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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    First of all... before you ask the WT to lock thereads on your very first post . do yourself a favor and actually read what trotter, jeremy and SFD have posted in the past.

    Find out where they are coming from, then ask yourself if you really want to be allied with them...
    Actually, FF1157's prose style seems suspiciously similar to that of jeremy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    It's not entirely about what they were doing at that second. Is the guy running the water shuttle a fully trained and qualified firefighter? or is he only trained and qualified at running a water shuttle? I see a difference there.

    The chief, acting as IC, I am hoping is a fully trained and qualified firefighter. Just because his current position is not inside fighting the actual fire is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether he is able to. If he is trained and qualified to, he is a firefighter. If he has no training and can't be in fighting a fire, he is not.

    It's not about "are they doing the job" as much as "can they do the job".

    Kangas could not do the job. He could do some fireground tasks and that was great. But that was it.
    Just a couple of thoughts here. The IC does not have to be a chief, and may not even be a fire fighter. What about those who are simply "fire fighters" but don't go interior?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout
    Can't wear an SCBA -- not a firefighter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Because on my Federal Form IRS 1040 it says firefighter. I don't want every tax dollar that I earn going to a PSOB program for 14 y/o. I'll pay my taxes, I make a good living as firefighter, but I don't want my tax dollars WASTED on some BS PSOB program anymore than I want them wasted ag subsidies. Pretty soon we are going to be giving money to every deceased person because they wanted to be firefighters when they were 4. We fought hard to have PSOB programs for families of FIREFIGHTERS killed in the line of duty. Every time some ridiculous claim like the one filed by the Kangas family is promulgated through the court system, the entire program is jeopardized.

    The PSOB program is for firefighters and their families, not whackers - not wannabes.
    OK, so know you have shown what you are really all about. Nice job insulting a large number of the older folks as well as those with medical limitations. My 1040 doesn't say jack about being a fire fighter, yet I am just as much a firefighter as you are.

    As far as I am concerned, if you are a member of the organization in some capacity and you perfrom some sort of firefighting duties, then you are a fire fighter. You need to get the chip off your shoulder and grow up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    OK, so know you have shown what you are really all about. Nice job insulting a large number of the older folks as well as those with medical limitations. My 1040 doesn't say jack about being a fire fighter, yet I am just as much a firefighter as you are.

    As far as I am concerned, if you are a member of the organization in some capacity and you perfrom some sort of firefighting duties, then you are a fire fighter. You need to get the chip off your shoulder and grow up.
    FYI - I serve as a volunteer as well. I don't think that I agree with anything you say, but if you can perform the skills (all of them) of a firefighter. Then yeah, your a firefighter (Not that it matters to me). The PSOB protection is for firefighters (volunteer or paid), not whackers, not wannabes, not cyclists.

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    First, i have been reading these topics, so i know where everyone is coming from and yes bones i see where your coming from, everyone has their own opinion, i just think everybody, meaning everybody that has made a post in either of those threads, is blowing things out of proportion. Not just trotter, sfd, and jeremy. Do you seriously think that this topic has not become way off the beggining point? The topic was about chris kangas and his families wishes, now you have all made it about junior firefighters and explorers as a whole when there is a huge difference between juniors and explorers. Congratulations, most of you have managed to make complete arses out of the fire service.

    Explorers are generaly governed by the boyscouts of america, Where Junior Firefighters are not only employed (in a certain sence) but also governed by the department they are on and that departments policy.

    By the way, I did not ask that those two topics be locked because you disaggree with me, i have not even told you how i feel on the subject so how could you possibly know whether i aggree or disaggree. I asked the topics be locked out of respect for Chris Kangas's memory since everyone seems to want to flame each other in a topic thats meant for him.

    Have a little bit of respect for his family and his friends on the BrookHaven FD.

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    Rand it is pro's not prose, Just a friendly bit of help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1157 View Post
    So let me understand all of your points of views, Hotrotter, sfd, and jeremycfpd all lose their credibilities for making good points, but yet a selfish self centered post like this post by Gein does not cause the loss of credibility?

    I would just like to say i see alot of favoritism going on at these forums, your all brothers, whether you like it or not, nobody has the right to say someone is not your brother just because they have a point of view of there own. I must say i am embarrased at the way your all acting while you call yourselves firefighters, but even with that, your all my brothers. You are arguing and flaming each other over a topic that will be an argument until the end of time as we know it.

    None of you have the right to talk about someones intelligence and maturity level while your all as a group acting the way you are. You dont have to like each other but you do need to get along so the rest of us can enjoy these forums without seeing how you treat each other.

    I ask that the WT Lock this topic, as well as the topic Are Juniors Firefighters, before it gets anymore out of hand.
    Welcome to the Firefighting Discussion forums. Key word is "discussion". Some are more passionate than others. Some are more experienced than others. Some are, dare I say it, more intelligent than others. Some are more prolific at spelling, grammar and punctuation than others. Some have been on these boards longer than others. Some are more vocal while others just like to read.
    And still others are more of a target than others simply because they are not willing to agree with everything that is said here.
    When a point is made again and again and the poster continues to try other avenues to repeat their same arguments, it tests the patience of even the hardened forum veterans. If you hadn't come into this well after the fact, you might not be so quick to ask for a lock. Believe it or not, this thread IS being moderated by the WebTeam. In fact, they have deleted some posts and issued warnings.
    Here is it more like "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" or my favorite "treat others like you are treated". Most of us will hold back, unless we are personally attacked. Then it's gloves off and street rules. When this happens, based on your post, I would avert my eyes, if I were you.
    And again, welcome to the forums.
    I mean that. I have read your stuff; every single post. Good stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1157 View Post
    So let me understand all of your points of views, Hotrotter, sfd, and jeremycfpd all lose their credibilities for making good points, but yet a selfish self centered post like this post by Gein does not cause the loss of credibility?

    I would just like to say i see alot of favoritism going on at these forums, your all brothers, whether you like it or not, nobody has the right to say someone is not your brother just because they have a point of view of there own. I must say i am embarrased at the way your all acting while you call yourselves firefighters, but even with that, your all my brothers. You are arguing and flaming each other over a topic that will be an argument until the end of time as we know it.

    None of you have the right to talk about someones intelligence and maturity level while your all as a group acting the way you are. You dont have to like each other but you do need to get along so the rest of us can enjoy these forums without seeing how you treat each other.

    I ask that the WT Lock this topic, as well as the topic Are Juniors Firefighters, before it gets anymore out of hand.
    Since you are the resident expert on brotherhood and all things fire I will say this. I love my job the way I love my wife. With an understanding of its flaws and willingness to accept some of its problems. Not the way a four year old boy loves his mommy unqualified and without exception.
    Last edited by Geinandputitout; 05-17-2007 at 08:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Just a couple of thoughts here. The IC does not have to be a chief, and may not even be a fire fighter. What about those who are simply "fire fighters" but don't go interior?
    Wowsers.. Trots, you have outdone yourself this time.

    Tell you what, since in your FD "The IC does not have to be a chief, and may not even be a fire fighter".,. why not let the 1st grade teacher at the elementary school run your next fire?
    How about the local barber?

    How about a traveling salesman passing through town? That would be a hoot!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 05-17-2007 at 09:36 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Gonz

    I will bring the deck chairs and brews, you do the eats.

    Should be a good afternoon show.
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    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Wowsers.. Trots, you have outdone yourself this time.

    Tell you what, since in your FD "The IC does not have to be a chief, and may not even be a fire fighter".,. why not let the 1st grade teacher at the elementary school run your next fire?
    How about the local barber?

    How about a traveling salseman passing through town? That would be a hoot!
    Gonz, you beat me to it.

    Iíve been a member of only two departments so Iím willing to accept that there are a lot of departments that operate differently than Iím used to but a non fire fighter as IC????????!!!!!

    On my current department all fire fighters are expected to be able to do anything (other than drive which requires a state license which some us donít have) asked of by the IC/Captain/Lieutenant or any other superior officer. Period!

    Anyone else is a civilian.

    Bill

    P.S. Oh, yes we have a active junior program too. Nobody under 18 goes into the hot zone and nobody goes interior until they pass FF1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resq14 View Post
    Just because people don't agree with you? Wah. Nice first post.
    I doubt it's his first. Smells like Jeremy to me...
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    Quote Originally Posted by whflhff View Post

    P.S. Oh, yes we have a active junior program too. Nobody under 18 goes into the hot zone and nobody goes interior until they pass FF1.
    I feel no one under 18 should even leave the station. I'm not picking on you just stating my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dday05 View Post
    I feel no one under 18 should even leave the station. I'm not picking on you just stating my opinion.
    dday05,

    I don't feel like you're picking on me.

    Our juniors are are really just gophers during a structure fire, or car fire, and there has never been an injury to date.

    Still, we are always rethinking what their roll should be and we may also decide to keep them home. The state is making noises about what they will allow and we have had recent discussions with the insurance co as well.

    Bill

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    and there has never been an injury to date.
    And I bet they said that at Chris' station as well mate.

    Bloody hard road to walk after the event occurs Brother.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    And I bet they said that at Chris' station as well mate.

    Bloody hard road to walk after the event occurs Brother.

    Youíre right, of course.

    And I wonder if youíve hit on the nub of this whole debate. As adults we are suppose to look out for our childrenís well fare. Children arenít expected to have the judgment or maturity to make good decisions about the risks they take, that Ďs what the adults are for.

    And perhaps we arenít doing such a good job.

    Bill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Wowsers.. Trots, you have outdone yourself this time.

    Tell you what, since in your FD "The IC does not have to be a chief, and may not even be a fire fighter".,. why not let the 1st grade teacher at the elementary school run your next fire?
    How about the local barber?

    How about a traveling salesman passing through town? That would be a hoot!
    Sorry to have confused you. I thought we all knew that an IC had to be some authority figure, not an ordinary citizen. The first fire fighter on scene takes control of the scene and becomes the incident commander. Control can be passed off to a higher ranking officer or chief if the incident warrants. If the incident grows large enough the IC may be a county, state, or federal official not even in the department. And on crime scenes the PD takes the role of IC. I never said a citizen off the street could be IC.
    Last edited by HotTrotter; 05-18-2007 at 08:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Sorry to have confused you. I thought we all knew that an IC had to be some authority figure, not an ordinary citizen. The first fire fighter on scene takes control of the scene and becomes the incident commander. Control can be passed off to a higher ranking officer or chief if the incident warrants. If the incident grows large enough the IC may be a county, state, or federal official not even in the department. And on crime scenes the PD takes the role of IC. I never said a citizen off the street could be IC.
    And do you really believe that a County, State, or Federal official that is coming in to take over as IC of your fire scene is not a firefighter at all?

    Because we are talking about the FIRE SERVICE here, not the Police, not FEMA, not the Water Department. Crime scenes?




    If you are a firefighter and you are at a crime scene, if you are shot by the bad guy, do you get recognized as a Police LODD?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    And do you really believe that a County, State, or Federal official that is coming in to take over as IC of your fire scene is not a firefighter at all?

    Because we are talking about the FIRE SERVICE here, not the Police, not FEMA, not the Water Department. Crime scenes?




    If you are a firefighter and you are at a crime scene, if you are shot by the bad guy, do you get recognized as a Police LODD?
    My scene could be a hazmat incident, mass casualty incident, natural disaster, or many other things. In those cases, the person taking over the IC may indeed not be a fire fighter. Remember good friend, we do more than just fight fires.

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    Can anyone else hear barking in the distance?
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1157 View Post
    Rand it is pro's not prose, Just a friendly bit of help.
    No it's not. The word prose was entirely appropriate in that context. He was referencing a posting writing style.

    Definition from Merriam Webster dictionary: the ordinary language people use in speaking or writing

    Just a friendly bit of help.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Sorry to have confused you. I thought we all knew that an IC had to be some authority figure, not an ordinary citizen. The first fire fighter on scene takes control of the scene and becomes the incident commander. Control can be passed off to a higher ranking officer or chief if the incident warrants. If the incident grows large enough the IC may be a county, state, or federal official not even in the department. And on crime scenes the PD takes the role of IC. I never said a citizen off the street could be IC.
    If I could connect your backpedaling to my electric meter, it would be spinning backwards faster than Lance Armstrong pedalling to victory in the Tour De France.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    If I could connect your backpedaling to my electric meter, it would be spinning backwards faster than Lance Armstrong pedalling to victory in the Tour De France.
    No backpeddling at all. I just didn't write the intial post explicitley and in simple enough terms so that everyone understood. I assumed I was speaking with fire fighters who were familiar with the ICS. I also assumed that everyone understood we don't put civilians off the street in those roles. Although I guess technicaly until officals arrive on the scene (PD, FF, EMS, etc) then civilians are actually the ICs. I apologize if you didn't understand these principles

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    Nice try... but totally off the mark as usual.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Did you ever see someone show up at a gun fight with a knife so many times?

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