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  1. #201
    Forum Member FDAIC485's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Ahhh, there was a day when you became 8 your started doing chores, and by 10 you were in the field doing real work. My opinion, we spend to much time babying our young adults.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    And the 60 year old looks back at the young 30 year old kid and says the same thing. Treat them like adults and they will act like adults.

    Do you believe that when an individual who just passed Firefighter I deserves the same respect that an individual who has been in the FD for 20 years, too?
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell


  2. #202
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    I guess that is the diofference between you and me, I treat everyone equally. Doesn't matter what their age, sex, religion, or race. Novel concept
    That is one of the most irrelevant posts you've ever made, as well as one of the dumbest.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    So let me ask this. We have members who only run water shuttles, set up the water source, run the water shuttle, direct traffic, etc. Are these people fighting the fire or not. The only people actually fighting the fires are the ones who put the wet stuff on the hot stuff. Just because one doesn't go inside does that mean they are not a fire fighter?
    Look closely, you answered your own question....
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

  4. #204
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    But what about the guys running the water shuttle? Or how about the chief, who by definition does no fire fighting, his job is to manage and direct. Stay in the little circle know as the command post and work from there. After all, the fire police people are usually old guys who have the training but are just not willing to go interior anymore.
    It's not entirely about what they were doing at that second. Is the guy running the water shuttle a fully trained and qualified firefighter? or is he only trained and qualified at running a water shuttle? I see a difference there.

    The chief, acting as IC, I am hoping is a fully trained and qualified firefighter. Just because his current position is not inside fighting the actual fire is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether he is able to. If he is trained and qualified to, he is a firefighter. If he has no training and can't be in fighting a fire, he is not.

    It's not about "are they doing the job" as much as "can they do the job".

    Kangas could not do the job. He could do some fireground tasks and that was great. But that was it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #205
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    Default Not A firefighter

    This is in response to all this crap about not being a firefighter. I have been on a volunteer department for 24 years. Most of that time has been spent behind the wheel and or at the pump panel. I did an eight year stint as Chief and most recently 3 years as an A/C. Also 4 years as a Chief Engineer and secondary safety officer. So now what this all makes me feel is warm and fuzzy all over, cause if I get killed on the job what will my family get for benefits cause "I'm not a Firefighter", I suffer from claustrophobia in an airpack. And they wonder why I am retirring and the retention levels are so low nationwide. Makes a guy wonder doesn't it. Just my 2 cents worth.

  6. #206
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    [QUOTE=sfd7101;810530]This is in response to all this crap about not being a firefighter. I have been on a volunteer department for 24 years. "I'm not a Firefighter", I suffer from claustrophobia in an airpack. QUOTE]

    Very true --you are a big red truck driver, that delivers the crew to a fire.

    You then give them the means to do the job of "Firefighter"


    If I worked at an airport doing airframe fitting-traveling to and from the airport by plane but not being able fly it, does this make me a Pilot?

    Out of interest -how did you manage to get through basic training without putting a B.A. set on?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd7101 View Post
    This is in response to all this crap about not being a firefighter. I have been on a volunteer department for 24 years. Most of that time has been spent behind the wheel and or at the pump panel. I did an eight year stint as Chief and most recently 3 years as an A/C. Also 4 years as a Chief Engineer and secondary safety officer. So now what this all makes me feel is warm and fuzzy all over, cause if I get killed on the job what will my family get for benefits cause "I'm not a Firefighter", I suffer from claustrophobia in an airpack. And they wonder why I am retirring and the retention levels are so low nationwide. Makes a guy wonder doesn't it. Just my 2 cents worth.
    Can't wear an SCBA -- not a firefighter.

  8. #208
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Here's a concept:
    If you take all of the discussion here on whether or not Chris Kangas was a "firefighter" and deserves all benefits of an LODD, put it into a questionnaire format and feed it into the computer, it would be thrown out. It wouldn't make it to Peer Review.
    You can slice it, dice it, disect it right down to the very last minute detail and if it doesn't fit into the definition that has been established for such a purpose, then he won't make it. Come to think of it, it has been to Peer Review and they said "no".
    Just like the Assistance to Firefighters Grants, you have to meet the eligibility requirements in order to be awarded.
    If we keep it up, any "good samaritan" will meet the definition of "firefighter" simply because they had always wanted to be a firefighter and performed some of those duties on the day that they were walking by a house and saw smoke.
    Don't think it could happen? It happened in our fire district where a "good samaritan" helped out at a field fire with his tractor and disk, was hurt in the process and tried to receive work comp benefits through our fire department.
    He didn't die doing it, but his attorney argued that, for that brief moment, he was a "firefighter". He lost. But, ever since then, we do not take help from the by-standers.
    It's just way too much liability to allow children on the fireground, at traffic accidents or even as spotters while backing a rig back into the fire station.
    How many times can it be said that Chris Kangas was a great kid, wanted to be a firefighter, but wasn't on the day he died?
    It's amazing.
    CR
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  9. #209
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Good post, Chief.

  10. #210
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyisBack View Post
    Ok now your being rediculous, you do not have to be physically fighting the fire to be a firefighter, nor do you have to be certified in interior.

    What your basically saying is search and rescue crews from a truck company who dont even go in with a hose line are not firefighters? And that is the most assnined thing i have ever heard.
    No one is saying (what I'm deciphering from your post) that at all. No one says you have to be on the hose. What people are saying, and I'll type slow, is that you are trained and able to enter a building and fight the fire. Yes, you may be doing search and not on a hoseline, but you are trained and able to be in an IDLH atmosphere. You may even be on the roof venting it. You could even be assigned traffic control at the incident. It's not what you are CURRENTLY performing that determines whether you are a firefighters, it's whether you are sufficiently trained/certified/able to do the tasks.

    Are you trained as a firefighter or are you trained as something else?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    No one is saying (what I'm deciphering from your post) that at all. No one says you have to be on the hose. What people are saying, and I'll type slow, is that you are trained and able to enter a building and fight the fire. Yes, you may be doing search and not on a hoseline, but you are trained and able to be in an IDLH atmosphere. You may even be on the roof venting it. You could even be assigned traffic control at the incident. It's not what you are CURRENTLY performing that determines whether you are a firefighters, it's whether you are sufficiently trained/certified/able to do the tasks.

    Are you trained as a firefighter or are you trained as something else?
    I think he's potty trained....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  12. #212
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    jeremy, how can one be a firefighter, if they aren't certified to actually fight fire?

  13. #213
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    Default Not a firefighter

    So, let me get this straight. If an engine company crashes enroute to a fire the three "not in the driver " seat are considered firefighters and the driver is not. Or, none of them would get benefits because they were only enroute and not actually fighting the fire. Sounds to me like a fine line an insurance company would draw to avoid paying out a claim. Again, just my 2 cents worth.

  14. #214
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    It just seems to me that we are all doing the job of helping our neighbors and why are we splitting hairs over the type of job the individual is doing.? I thought it was a public safety benefit and all the josbs benefit public safety or is that just how a Maine Redneck would look at it?

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd7101 View Post
    If an engine company crashes enroute to a fire the three "not in the driver " seat are considered firefighters and the driver is not.
    It depends. Is the driver a firefighter or a chauffer? Is s/he qualified to do the same job as the 3 "not in the driver seat" members or not? In most departments I know of, drivers are also firefighters and are expected to be able to do everything any other firefighter is expected to do -- not just drive.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  16. #216
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd7101 View Post
    or is that just how a Maine Redneck would look at it?
    Well, well... That about shoots your last shred of credibility.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd7101 View Post
    It just seems to me that we are all doing the job of helping our neighbors and why are we splitting hairs over the type of job the individual is doing.? I thought it was a public safety benefit and all the josbs benefit public safety or is that just how a Maine Redneck would look at it?
    Because on my Federal Form IRS 1040 it says firefighter. I don't want every tax dollar that I earn going to a PSOB program for 14 y/o. I'll pay my taxes, I make a good living as firefighter, but I don't want my tax dollars WASTED on some BS PSOB program anymore than I want them wasted ag subsidies. Pretty soon we are going to be giving money to every deceased person because they wanted to be firefighters when they were 4. We fought hard to have PSOB programs for families of FIREFIGHTERS killed in the line of duty. Every time some ridiculous claim like the one filed by the Kangas family is promulgated through the court system, the entire program is jeopardized.

    The PSOB program is for firefighters and their families, not whackers - not wannabes.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Well, well... That about shoots your last shred of credibility.
    I agree. I think he open foot and stick in mouth. He just joined the HotTrotter club.

    T.J.

  19. #219
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    where did anyone say that you had to be on the line at the moment of your death to be a firefighter anyway?

    All I've been saying, and Bones as well, is that to earn the title of firefighter, you have to actually be able to do all the jobs that title would bring on, which include being able to put a pack on, and grab a handline, and put out a fire. Are truckies firefighters even though they vent, and search? You betcha, cause they went to the same academy and got the same training as the engine crews, and could perform that job is need be. Is the chief a firefighter? I sure as heck hope so. As chief, he probably came up through the ranks, serving in multiple capacieites over the years, one of which better have been as a line firefighter. Is the air rehab guy a firefighter? In my department he is, because he can put a pack on, and do ANY job the chief would ask of him, including putting out the fire. Are the juniors we have firefighters? That would be a big firm no, because they can not perform any of the majority of the functions that are necessary on scene. Changing my bottle out at a fire, does not make someone a firefighter. Graduating from whatever basic training there is for the department, with a state certification that says they can pack up, grab a line, and back me up inside, does.

  20. #220
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    Okay, so the redneck statement wasn't a shining moment. How about this one. Federal forestry guys die in the line of duty all the time and they get benefits. Right? Then why don't you see them weearing an airpack to get the benefits? Do they even train with them? Just food for thought.

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