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Thread: size up

  1. #1
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    Default size up

    Hi, my department is really getting involved in accountability and scene size up. Myself and a few other members were thinking of making a so called cheat sheet to assist us with scene size up. We have a lot of ideas of things we can put on there, but I was wondering if anyone out there has a few ideas of things we can put on there. If anyone has any ideas please email me at rfc962006@yahoo.com. Thanks for your help


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    Also post them to this thread I am sure others would find the information useful as well..........

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    MembersZone Subscriber fireslayer1237's Avatar
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    we are moving into a new command style called ITAC (Incident Managment, Tactical objectives, Accountability, and Communications). it seems to be pretty neat. It really shortened are size ups.

    We have 6 tactical positions to choose from. TRIPOD
    T- transitional, 2 or more personnel and fire can be hit from a defensive position until more show up to make 2 in 2 out.
    R- Rescue, 3 or more known victim gives you the exemption for 2 in 2 out
    I- investigating
    P- preparing, used when getting ready for interior attack and do not have 2 in 2 out
    O- Offensive, 4 on the scene
    D- Defensive, self explanitory

    We also don't don the whole construction type it's assumed you know what kind of building your going to on dispatch. so it's usually said stories and size small medium or large. what the officer see's (fire, smoke, nothing showing) where it's coming from floor 1 alpha side. then what type of command. which we use I EAT. Initiate (combative commander), Establish (which you must then name and place the command post), Assume, Terminate.

    A size up might sound like this for a residential fire.

    E10 arriving medium 2 story flame showing floor 2 alpha side we will be transitional and initiating.

    Long story short our cheat sheets show TRIPOD and a short definition on it and IEAT with a short definition.
    FOOLS
    RFB-KTF-DTRT

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    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Down and dirty size up.. in more ways than one!

    Building Construction
    Location of the fire
    Occupancy
    Water supply
    Manpower
    Exposures
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Unit Idenftifier
    Building Size (Large, Medium, Small)
    construction description (wood-frame, ordinary const., etc)
    occupancy description (residential, commercial, etc
    Conditions (Nothing Showing, Smoke Showing, or Fire Showing)
    Mode (Investigating, Fast Attack, Defensive)
    Establishment of Command.

    E1 is on scene of a large, wood-frame, residential structure. Smoke showing from the "A" Side we'll be making a fast attack. This is 3rd Street Command

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    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Construction
    Occupancy
    Apparatus + manpower
    Life hazards

    Water supply
    Auxillary appliances
    Street conditions

    Weather
    Exposures
    Area
    Location and extent of fire
    Time of day
    Height
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireslayer1237 View Post
    We have 6 tactical positions to choose from. TRIPOD
    T- transitional, 2 or more personnel and fire can be hit from a defensive position until more show up to make 2 in 2 out.
    R- Rescue, 3 or more known victim gives you the exemption for 2 in 2 out
    I- investigating
    P- preparing, used when getting ready for interior attack and do not have 2 in 2 out
    O- Offensive, 4 on the scene
    D- Defensive, self explanitory

    ....

    we use I EAT. Initiate (combative commander), Establish (which you must then name and place the command post), Assume, Terminate.

    A size up might sound like this for a residential fire.

    E10 arriving medium 2 story flame showing floor 2 alpha side we will be transitional and initiating.

    Long story short our cheat sheets show TRIPOD and a short definition on it and IEAT with a short definition.
    Wow, that is slick...your TRIPOD acronym pretty much encapsulates every basic mode of operation you'd want (I was taught 4: interior offense, defense, blitz -> offense, or blitz -> defense). The TRIPOD/I EAT thing is a little more specific, and makes for a lot less radio clutter...assuming of course that everyone knows what "transitional" is (I think the rest are pretty self-explanatory).
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireslayer1237 View Post
    R- Rescue, 3 or more known victim gives you the exemption for 2 in 2 out.
    What??

    3 or more known victims? Maybe thats your departments view on things, but even by the two in/two out policy, you do not have to have any KNOWN victims.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Down and dirty size up.. in more ways than one!

    Building Construction
    Location of the fire
    Occupancy
    Water supply
    Manpower
    Exposures
    Personally, I like Gonzo's method and will institute it immediately.

    Easy to remember and that is everything with this type of system.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-02-2007 at 11:00 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    What??

    3 or more known victims? Maybe thats your departments view on things, but even by the two in/two out policy, you do not have to have any KNOWN victims.
    I caught this one too. So if there is only one victim they don't go? Or even 2? They wait until they can muster 2 in 2 out? WOW!!

    FyredUp

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    Fyred/Memphis -- I had to read it three times.

    Read the line above it, he left out two words on the one you guys are questioning.

    I'm pretty darn certain he meant to type:

    R- Rescue, 3 or more personnel and known victim

  12. #12
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmatian190 View Post
    Fyred/Memphis -- I had to read it three times.

    Read the line above it, he left out two words on the one you guys are questioning.

    I'm pretty darn certain he meant to type:

    R- Rescue, 3 or more personnel and known victim
    Hopefully you are correct Dal.

    I still say you don't have to have known victims. You can just highly suspect and still be in compliance with the policy.

    Three am, 2 cars in the driveway, kids toys out front, no one there to greet you. That would justify not waiting for 2 in/2 out and initiating a rapid search.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  13. #13
    Forum Member Nozzleman25's Avatar
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    My size up is

    Engine __ arrived,
    Size of building (1 story, 1 1/2, 2 etc)
    Type of Construction (wood Frame, ordinary, Fire Resistive, Non-combustible, Heavy timber)
    Fire Conditions (Nothing Showing, Fire showing, etc)
    Fire location
    Engine __is in command and is 2x2 (we run 4 man crews and the officer and driver qualify as 2x2 till RIT is established)
    "A" side of the building is ______ Street side
    If I have my own water supply I will verbalize that also

    We keep our initial size up short because dispatch repeats the entire size up. After that we will start making assignments. I.E. Water supply, Back up line, RIT, Ventilation, Primary and Secondary search etc.

    That is a pretty standard format for us. Some guys get pretty long winded but most try and keep it short with the pertinent info.

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    MembersZone Subscriber fireslayer1237's Avatar
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    I'm sorry I think I wrote that poorly. What I mean is that for a company to go into rescue mode you must have a minimum of 3 on your crew. with a high likely hood of a victim. we run 2 man engines here and if I know I have a victim I am not waiting for my third person to make a search. That will definatly get me written up in my dept but I wont wait 4 or so minutes when i know someone is in there. I hope this clears up what i was trying to say.
    FOOLS
    RFB-KTF-DTRT

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireslayer1237 View Post
    R- Rescue, 3 or more known victim gives you the exemption for 2 in 2 out

    Actually, I would bet he meant something more like this:

    R - Rescue, (requires) 3 or more (unless there is a) known victim (which) gives you the exemption for 2 in 2 out.

    Just a guess.

    Edit: (just saw the above post. guess I was a little late.)

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    Forum Member Squad1LT's Avatar
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    This will rustle the safety feathers. Every first in fire that I am on I suspect that it is occupied

    I kinda like the TRIPOD. On a really good fire first in a get a tripod. Hmm, just kidding.

    BELOW is a good acronym. It is was put out by Bob Pressler is where I saw it. COAL WAS WEALTH is good. Just be familiar with those and tactics and you will do size up without thinking about it. It will just be natural.

    I wouldn't want to have a cheat sheet for every day fires that will be a crutch to you. I do have in my map book check off sheets for confined space and hazmat incidents.

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    Ok, so we've covered size-up for structure fires...and the OP didn't limit his/her question to only structure fires.

    So, let's talk some other stuff...

    My general rule of thumb is when arriving on-scene and making the very first initial report, I try to describe exactly what I see, without being too verbose about it.
    For example, on some other scene types...

    Brush Fire:
    "On-scene with a small roadside fire, light flashy fuels, low winds, no exposures and limited extension potential with a road break to the west, and a dirt road break to the south. I'll take the south end, next-in unit continue past and pick up the north side please."
    Note: general rule of thumb, and maybe some CALFIRE guys will correct me, but a lot of our Engineers are former CDF seasonals and L-T personnel, and they divide grass/brush into three basic types:
    "Light, flashy fuels"--mostly grass with possibly some scrub and tumbleweeds but sparsely placed. Almost always less than waist-high to an average adult.
    "Moderate fuels"--mostly scrub and brush that will burn and move more slowly, possibly some grass, but the majority of the fuel load will be bushes and other vegetation, taller than waist-high but not more than an average man's height.
    "Heavy fuels"--woods and timber, bigger than man-sized.

    TA:
    "On-scene, southbound Highway 257 just south of McCarter Avenue, two small passenger vehicles involved with road blockage of the southbound lane(s), no smoke showing, next-in unit stage north of my location, prepare to assist with extrication and treatment, stand by for injury report." (begin triage and report number/type casualties next)
    On TAs, always be sure to report the correct, specific location when you arrive, because as we all know, generally you get very vague directions from dispatch.... e.g. "On the Interstate between MM10 and El Dorado Road" (when MM10 and El Dorado road are 5 miles apart ) or "In the area of Easy St and Puppy Way." Really helps incoming apparatus decide where to spot.

    I'm not much on HAZMAT...anybody who runs those more commonly have some advice and tips on those sort of size-ups? I'm game to learn myself...*LOL*
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Nobody gives the direction your rig is facing in the radio report? We always report what direction the rig is facing so that the next companies know what direction to come in from or if they will be backing down or whatever. "Engine ??? on scene at (address) with a two story frame, 25 x 50, smoke showing, we are southbound." Then the truck will report on scene with their position. And that's that. Second engine and second truck don't use the radio to report, they just hit the "on scene" button in the rig.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Chicago: Second truck? Hell, we don't even get one unless it's a commercial/industrial structure and with bystander reports of smoke showing (ie--not part of 1st alarm for AFAs).
    As for the engines...I've never heard anyone here give facing direction on their initial on-scene report. Then again, the streets are usually wide enough that we could side-by-side three engines and still have room to open compartments, and the engines are spaced out enough (travel time/distance from station to call) that we don't have to worry about units getting nutted up running over each other as everyone goes on-scene at once.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Forum Member Nozzleman25's Avatar
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    I will direct my truck company's in and also my water supply engine if I don't have my own hydrant. By doing both of these basic things it should keep access open for the truck Co.'s. I have worked a double Co. for the past six years so it is easy to remember to leave room for the truck. Now some of our single Co. continue to forget that part. So telling the truck where to come in from reminds rigs not to block that access.

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