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    How about the kid that drowned in Arkansas ? Should he be included?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIRE508 View Post
    If he did have insurance and or was covered by the fd workmans comp then I would have to AGREE that he WAS a ff.
    Not true at all. There are lots of civilian positions within the fire department, such as secretaries, that are covered under workman's comp, that do not qualify for LODD. Our department has "honorary" firefighters that have fallen under WC just because they like to help out around the station. They are not FF, and can never be, and do not qualify for LODD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    At the age of 22, he is 4 years above the age of 18 .. the age that most FD's require for one to submit an application and to be considered for membership for a VFD or hired as a career firefighter. I believe that yes, in a training session, it would be considered a LODD. If I recall correctly, Brad Golden was 18 when he was killed by stupidity when the Assistant Chief decided to use a couch as fuel in a position where it blocked the escape route and live victims in a live fire exercise in Lairdsville, NY in December of 1999.
    Fair enough, so the good Deputy Chief says that it IS all about the age thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Actually DrP, no, I would not say that is a LODD either. "He" is still in his initial training and not yet qualified to do the above mentioned activities. He's learning them, and practicing them, but not done yet. NJ "standard" is Firefighter 1, currently using the Delmar Second Edition. When you complete and pass that course, you are "qualified" to perform the duties of a firefighter in the state. From that point forward IMO, you could qualify for LODD.

    In the last class I ran, there were 18 year olds, a few 20-30 year olds, and 2 or 3 30+ year olds. The age didn't matter, except they do need to be at least 18 to take the course.
    If I'm not mistaken, you can take firefighter I at certain fire academies in either NY or NJ (I looked it up a while ago and don't remember which one) that will allow you to take the live burn portions at 16. No, I don't remember which academy, but I called the academy to verify, and they said 16 was their minimum. and yes, I thought it was too young too, but that was their requirements.

    Also, since you feel the standard should be training (a valid point), what about a fire department chaplain? not a trained firefighters, just a chaplain who performs religious stuff for the fire department. Because if it's a training requirement, then you should be saying a certain chaplain from NYC's name needs to have his name taken off the wall too...

    Like I said, if you are going to make a rule, you got to apply it to everyone equally. Which may not be a popular thing to do
    Last edited by DrParasite; 01-24-2007 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    Also, since you feel the standard should be training (a valid point), what about a fire department chaplain? not a trained firefighters, just a chaplain who performs religious stuff for the fire department. Because if it's a training requirement, then you should be saying a certain chaplain from NYC's name needs to have his name taken off the wall too...

    Like I said, if you are going to make a rule, you got to apply it to everyone equally. Which may not be a popular thing to do
    Our chaplain, preist and rabbi are paid members of the department. We don't have any 14 year old paid members on the job here. No explorers, no juniors, just a few retarded fire fans that hang out at the stations and who, by many peoples definitions here, should get benifits? Give me a break. He was a kid who wanted to be a fireman and hung around the station to learn things. I'm sure there are millions of those kids. Are they all firemen?
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    I think what it comes down to is this..

    He was helping out firefighters, however, he is not one.

    He could maybe get some tools, and help clean up, probably not a whole lot more.


    If a nurse hands a doctor a scalpel, does that make her a doctor? No, she/he doesn't do nearly what it takes to be a doctor.


    This case should be cut and dry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Our chaplain, preist and rabbi are paid members of the department. We don't have any 14 year old paid members on the job here. No explorers, no juniors, just a few retarded fire fans that hang out at the stations and who, by many peoples definitions here, should get benifits? Give me a break. He was a kid who wanted to be a fireman and hung around the station to learn things. I'm sure there are millions of those kids. Are they all firemen?
    so now it's a "if you get paid or not" issue? since the religious people receive a paycheck, they should be considered, even though they have no firefighter training at all?

    as for your comment about retarded fire fans, do you give them CFD turnout gear and allow them to respond on CFD apparatus to CFD alarms? If not, then they are nothing like Chris, because (from what I was told) he met the three requirements that I just stated.

    so, to summerize:
    1) age of a person
    2) formal training of a person
    3) whether they receive a paycheck or not

    hmmm, I guess different people have different opinions on what makes a person a firefighter.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, you can take firefighter I at certain fire academies in either NY or NJ (I looked it up a while ago and don't remember which one) that will allow you to take the live burn portions at 16. No, I don't remember which academy, but I called the academy to verify, and they said 16 was their minimum. and yes, I thought it was too young too, but that was their requirements.

    Also, since you feel the standard should be training (a valid point), what about a fire department chaplain? not a trained firefighters, just a chaplain who performs religious stuff for the fire department. Because if it's a training requirement, then you should be saying a certain chaplain from NYC's name needs to have his name taken off the wall too...

    Like I said, if you are going to make a rule, you got to apply it to everyone equally. Which may not be a popular thing to do
    No academy that I am aware of, which admittedly is not every one in the state, will allow anyone under the age of 18 to enter a burn building. Can you take FF1? Yes, up until it gets to the practical evolutions. That I know, is true for my county at the least.

    And if you want my honest, unpopular opinion, your right. I would not be putting fire chaplains on the wall either. And to go further, no Fire Police either. Kind of goes along with why they are "fire chaplains" and/or "fire police" and not firefighter chaplain and/or firefighter police.

    Like I said earlier, I guess the term "firefighter" means more to me than some others.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    hmmm, I guess different people have different opinions on what makes a person a firefighter.
    Some people's lower opinions of what a firefighter is may be why we have guys driving 85mph in their family minivan, guys starting fires to "get more action", guys using their blue lights to pull cars over, guys getting drunk and stealing and crashing fire trucks, etc.

    Maybe we really should start raising our "standards".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    so now it's a "if you get paid or not" issue? since the religious people receive a paycheck, they should be considered, even though they have no firefighter training at all?
    Very touchy with your volunteer pride. The point was the difference between a fourteen year old child who wants to be a fireman and a 20 year paid member of a fire department who spends more time on firegrounds in a year than most do in a career. If you don't see the difference in their status then I can't help it.

    as for your comment about retarded fire fans, do you give them CFD turnout gear and allow them to respond on CFD apparatus to CFD alarms? If not, then they are nothing like Chris, because (from what I was told) he met the three requirements that I just stated.
    Sure, you still see fans on rigs occasionally (some of our fans have made alot of fires in their "careers")and also taking watches at the house. So they get benefits?

    hmmm, I guess different people have different opinions on what makes a person a firefighter.
    Yes they do. In my book children who hang around the firehouse and want to be firemen when they grow up don't make the cut. That they do in anyone's world is a mystery to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Very touchy with your volunteer pride. The point was the difference between a fourteen year old child who wants to be a fireman and a 20 year paid member of a fire department who spends more time on firegrounds in a year than most do in a career. If you don't see the difference in their status then I can't help it.

    Sure, you still see fans on rigs occasionally (some of our fans have made alot of fires in their "careers")and also taking watches at the house. So they get benefits?

    Yes they do. In my book children who hang around the firehouse and want to be firemen when they grow up don't make the cut. That they do in anyone's world is a mystery to me.
    It's got nothing to do with volunteer pride. you used the example of having the priest, rabbi and chaplin getting paid and therefore that makes them different.

    btw, Chris wasn't just a kid who wanted to be a fireman, he was a member of the explorer post that was affiliated with a fire department, that responded to calls with the fire department. big difference, shame you can't see it.

    you let fans riding your rigs when you go to fires/alarms? wow, most departments wouldn't allow it because of liability reasons. But if you do, you think I can rid a CFD truck at your house going to fire, and maybe even help out at a scene when I am in the area?

    again, get out of the 100% paid world, and look at the volunteer system, one that does have junior member program, as well as explorer programs. and They also use new people as the future of their department, and do allow them to contribute on scenes. Again, whether you agree with it or not, is immaterial, the fact of the matter is that departments do run these programs.

    and because of the nature of the death, I feel he deserves to be considered a LODD.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Career departments also sponsor Explorer posts...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    you let fans riding your rigs when you go to fires/alarms? wow, most departments wouldn't allow it because of liability reasons. But if you do, you think I can rid a CFD truck at your house going to fire, and maybe even help out at a scene when I am in the area?
    No, you can't ride a truck at my house - single engine. But when you get to town gimme a ring and I'm sure we can sneak you on!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief310 View Post
    I was proud to sign the petition. I donít believe that recognizing this exceptional young man for what he was in any way demeans or cheapens the meaning of the title Firefighter. If someday God calls me home in the line of duty, I would be honored to have my name displayed right next to Chris Kangas.

    I RESPECTFULLY disagree with those who believe young people have no business in the firehouse. Are there risks associated with participating in a youth firefighting program? Of course there are. There are risks involved in each and every human activity. The world is an inherently dangerous place. There are many, many hazards to young people of today.

    Does anyone really think that participating in a youth firefighting program is truly the most risky or dangerous activity that a young person can participate in? I donít. While it is certainly not possible to eliminate all of the risks associated with being a junior firefighter, it is my contention that if the program is properly managed and reasonable precautions are observed, it is far safer than other organized activities that our youth routinely participate in. Take sports, for example. Studies show that there are as many as 2.1 injuries per 100 exposures (games, practices, etc.) in youth sports. Do a Google search on something like ďyouth football deathĒ and see what you get. Youíll find that there are far more sports-related deaths than junior firefighters killed in the line of duty. Yet, I donít hear any great outcry to ban young people from participating in this obviously dangerous activity. Why? The answer is simple: because the benefits of participating in sports outweigh the risks. In my mind, the same can be said for youth firefighting programs.

    Before I go on, I would like to make clear that I do not advocate using youth to participate in overtly hazardous activities or allowing them to enter IDLH environments. Furthermore, I do not believe in utilizing junior firefighters as a replacement for adults. I believe that we, as fire department and youth program leaders, should do everything within our power to keep our young members safe and healthy. In my department, we follow the nationally recognized standard for youth programs as published by BSAís Learning for Life office. It does permit ride-alongs, but under controlled conditions with very strict prohibitions on certain hazardous activities. If Iím not mistaken and Iím sure someone will correct me if Iím wrong, this safety standard has been recognized by national fire service organizations such as the IAFC.

    So what are the benefits of youth firefighting programs that could possibly outweigh the risks? There are many, to the department, to the community, and to the young people involved. Yes, I know large career departments like Chicago donít have a problem recruiting new members. The same canít be said, however, for many small town volunteer departments. Youth programs are legitimately used as a means to recruit new members. When a youth member reaches adulthood, after serving several years as a junior, they can easily move up to the adult ranks. Imagine having a ďnewĒ member who already knows your departmentís SOPís, equipment, streets, hydrants, hazardous occupancies, etc., This can be a tremendous benefit to the department.

    And what of the kids? Do they really benefit from being a junior firefighter? You bet they do. I had the father of one of the many Explorers Iíve mentored over the years tell me that he honestly believed that we saved his son from a life of alcohol, drugs and delinquency. We gave him something to focus on and to strive for. Today, (or when I last heard from him), he is a paramedic in the southern part of our state. Heís just one example of MANY success stories I can tell about youth programs Iíve been involved with. I personally know many firefighters, EMTís, paramedics, lieutenants, captains, battalion chiefs, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs and fire chiefs, as well as an ER doctor, a police sergeant and a deputy sheriff, all of whom began their careers as members of youth programs. Yes, I myself was a member of an Explorer Post, and I thank God for it. That experience, probably more than anything else, is responsible for the career path that I chose, and where I am today. It introduced me to the brotherhood that is the fire service, and the joy that is helping others.

    Yes, I know many of you may not feel itís your job to be a youth counselor or a babysitter. Itís not in your job description to help keep kids off the streets, away from gangs & drugs, and to give them something productive to do. Maybe itís not in your job description as a firefighter, but shouldnít it be? Whether you accept it or not, your job makes you a role model. Many kids will naturally look up to you, and some may want to be like you. Is that such a terrible thing?



    well said!

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    Like I said eariler......
    It doesnt matter what he was called, a ff or a jr, WE SHOULD ALL BE PROUD TO CALL HIM ONE OF OUR FELLOW BROTHERS...PERIOD.
    Last edited by FIRE508; 01-25-2007 at 01:15 AM.

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    14 years old is a minor. 18 yrs old and older are "adults".

    Most departments you have to be 18yrs old or older to be employed.

    We also have an Explorer Post (post 800) I started as an Explorer 16years ago. Great opprotunity to learn and train. The BSA have very strict rules what an Explorer can and cannot do. Responding to calls is NOT one of them.

    As tragic as it is, he was not a firefighter, he was a JUNIOR firefighter and should be honored as such. I agree with most here.

    I did not sign. DOT mad the right choice.
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    He was considered a firefighter by his department. He was considered a firefighter by the state. He was and should be considered a firefighter, with all honors and benefits, by the feds.

    I am sure that he was not envolved in active fire supression. However, he most likely did play a role in supressing fires. Maybe that role was water supply. Maybe that role was setting up lighting, or changing bottles in rehab. All those roles are perfectly acceptable for junior firefighters. All those roles are necessary for fire department operations. All those things need to happen as part of the firefighting operation. Why are we questioning if he is a firefighter? I guess we need to question if that light duty guy driving the air rehab unit in a career department gets killed, is he a firefighter. After all, he was just providing a support function, right?

    We have many folks on our department, as well as in some of my past departments that do the same thing. They don't want to or physically can't go interior or vent a roof, but they are perfectly capable of pumping a truck, driving a tanker, setting up lights, providing medical support or any other non-supression task we give them. Because they can't or don't wish to go inside or be on a roof does that make them any less important to the firefighting operation?

    Our juniors do all of the above. And yes, we let them do a little firefighting. They are allowed to work on a brush crew during normal conditions with a senior member. They are allowed to assist with exterior hose operations. They are allowed to assist with outside overhaul when SCBA is not required per our CO policy. They are allowed to get some experience in in supervised, controlled situations. They are NOT activly envolved in supression operations within a structure (including roof ops) at any time or during wildland operations when weather, fuel conditions or terrain make the operation risky.
    They do not run tools or provide patiernt care at MVAs and are not allowed in the vehicles. They get equipment and set up lighting.

    They are allowed limited interior overhaul experience during training burns and do train with SCBAs in our smoke maze and burn building.

    I guess I feel that in a rural setting, these folks who provide support operations, including junior firefighters are just as much firefighters as they guy making the push inside. they play a role in the operations. They, and Chris was, firefighters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    He was considered a firefighter by his department. He was considered a firefighter by the state. He was and should be considered a firefighter, with all honors and benefits, by the feds.

    I am sure that he was not envolved in active fire supression. However, he most likely did play a role in supressing fires. Maybe that role was water supply. Maybe that role was setting up lighting, or changing bottles in rehab. All those roles are perfectly acceptable for junior firefighters. All those roles are necessary for fire department operations. All those things need to happen as part of the firefighting operation. Why are we questioning if he is a firefighter? I guess we need to question if that light duty guy driving the air rehab unit in a career department gets killed, is he a firefighter. After all, he was just providing a support function, right?

    We have many folks on our department, as well as in some of my past departments that do the same thing. They don't want to or physically can't go interior or vent a roof, but they are perfectly capable of pumping a truck, driving a tanker, setting up lights, providing medical support or any other non-supression task we give them. Because they can't or don't wish to go inside or be on a roof does that make them any less important to the firefighting operation?

    Our juniors do all of the above. And yes, we let them do a little firefighting. They are allowed to work on a brush crew during normal conditions with a senior member. They are allowed to assist with exterior hose operations. They are allowed to assist with outside overhaul when SCBA is not required per our CO policy. They are allowed to get some experience in in supervised, controlled situations. They are NOT activly envolved in supression operations within a structure (including roof ops) at any time or during wildland operations when weather, fuel conditions or terrain make the operation risky.
    They do not run tools or provide patiernt care at MVAs and are not allowed in the vehicles. They get equipment and set up lighting.

    They are allowed limited interior overhaul experience during training burns and do train with SCBAs in our smoke maze and burn building.

    I guess I feel that in a rural setting, these folks who provide support operations, including junior firefighters are just as much firefighters as they guy making the push inside. they play a role in the operations. They, and Chris was, firefighters.


    As well thought out as your response was, its still far from correct.

    Chris was a great kid, but he didnít do nearly what it takes to be a firefighter.

    He was an assistant to the actual firefighters.

    Is the person who grabs the Tee after a kickoff an NFL player?

    Is the Bat Boy on the Roster for any MLB teams?

    Is the nurse a Doctor because she hands him a scalpel?


    The list can go on. As many things as Chris may have been, a certified firefighter is not one of them.

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    Chris was a Jr Firefighter not an Explorer, He was a member of the Brookhaven Fire Company the same as any other member. If you are not from PA you may not realize that in PA the Child Labor law allows people age 14-17to be JR firefighters, respond to calls, do training etc. The program has been very sucessful in recruting and retaining volunteers, get them interested early. I was even dismissed from school in HS for fire calls, and at one high school very near Brookhaven there was a pager in the main office of the school and fire calls were announced over the schools intercom so that the Vol firefighters could leave.

    As for me I took my basic fire class at age 17 in the same county as Brookhaven, one town away to be exact (Co 45) and participated in all the training including the live burn. At the time 16 and 17 year olds could pack up at training but not for calls.

    In many other states Chris would not be a firefighter, in my own department today there is no place for teenage responders but in PA it is that way and its legal. Different rules in differenet parts of the country. In some states you can't use tobaco and be a firefighter, every state has different rules.
    Last edited by spegram; 01-25-2007 at 02:11 PM.

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    Different rules in differenet parts of the country.
    and that is why it is a Federal program and not a State program.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    " He was considered a firefighter because his department said he was " OK
    Just remember that statment when you complain that volunteers arent given the same respect that the paid ranks get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spegram View Post
    Chris was a Jr Firefighter not an Explorer, He was a member of the Brookhaven Fire Company the same as any other member.
    Jr. Firefighter is correct. Thats it.

    I would assume the "other members" probably have some classes they had to take to be firefighters. Probably had a physical/written test... Did he take these? Of course not.

    Things may be different where he is from, but if you like it or not, Bones said it right, this is a federal program, not state. If your state wants to give him a statue next to the Rocky statue, go for it (wasn't that taken down?). If they want to give his family money, ok, but other than that, its wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIRE508 View Post
    Like I said eariler......
    It doesnt matter what he was called, a ff or a jr, WE SHOULD ALL BE PROUD TO CALL HIM ONE OF OUR FELLOW BROTHERS...PERIOD.
    He is a brother; a LITTLE brother. An Explorer; a junior firefighter who does not qualify for PSOBs.
    Many of you are saying the same thing over and over again, making the same arguments over and over again.
    And the bottom line is: unless you can tell me one other firefighter who went to firefighter academy at the age of 14, successfully completed it, came out, got behind the wheel of an engine, drove it to a fire, hooked the hydrant for a water supply, operated the pump at the scene, troubleshooted the water hammer without losing pressure to the nozzle on the attack team and drove back to the station, then and only then will I say that you have a valid argument for a 14 YEAR OLD AS A "FIREFIGHTER".
    Until then, my opinion is unchanged.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason View Post
    Many of you are saying the same thing over and over again, making the same arguments over and over again.
    CR
    As usual, Chief R makes a great point.

    It seems everyone has their minds made up, and no amount of arguing is going to change that. On this issue, we're going to have to agree to respectfully disagree and leave it at that.

    Until there's something truely new and different to say on the subject..........

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    We have many folks on our department, as well as in some of my past departments that do the same thing. They don't want to or physically can't go interior or vent a roof, but they are perfectly capable of pumping a truck, driving a tanker, setting up lights, providing medical support or any other non-supression task we give them. Because they can't or don't wish to go inside or be on a roof does that make them any less important to the firefighting operation?

    So much for the whole Ďvolunteers are the same as careerí line then, huh? I donít get to pick and choose my role at a fire, and as far as I know all members are required to go into a fire, not Ďprovide a support roleí.

    If someone canít PHYSICALLY vent a roof, or go interior, or perform other tasks at a fire, they have no business on the fire ground, volunteer or career. I thought it was all the same, no difference. I guess we just saw how it really is, eh?

    As far as Chris is concerned, whoever had him responding needs a good kick in the *****. He was a child, and should have been doing kids things, not responding to a fire in any capacity.
    We have an explorer post here. It is a learning tool for kids to learn more about the profession of firefighting. The classes are conducted at our academy, and material is presented to them. They are allowed to handle tools, participate in drills, and tour different engine houses. They are never allowed anywhere close to an actual fire.
    I really have a hard time understanding how people think out there. It outright scares me at times, and this is one of those times.

    There is no place on the fire ground for children, or for people who CANíT perform basic firefighting functions. Good grief, did I really read that?

  25. #100
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    If someone canít PHYSICALLY vent a roof, or go interior, or perform other tasks at a fire, they have no business on the fire ground
    On that, I will disagree.

    I understand your point, but I have no problem having a guy that after 20 years, knows it a better physical choice for his life to not put on a SCBA and crawl around inside a burning building but knows he is still full, well, and capable of driving and pumping an engine. And that allows me to have a more physically fit FF "going in" as opposed to him standing outside pumping an engine.

    (of course, if by "other tasks at a fire", would mean driving/operating - then ignore my post)
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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