from (and the problem I suspect that other Vollie FD's have), is not to steer people away from training, but to mitigate the "stepping stone" effect.

Not every one's wallet is deep enough to absorb the cost of guys who want to pull up thier stakes once they get thier card. It's an investment to both sides, one side gives up thier time, to learn, the other pays, and would graciously like to see a return on that investment. Whether it be 1 or 2 years, or a long time.

Rand... it's nice to see a fellow Deptartment share the same mantra.

So I am back to :

"If you are losing a lot shortly after they train up, you have a problem with your recruitment/hiring process."

Anything that discourages members from training is, IMHO, a bad idea, and will cost you more in the long run.

[doublej986]

Well, to answer some questions, we too have a contract a member must sign stating the same as everyone else, "play or pay". The problem is, we had a couple that went through 36 hour class and then EMT-B. They moved out of our acceptable boundaries for being a member and were told they would have to reimburse the dept. They basically told us they were not going to pay for s**t! We never saw them when they were on the dept. To sue someone in small claims is more than the cost of the class, so why bother? It's not that we are hurting for money. We are just tired of people joining to get training with the sole intention of getting a job afterwards and bailing on us. It has happened alot. WE recently had a member ask for the dept. to pay for his medic class. Keep in mind, he is employed by a private ambulance service. The membership offered to give him $500 opposed to $3700 roughly. He refused it and got angry with us. I told him if he had participated more and shown up on runs, we would have given more and we didn't have to give the $500.

He recently asked my Asst. Chief of Squads if the dept. would pay for some of his class. He was denied and we haven't seen him since.

I would gladly allow any member to advance in training, provided they put in their time and show up once in a while. We have a new guy who just finished his 240 class that we paid for. He now wants to take EMT-B class and an officer class. He never shows up for anything other than something huge and even then he is a pain in the butt. He was denied the officer class and I am probably going to deny him the EMT-B class until he has been around longer and "proved" himself. Until that time, No way.

[doublej986]

I am in the process of trying to pass R&R's through our membership to require each member who wants training other than 36 hr FF or EMT-B to submit a letter of intent to me before taking any class. I have to approve it then take it to the Finance Committee for further approval and then they must serve with the dept for one year before they can advance to the next level of training, ie. EMT-B, EMT-I, EMT-P. Same for firefighting, 36 hr, 120 hr, 240 hr class.

[randsc]

I am in the process of trying to pass R&R's through our membership to require each member who wants training other than 36 hr FF or EMT-B to submit a letter of intent to me before taking any class. I have to approve it then take it to the Finance Committee for further approval and then they must serve with the dept for one year before they can advance to the next level of training, ie. EMT-B, EMT-I, EMT-P. Same for firefighting, 36 hr, 120 hr, 240 hr class.

...what is a 36 hr? I am guessing that the 120 hr and 240 hr roughly correspond to what here we call FF1 and FF2, though our FF1 is 196 hours and our FF2 is 184 hrs. But what do you cover in 36 hr? Is it like an orientation type of thing?

Anyway, while it sucks that you have had the problems you have had, it still sounds to me like part of the problem is with your recruitment process, and you are letting on too many people who are joining for the wrong reasons.

One thing you might consider is having people do the EMT and medic stuff through local colleges rather than the academy. Because they would then be in a standard semester, getting an EMT-B will take a year, so you will have them as a FR for nearly that long. And someone going for a medic, you would have as an EMT-I for at least 3-4 semesters before they finished their coursework.

I'd rather pay for a guy I immediately lose than put in place a policy that might cause 3 guys not to go to training.

[bfranse]

Anyway, while it sucks that you have had the problems you have had, it still sounds to me like part of the problem is with your recruitment process, and you are letting on too many people who are joining for the wrong reasons.

There are a dozen motivations for some one to volunteer. With volunteerism in the fire service falling, some times you have to take the good motivations with the bad and let strong officers push them in the right direction.

One thing you might consider is having people do the EMT and medic stuff through local colleges rather than the academy. Because they would then be in a standard semester, getting an EMT-B will take a year, so you will have them as a FR for nearly that long. And someone going for a medic, you would have as an EMT-I for at least 3-4 semesters before they finished their coursework.

Here most of the time, if you don't belong to a FF/EMS organization, the only place you can get FFI, FF2, EMT, EMT-P is at the Community Colleges and it isn't cheap. We can get the training cheaper using fire agencies.

I'd rather pay for a guy I immediately lose than put in place a policy that might cause 3 guys not to go to training.

With a limited training budget there isn't anything wrong with putting a few stipulations for training to be paid for. If those same 3 guys don't want to go to training because they have to meet a basic criteria, I don't want to pay their way, it makes me think their bad motivations are out weighing the good.

[LouisianaMedic]

In the departments I belong to in Pa and LA - all fire fighting training is covered by the departments if not free from the state... First responder class (40 hours) paid by some departments. EMT - B must be paid by the individual seeking that and maybe reimbursed by the department I belong to in Louisiana but only after certain number of calls have been run and certain amount of time with the department and if they past the test..

Contracts in a volunteer department is almost worthless unless you plan to follow through with them in court procedings and the contract should also state - if you break the contract you need to pay for the training and will also have to pay for court and attorney's fee for breaking the contract to recover the cost....

[doublej986]

In the departments I belong to in Pa and LA - all fire fighting training is covered by the departments if not free from the state... First responder class (40 hours) paid by some departments. EMT - B must be paid by the individual seeking that and maybe reimbursed by the department I belong to in Louisiana but only after certain number of calls have been run and certain amount of time with the department and if they past the test..

Contracts in a volunteer department is almost worthless unless you plan to follow through with them in court procedings and the contract should also state - if you break the contract you need to pay for the training and will also have to pay for court and attorney's fee for breaking the contract to recover the cost....

Medic, I like the idea of making them pay for the court costs too. I might have to write up an R&R on that.