1. #1
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    Post Cost of 2007 Engines

    I have read several articles that say that the cost of the 07 engines will be about 8K more then the 06's. I know of a department that just signed with a manufacturer for and 07 rig with and 06 engine. They signed early before they had township approval to buy due to the fact they where told by the manufacturer that it would save them 15K if they went with and 06 engine.

    My question is what is number is closer to the the correct figure?

    8K or 15K?

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    If they're in the 300hp range $8,000 is close.

    If they're in the 500hp range $13,000 to $15,000 is more accurate.

    There are a lot of variables to consider.

    They may have also avoided a manufacturers increase by signing early.

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    I agree with FF4020

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    It absolutely depends on the size and make of the engine. There have been a few departments around my area that were also promised big savings if "they signed on the dotted line NOW" to get a 2006 engine. I am a bit leary of buying any product in its first year of production. If I had a choice, I would wait for a 2008 model, but some departments cant do that. There will be some bugs, I am sure, so that is why having a good service center is important.
    I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief1FF View Post
    I have read several articles that say that the cost of the 07 engines will be about 8K more then the 06's. I know of a department that just signed with a manufacturer for and 07 rig with and 06 engine. They signed early before they had township approval to buy due to the fact they where told by the manufacturer that it would save them 15K if they went with and 06 engine.

    My question is what is number is closer to the the correct figure?

    8K or 15K?
    Sutphen & kme went up $ 12K for a 2007 apparatus, do to new engines and chassis design changes !
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 01-09-2007 at 06:27 PM.

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    We just purchased an 2007 HME with an 06 compliance motor. Some chassis manufacturers purchased extra 06 epa compliant motors, as long as they have them on hand they can sell them. The EPA regs are changing again in 2010 so who knows what that will bring.

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    Not just fire apparatus mfg. Every truck aftermarket mfg bought all they could afford on spec. See dump truck etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1 View Post
    I am a bit leary of buying any product in its first year of production.
    Engines built after January 1, 2007 will basically be the same as the 2006 models. The difference is in the EMISSIONS portion of the engine.

    GM's engines, and I'm sure others will change the way they remove exhaust gas from the engine. GM will use an advanced Exhaust Gas Recirculation system (EGR). CAT calls their's ACERT.

    All engines must have a system to collect the diesel exhaust particulates. The collector will have to "burn off" that matter when it's full. If the truck is running on the highway at the time, no problem, it will do it automatically. However fire trucks, like landscapers or delivery trucks, will have to either go out and do a burn run, about 40 minutes, or idle until the light on the dash goes out.

    Idling will not cause more pollution but it does cause a heat problem as the regeneration process creates about 1000 degrees of heat. It's recommended that this be done outside and not attached to any exhaust removal system due to the heat generated.

    I'm sure that all manufacturers have something on their websites explaining how they will comply with the new federal standards. Here's the GMICT site:
    http://www.isuzucv.com/images/engine...ionsBro_GM.pdf

    WCEN23 is correct that engines purchased prior to the new year can be used. It's the date of the engine, not the chassis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WCENG23 View Post
    We just purchased an 2007 HME with an 06 compliance motor. Some chassis manufacturers purchased extra 06 epa compliant motors, as long as they have them on hand they can sell them. The EPA regs are changing again in 2010 so who knows what that will bring.
    I was at the HME factory Monday and Tuesday. They have quite a few ISC and/or ISL Cummins stored around the factory. Not sure exactly if C's or L's but definitely not M's or other manufacturers engines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCENG23 View Post
    We just purchased an 2007 HME with an 06 compliance motor. Some chassis manufacturers purchased extra 06 epa compliant motors, as long as they have them on hand they can sell them. The EPA regs are changing again in 2010 so who knows what that will bring.



    Well, I know what that will bring. Unless the industry can find a way to meet the new 2010 standards for emissions, the current plan ( last I talked to the engine manufactures was in october ) one will have to burn urea with diesel fuel. Not to mention the regeneration systems that will be in place before then.

    If you can, talk directly to the engine manufacturer ( Mack, Cat, Cummins, Detroit, Mercedes etc.) And keeps tabs on what is coming so you can plan ahead. If a different solution to the standards isn't found, we are looking at turning over an entire 50 unit commercial fleet before 2010. Including the new tractors we just got in. We normally get 5 - 7 years from a tractor, and this would mean we wouldn't have to buy another tractor until 2015 at the earliest, hoping a less scary solution to the standard would be found by then.

    This isn't a joke. The technology required for the new emission requirements is going to keep a lot of people up at night worrying. Check w/ your engine manufacture. They'll tell you what's up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefDog View Post
    I was at the HME factory Monday and Tuesday. They have quite a few ISC and/or ISL Cummins stored around the factory. Not sure exactly if C's or L's but definitely not M's or other manufacturers engines.
    ChiefDog,
    You didnt happen to see a chassis for Potsdam NY while you were there. We are getting a 1871P-2xl, 400HP, raised roof. Was ordered in Aug should be almost done. What did you think of factory ? This will be our first HME and will replace a 1983 Spartan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpierce View Post
    ChiefDog,
    You didnt happen to see a chassis for Potsdam NY while you were there. We are getting a 1871P-2xl, 400HP, raised roof. Was ordered in Aug should be almost done. What did you think of factory ? This will be our first HME and will replace a 1983 Spartan.
    I saw a quite a few rigs in process. Are you getting the entire truck from HME or just the Chassis? They had a few chassis outside done, if yours was one of them I did not get too much time outside.

    They have all of them marked as chassis or full body. Ours was full body. It was pretty neat seeing the frame rails cut, drilled and then cross members, springs etc put on.

    They run a pretty tight operation. The schedule is pretty accurate on when the rig will be done. Check with the dealer and they can check on the computer. (Ours was able to see what stage it was at for us.)

    The chassis part of the factory is older than the body side. They have a lot of parts on hand. They could probably work for a month or more with stock on hand for chassis components.

    The body and cab side is very neat and clean. They wire the cabs all on a jig that is lower so they are working so the dash is at a nice working height not up like it would be if on the frame. Once done they put it on the frame.

    Similar setup for the pumps. on a jig, everything is at the level for the workers to not have to get up and down like on a complete rig. Once to a point then they place on the chassis and continue on.

    The entire rig seems to be engineered to what has worked and as standardized as possible. Not limiting your options but known configurations that work. 3-4 discharge foam manifolds the same way on our truck and others I saw in production.

    I think they make the parts all to an engineering spec / print. So that if you have that you will be able to get one made at a later date. Obviously later in life they may not have it in stock, but with the print and the right source making it they can make it.

    My understanding is that the owner, has multiple businesses. They compliment each other. Big Truck parts supplier supplying HME Chassis. Sheetmetal shop making the panels for HME bodies and other things so they aren't tied to just making fire trucks. The HME plant assembles parts from the various suppliers (internal and external) to make the final product.

    I can't wait for the truck to get shipped to the dealer and then to us so we can play with it.

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    Default Couldn't have said it better myself

    ChiefDog,

    Couldn't have given a better tour of the HME plant myself and I've been there a half dozen times. We can't wait until your truck comes in too. I just delivered Bridgewater NH truck a week ago and did some training this past Sat. The guys love it so far. I'm sure your crew will be happy with yours when it gets there. I just hope Glenn lets me come along for the delivery of yours.

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    Is this a good idea? Hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefDog View Post
    I saw a quite a few rigs in process. Are you getting the entire truck from HME or just the Chassis? They had a few chassis outside done, if yours was one of them I did not get too much time outside.
    Were getting chassis only. Chassis will be going to Rosenbauer America General Division in Wyoming, MN. for body. We did look at HME Ahrens-Fox and liked the looks of their trucks. Ended up going with Rosenbauer because we bid a Rear-mount pumper.

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    Angry 2007 Costs Gone Up !

    I was checking out a fire apparatus state contract sheet from Pa, Costars-13 and the prices have gone up on most builders trucks between $ 13,000 for a pumper to $ 35,000 on some aerial ladders from 2006-2007 !

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    We're in the same boat, about to order a new Med duty rescue, if we can't get it ordered soon the price will go up about 12%! Based simply on the engine alone! So far our dealer has been able to hold on to a chassis for us, hope we get to order it soon!
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII View Post
    I was checking out a fire apparatus state contract sheet from Pa, Costars-13 and the prices have gone up on most builders trucks between $ 13,000 for a pumper to $ 35,000 on some aerial ladders from 2006-2007 !
    What gets you is that the new motors need the cabs and who knows what else redesigned to have the new motors fit. Then the solutions to the emissions can be extremely hot so the area impacted by that has to be re-designed. The old saying 10 lbs of S#$^ in a 5 lbs bag... you need to redesign the bag...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefDog View Post
    What gets you is that the new motors need the cabs and who knows what else redesigned to have the new motors fit. Then the solutions to the emissions can be extremely hot so the area impacted by that has to be re-designed. The old saying 10 lbs of S#$^ in a 5 lbs bag... you need to redesign the bag...
    There is nothing new externally on the engines. Some modifications had to made internally but the emissions regeneration is all under the truck in the exhaust system. See the GM/Isuzu site I listed earlier.

    STOP SPREADING RUMORS!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonfyre View Post
    There is nothing new externally on the engines. Some modifications had to made internally but the emissions regeneration is all under the truck in the exhaust system. See the GM/Isuzu site I listed earlier.

    STOP SPREADING RUMORS!!!
    Well you may be an expert on Isuzu engines but you need to think about and read what I put in "MY POST". I will admit I used fit where I should have used "work".

    I don't believe your Isuzu information is 100% applicable to the horsepower/torque ranges being discussed here for fire apparatus. The light to medium duty chassis 4 or 6 cylinder GM/Isuzu is not offered at the required 45,000 GVWR, so the Isuzu with the 2000gpm Q-max Hale wasn't available. The only engine referenced in information you bring up is a C7 Cat. Most fire apparatus are at least a C9 or larger Cat or equivalent Cummins or Detroit.

    Might I ask you what is directly behind the cab on most fire trucks? A fire pump and whatever else is needed to have crosslays etc on the truck. The exhaust system is where? Behind/along side the motor underneath the cab. By your own account the regeneration will get hotter than a normal exhaust and is "part of the exhaust system." You want this added part of the exhaust system where? under the cab? Under the pumphouse? Where? You need to redesign the truck to have this on it and not have it effect something else on the truck. Most fire trucks I have seen have a fair amount of components in this general area already.


    My point is, If the 07 EPA engine was just an easy exhaust modification why did E-one redesign their Typhoon chassis for the 2007 EPA engines?

    Why did Pierce come out with two new models?

    Why did HME buy all these 2006 motors?
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    Last edited by ChiefDog; 01-26-2007 at 12:02 AM.

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    Default 2007

    cooling the new engines is the big challenge. Manufacturers have had to redesign doghouses, utilize larger radiators, re-locate components etc. Its not just a simple redesign of exhaust components - although that does come into play. There are also new dash mounted warning lights and switches for regenerating the ATD or DPT (After treatment device or Diesel particulate trap). New lubricants are being used, new ultra low sulfur fuel....

    I have heard that Unimog will not be meeting the 07 requirment due to the enormous costs associated with re-designing their chassis. Apparently they are waiting until 2010 to re-work their trucks....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefDog View Post
    Why did HME buy all these 2006 motors?
    To save money!!!!! They were smart. It's the same reason we loaded up with pre-emissions trucks. It gives us a price advantage over our competition.

    GM also offers the Caterpillar engines in their trucks and CAT did the same minor modifications to their engines where 95% of it is internal. The 5% external is not enough to drastically change the size of engine. http://www.cat.com/cda/components/fu...&x=7&id=142378

    I never said that there was no change in the exhaust system. We are going to have a problem supplying trucks to the sweeper industry because of the exhaust system.

    As for the manufacturer's changing their cabs you'll have to ask them. As with any truck or car manufacturer you have to change every so often to keep the line fresh and bring buyers back in. Maybe it was time for Pierce to do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonfyre View Post
    GM also offers the Caterpillar engines in their trucks and CAT did the same minor modifications to their engines where 95% of it is internal. The 5% external is not enough to drastically change the size of engine. http://www.cat.com/cda/components/fu...&x=7&id=142378
    The 5% change you're referring to was to meet 2004 regulations. The change to 2007 regulations dictates fairly significant engine content changes, depending on manufacturer. It's quite a bit more complicated than just adding aftertreatment to the exhaust...the engines have changed as well. In some cases, the engine manufacturers were able to squeeze everything in to existing space claims, but some chassis will only fit certain engines and/or will be redesigned to add more space for both the engine and aftertreatment systems.

    And to switch topics a bit...anyone who has an '07 engine needs to be aware of the heat produced during aftertreatment cleaning (regeneration). There is enough heat there that igniting grass or trash fires will be much more of a concern than it has been in the past with diesel engines.

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