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  1. #101
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    spegram, I'm in PA, and Chris, was not considered a full firefighter here, even though the state decided he should get benefits. They say he was a firefighter, but these are the same people that also said PA Jrs. are not allowed to actively participate in suppression operations, or be near the IDLH.

  2. #102
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    So in other words Jasper, we ignore those in our communities that may be perfectly capable of performing support functions such as driving apparatus, pumping apparatus, working tanker shuttles, changing bottles and setting up lighting, just because they can't or don't wish to be active in supression operations?

    It's not like we have to pay them. It's not like thier being thier is taking up the place on the roster of an interior firefighter. In fact, them being there is actually freeing up an interior firefighter from a support task so that they can be an interior firfighter, not a pump operator or bottle changer.

    I am really having a hard time understanding the mentality that someone has no place on the fireground unless they can or want to do it all. Someone does not have to undertsnad ventilation to pump or drive a truck. Someone does not need any knowledge at all of building construction to change bottles or set up lights. This is the mentality that in fact has hurt the fire service. Many volunteer departments are now seeing the light that folks trained in fireground support operations are as competent as firefighters, and in some cases do a better job because they are concentrating on thier jobs, not how to get closer to the fire.

    Think of how much more effective, as an example, our public education programs could be if (and here's a radical thought) if we didn't use firefighters who didn't really wanted to be there, but needed to complete thier 20 years, and actually brought in professional, trained educators to educate. Wow ... and why do you need to be a firefighter to teach pub ed? There really is no reason ... because what you need in that role are teachers, not firefighters. That's just one example. The last volunteer department I was on resisted bringing in a member of the community who wanted to help us in organizational planning because he was not a firefighter, and "could not possibly understand the dynamics of a fire department". It's that mentality that holds us back and prevents the fire service from taking advantage of the wealth of talent those "outsiders" have to offer.

    Guess I drifted off topic.

    We are all going to have our opinions on this. I do not feel that junior firefighters should be activly envolved in supression operations. They do have thier place in water supply and support roles when properly trained and supervised. He was a recognized memeber of the department and IMO should be recognized as a firefighter with all privledges.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-26-2007 at 05:42 AM.

  3. #103
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    This whole thread is disturbing me personaly. I am going to take some time and research a few things, then come back.

    Until then.

    An accepted physiological fact is that between 17 and 18 is the accepted point in life where the frontal lobe control logic, and rational thought has grown, and developed into its adult state.

    At 22 I was in an elite miltary unit for my country. The difference of 8 years between me at 14 and me at 22 was significant.

    At 43 I can look at 25 years of service for my country in many different functions and say one thing.

    I would NEVER place a 14 year old life into the situations I have been through.

    To do that would personaly be guilty of MURDER, if anything happened to that CHILD.

    Look into yourself Brothers. Would YOU allow a child into or near the sights you have seen.

    Please tread carefully here. He was a glowing spark of life. He was cut short.

    Kia Kaha Brother warrior.

    The people that promoted his behavior and the systemic failure behind his death do not need to be chastised. Although in my mind it was tantamount to murder.

    The systemic failure needs to change nationwide to prevent this bollocks from occuring again.

    Any problems with that?
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Are there 14 year old police officers?
    Are there 14 year old corrections officers?
    Are 14 year olds allowed to serve in the military?

    The answer is no.

    If a 14 year old were working in an industrial facility and was killed, OSHA, Niosh and the State's versions of them would come down on the offending company like a ton of bricks. They would be fined tens of thousands of dollars, and trhe parentrs would more than likely sue for pain, suffering and for punitive damages.

    Chris Kangas may have been a good kid, and he should be recognized for that... by his hometown.

    I am sorry, but he wasn't a firefighter in the literal sense of the word.

    The DOJ made the correct call.
    I agree with Gonzo, This youngman was not a Firefighter he was a 14 year old explorer\cadet\ jr firefighter whatever it is they refer to, There are some questions that need to be answered like why was this young man allowed to respond on his bike to a response? , Most department's out here require you tobe a minium age of 16 before joining there explorer programs, SO I must say I disagree with his family being given federal death benefits

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So in other words Jasper, we ignore those in our communities that may be perfectly capable of performing support functions such as driving apparatus, pumping apparatus, working tanker shuttles, changing bottles and setting up lighting, just because they can't or don't wish to be active in supression operations?

    It's not like we have to pay them. It's not like thier being thier is taking up the place on the roster of an interior firefighter. In fact, them being there is actually freeing up an interior firefighter from a support task so that they can be an interior firfighter, not a pump operator or bottle changer.

    I am really having a hard time understanding the mentality that someone has no place on the fireground unless they can or want to do it all. Someone does not have to undertsnad ventilation to pump or drive a truck. Someone does not need any knowledge at all of building construction to change bottles or set up lights. This is the mentality that in fact has hurt the fire service. Many volunteer departments are now seeing the light that folks trained in fireground support operations are as competent as firefighters, and in some cases do a better job because they are concentrating on thier jobs, not how to get closer to the fire.

    Think of how much more effective, as an example, our public education programs could be if (and here's a radical thought) if we didn't use firefighters who didn't really wanted to be there, but needed to complete thier 20 years, and actually brought in professional, trained educators to educate. Wow ... and why do you need to be a firefighter to teach pub ed? There really is no reason ... because what you need in that role are teachers, not firefighters. That's just one example. The last volunteer department I was on resisted bringing in a member of the community who wanted to help us in organizational planning because he was not a firefighter, and "could not possibly understand the dynamics of a fire department". It's that mentality that holds us back and prevents the fire service from taking advantage of the wealth of talent those "outsiders" have to offer.

    Guess I drifted off topic.

    We are all going to have our opinions on this. I do not feel that junior firefighters should be activly envolved in supression operations. They do have thier place in water supply and support roles when properly trained and supervised. He was a recognized memeber of the department and IMO should be recognized as a firefighter with all privledges.
    What happens when you have a fire and everyone who shows up is only capable of operating a pump, setting up lighting and changing bottles? It sucks for the person trapped inside, doesn't it?

    Every firefighter should be trained to and able to perform the functions necessary to operate on a fireground. None of this "exterior firefighter only" BS.

    A fireground is a dangerous place. Conditons can change in an instant, putting even those "junior firefighters" working in a support role into an IDLH atmosphere/situation within seconds.

    Normal, rational people do not allow children to "play" in dangerous places... including the fireground
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 01-26-2007 at 11:53 AM. Reason: edited for emphasis!
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  6. #106
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    It's not like thier being thier is taking up the place on the roster of an interior firefighter.
    Do what you want with your department, just don’t ever try to tell me that a volunteer job is the same as a career job ever again. By your attitude and opinion, it is clear to me that they’re not.
    What do you do if all you have show up to your fire are ‘exterior’? Get real, either the jobs are the same, or they aren’t. We don’t have the luxury of letting people pick and choose what they do on a fire scene, and I guarantee our staffing for a fire exceeds yours. We expect all of our firefighters to be able to all jobs at a fire scene. Weird concept, I know.


    I am really having a hard time understanding the mentality that someone has no place on the fireground unless they can or want to do it all. Someone does not have to undertsnad ventilation to pump or drive a truck.
    And you call yourself a teacher? How can you do one job on a fire ground, and not understand what the other guys are doing? Everyone needs to know every job, or at least understand it. You never know what capacity, or what job you will really have at a fire. The fire dictates much of that, as well as other circumstances. Besides, why would you waste one position on every rig? Our truck drivers actively fight fires, and are a part of our operations. Because they are FIREFIGHTERS, they perform ventilation, searches, force entry, secure utilities, and so on.
    Our engineers pump, but how can you pump when you have no clue as to what the guys inside are doing, or seeing, or feeling?

    and "could not possibly understand the dynamics of a fire department". It's that mentality that holds us back and prevents the fire service from taking advantage of the wealth of talent those "outsiders" have to offer.
    Are you serious? How can you teach fire safety, unless you have taken heat in a fire? How can you stress the importance of staying low, unless you have experience high heat with no-visibility?
    We have a record number of civilian employee’s now, due to drastic cuts and reductions. Non of them have a true understanding of the job that we perform.
    If you want to teach fire safety, and represent the department, you had better have performed the job.
    There is no way a civilian, with great intentions, can understand what it is like to push on a fire, or crawl thru searing heat and search, unless they have done that.


    Chief Gonzo, great post. I agree with you whole heartedly.

    I also stand by my previous statement, that whoever put Chris is this position needs their ***** kicked. There is no place for any child, on any fire ground, in any capacity.
    I can only imagine how the conversation would go were I to inform my battalion chief at a fire, that I was now an 'exterior' firefighter only.
    Last edited by jasper45; 01-26-2007 at 11:37 AM.

  7. #107
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    Last post.

    Let me explain something. I never advocated a department composed of 100% support members. On my current department, we have about 70 volunteer members. Of those 70, 10 are dispatchers, 7 are junior firefighters and about 10 are support personnel. That leaves about 43 as officers and interior firefighters or personnel training to be interior firefighters. On my last department, which also used fireground support staff, the ratio was about the same (minus the dispatchers), but the overall numbers were slightly smaller. On a typical structure fire call we pull maybe 2-3 juniors and 2-3 support members, and we average 17 officers/firefighters. If we did not have those support personnel, we would have to pull from those 17 firefighters for lighting, SCBA rehab and in some cases, pump operations. I guess I am really having a problem seeing why having extra folks trained to perform tasks that need to be performed on the fireground, which frees up interior firefighters. What exactly is the problem? These are folks that for a variety of reasons can't or prefer not to fight fire but wish to assist. So it would be better for us to take those 17 firefighters and assign 2 to SCBA changing and 1 to lighting and 1 to medical support leaving 12 firefighters available for operations rather than use trained support staff? Why does someone who's sole purpose is changing bottles need to know anything about fire operations? Why does someone whose purpose is to simply drive a tanker from point A to point B and dump water need to know the collapse point for steel? Please explain this to me. Mutual aid here is very limited and rather far away ... why is the use of trained support personnel an issue? Please explain to me the problem they are causing.

    Our engineers pump, but how can you pump when you have no clue as to what the guys inside are doing, or seeing, or feeling?
    We pump by SOPs. If the interior crews needs pressure beyond the SOPs they call for it. Sorry, I disagree that a pump operator needs to know what it's like inside. Our pump operators are dedicated pump operators. If they are flowing a line they are on the pump panel, and they do not leave that panel to perform other tasks, other than water supply related functions. He needs to understand the pump, and how to make adjustments for changes in flows and supply. A non-firefighter with a basic understanding of hydralics can be trained to do this job, especially here where the pumping is quite basic. In fact, most of the medics on the parish EMS unit housed at our station are cross-trained to drive and pump our engines (as part of the mutual aid agreement they drive and pump the engine to/at any fire call and the medic unit goes out of service), and most of them are not firefighters, and they do just fine. Should we end this practice as well? Our EMT support staff members treats our firefighters in the rehab area or at an MVA or EMS incident, the same as the non-firefighting trained parish medics. What's the difference?

    We expect all of our firefighters to be able to all jobs at a fire scene. Weird concept, I know
    We expect all of our firefighters who have completed our probabtionary program and earned thier firefighter crest to know every job as well. The majority of the department is composed of firefighters. Once a firefighter, they do have a choice if they wish to recieve an EMS certification and be envolved in EMS, and do have a choice if they wish to be envolved in the technical rescue team. Support personnel augment the firefighters. The fact that they are there allows our firefighers to be available for firefighting tasks. Again, what is the issue?

    Are you serious? How can you teach fire safety, unless you have taken heat in a fire? How can you stress the importance of staying low, unless you have experience high heat with no-visibility?
    Educators teach all the time about places they have never been and things they have never personally experienced. How many teachers teach about space or the rain forest or just about anything else, and have never been there? Probably close to 100% Lesson plans designed by educators with the help of experieced firefighters and relavent, stimulating support materials can turn any competent educator into a very effective firesafety educator. The fact is educators who understand how to teach effectivly, can effectivly teach any subject, including firesafety. If the program was about being a firefighter, not firesafety, I agree, a experienced firefighter would be more effective, but that is not the point of firesafety education. It is simply to teach proactive and reactive behaviors using established educational methods in a well-designed manner. Firefighters, unless they have been put through a fairly comprehensive training program (which most are not) cannot teach as effectivly, especially with today's diverse school populations.

    Do what you want with your department, just don’t ever try to tell me that a volunteer job is the same as a career job ever again. By your attitude and opinion, it is clear to me that they’re not.
    The job is the same, but the volunteer service needs to find different ways to do the job. There will always be members of the community who want to fight fire and become full-bore firefighters, and for them the basic job is the same. There are other members of the community who want to be envolved but don't wish to, can't or no longer can (as in Bones 20-year veteren example) who no longer can fight fire. They are very different from city firefighters. the volunteer service has the luxury of being able to make room for these folks and carry extra bodies. The paid service does not as they have a limited number of budgeted bodies. I never compared them to paid firefighters. They are not as qualified by do perform a role, which frees up interior folks.

    I just don't get the problem.

    As far as Chris, we will all have our opinions on that. Coming from a more surburban/rural perspective, we will differ more than likely.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-26-2007 at 11:52 PM.

  8. #108
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    I guess I am really having a problem seeing why having extra folks trained to perform tasks that need to be performed on the fireground, which frees up interior firefighters. What exactly is the problem?
    Other than the fact that a 14 year old child was killed doing this??? No other problem, I guess....
    So it would be better for us to take those 17 firefighters and assign 2 to SCBA changing and 1 to lighting and 1 to medical support
    Or you could change your own gd bottle and save two. Lighting??? Wheres your flashlight? Thats you lighting. What is with all these goofy assignments?
    Sorry, I disagree that a pump operator needs to know what it's like inside. Our pump operators are dedicated pump operators.
    Our engineers are tested and promoted. They are professionally trained to do their jobs, and they are required to have at least five years as a firefighter before they are allowed to move up. Are you really saying you want some civilian handjob or medic running the pump when you are in a fire? Good for you, but I would prefer a trained, experienced fireman on the panel who knows whats going on with his job and my job too. How can you be a good engineer when you have zero idea what it's like on the other end?
    The job is the same, but the volunteer service needs to find different ways to do the job. There will always be members of the community who want to fight fire and become full-bore firefighters, and for them the basic job is the same. There are other members of the community who want to be envolved but don't wish to, can't or no longer can (as in Bones 20-year veteren example) who no longer can fight fire. They are very different from city firefighters. the volunteer service has the luxury of being able to make room for these folks and carry extra bodies. the paid service does not. I never compared them to paid firefighters. they are not as qualified by do perform a role, which frees up interior folks.
    Apparently the job isn't the same. There are no levels of firemen here. All are fully trained and expected to perform at a fire. We train and drill every single day and our promoted members are experienced firemen before they are anything else. With all your focus on safety I am surprised at your casual attitude when it comes to children and invalids on the fireground doing this job. It sounds more like a circus than a well trained, skilled, professional operation. But whatever, it's your town and your neighbors lives and property - not mine.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We expect all of our firefighters who have completed our probabtionary program and earned thier firefighter crest to know every job as well.
    Last I checked Juinor Firefighters do not raise their hand and take an oath. They do not recieve a badge or have to pass a probationary period.

    If this is going to be your criteria for being a firefighter, than by your own admission, this young man does not qualify as a firefighter.

    As someone with military and firefighting experience, no 14 year old should be doing anything on a fireground except taking pictures behind police caution tape

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ....So it would be better for us to take those 17 firefighters and assign 2 to SCBA changing and 1 to lighting and 1 to medical support leaving 12 firefighters available for operations rather than use trained support staff? ....
    Without taking a position either way on the merits of this particular system, what is significant is that you clearly distinguish "support" positions from "firefighter" positions.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as Chris, we will all have our opinions on that. Coming from a more surburban/rural perspective, we will differ more than likely.
    I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that you were in favor of considering him a "firefighter". As you have stated that the quoted post was your last I won't expect you to reply but let me point out that your post would seem to support the position that he was not a "firefighter" as his role was clearly what you have categorized as a non-firefighter "support" position.
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    Lighting??? Wheres your flashlight? Thats you lighting. What is with all these goofy assignments?
    You need a lighting officer to coordinate all the flood lights that will be lighting up the OUTSIDE of the building. Most firefighters won't notice this from the inside though...
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Ok

    http://fallenbrothers.com/community/...ead.php?t=2441

    Read that, especially the opening post explaining what occured.

    THEN try to tell me how this even comes close to being a LODD.

    "We were just sitting there getting ready to have a barbecue and we heard the sirens," said Messner, who has only been on the Brookhaven police force for one of his 12 years in the field. "He was asking me, 'Is that us, is that us?' Then he got on his bike. I told him to be careful, and that I'd put the hamburgers on."
    Kangas proceeded to pedal to the Brookhaven Police Station where he checked in with Officer Adam Brown who was on patrol Saturday.
    "He asked me if I knew the nature of the alarm," said Brown, who has been on the Brookhaven force for nearly three years. "When I told him I didn't know he just left. The accident happened about two minutes later.
    Pennsylvania law does not allow junior firefighters to actually be involved with the fighting of a fire. They are not allowed in a burning building, or near a car fire. Yet, the time they spend in the firehouse gives them valuable experience.
    "He was learning the job," Grant said. "He was training at the fire house, and learning what it took to be a fireman. Mostly, when we would get a call, he would help us get ready to go, or stay back at the house to help out whoever was still around. Every free moment he had he was in the firehouse. All he wanted to do was be a fireman. It's what he enjoyed the most."
    Read the rest of it.

    And then give it a rest will you.
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    It's tough to make a comment about this without getting emotional.

    But here are the facts: He was riding his bike to his station for a reported alarm.

    (How many times do we hear and read about a LODD of a fire fighter responding to a call while driving their P.O.V.?)

    Does the fact that his age at the time was 14 bother some here? Apparently, but keep in mind he was not involved in suppression activites. He was riding his bike. I guess for some, whether career or volunteer, age matters whether or not this young man deserves to have his name on the Fallen Fire Fighters Memorial.

    Remember this, when your department has a LODD does it matter what age that person was? Does it matter whether or not they could actively particpate in suppression activities? Does it matter whether or not they were actually at the station, on the scene or responding on a bike.

    I am very disappointed in some of the comments made by those who do not believe that this was a LODD.

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    If he was an explorer riding along with the police and he got shot, would it be a LODD? He sounds like he was a great kid. What happened to that young man is a terrible tragedy. I would hope that there was insurance for him and that his family will be taken care of by the community.

    IMHO to put him on the wall with all of our brothers and sisters who have given their lives performing their JOBS is to dramatically alter the definition of a LODD. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

    I've been to full FD honors funerals for people who died on their full time job (which had nothing to do with the FD) and people who died in motorcycle accidents off duty. I didn't agree with that either. Sorry if that sounds "harsh."
    Last edited by NYSmokey; 01-28-2007 at 10:26 AM. Reason: change in wording
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leeland View Post
    But here are the facts: He was riding his bike to his station for a reported alarm.
    If you review the "facts" you will find that you are in error. He heard sirens -- the neighboring deprtment as it turned out -- and rode his bike to find someone with a radio to find out if it was an alarm. He then rode his bike to the local station. He was not called in; he was not an emergency responder of any kind. He was a good kid who belonged to a fire department junior corps and he went to the firehouse to see what was going on. Why isn't that enough?
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    Support roles, WTF... You want a support role, go to the station and make me a sandwich. And people wonder why vollies will never be considered professional by many of the career guys? Any doubt, read lafireeducator's posts.
    I feel that he does not belong on the National Firefighters Memeorial, he was a 14 year old child explorer, not a train, qualified firefighter. He wasn't sworn, appointed, he wasn't what ever PA vollies do to call themselve firefighters.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 01-28-2007 at 12:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYSmokey
    If he was an explorer riding along with the police and he got shot, would it be a LODD?
    Good example, but here's the kicker. Are police explorers allowed to ride along on patrol? If it does happen out there, I'll admit to being completely shocked.


    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal
    If you review the "facts" you will find that you are in error. He heard sirens -- the neighboring deprtment as it turned out -- and rode his bike to find someone with a radio to find out if it was an alarm. He then rode his bike to the local station. He was not called in; he was not an emergency responder of any kind. He was a good kid who belonged to a fire department junior corps and he went to the firehouse to see what was going on. Why isn't that enough?
    That's not entirely correct, either.

    As it turns out, the fire call was not in Brookhaven at all.

    "We got a call to be on stand-by for a house fire in Concordville," said Grant. "We hadn't even left yet, when we got the call on Christopher's accident. We sent a truck over there right away, and our EMTs were doubly devastated to find out who it was when they arrived on the scene."
    I hadn't realized until I read Kiwi's link last night that Chris had stopped at the police station before continuing to the fire station. From his words "Is it us, is it us" and the rest of the description of events leading up to the accident, it would appear to me that Chris may have been so excited that he got tunnel vision and probably wasn't paying attention to his surroundings in his rush to get to the station.

    Very sad, no doubt about it. But I have to agree with the jakes who are saying he doesn't qualify to be on the Memorial Wall. Honor Chris as a member of the fire department, yes. Consider him a LODD, no.

    In my humble opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    Good example, but here's the kicker. Are police explorers allowed to ride along on patrol? If it does happen out there, I'll admit to being completely shocked.
    Explorers. Maybe not. However, they DO allow interns and vocational technology students to ride along if they are in the Criminal Justice program. They do not have a vest or any way to protect themselves.
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    OK thanks for the info, Tom!
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    Im not going to say anything about the kid, considering the fact that I was not there. And my post is not about him

    But, I dont understand how anybody under 18 is not a firefighter? Around here 16 is the age for riding the apparatus (both fireside and EMS) and for doing interior operations. It has always been that way. The way my area sees it, if you are certified, then you go in.
    I dont see what the problem is.

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    Probably because the laws says anyone under 18 can't go interior.

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    Hey, I got a great idea.
    Let's put teens and even pre-teens on the bomb squads and the hazmat trucks.
    I'm sure they'd be more than willing to do it. Know why?
    BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER!
    They wouldn't understand that they have to make good decisions and know when to say "no".
    But they haven't reached that maturity level yet. You can dress them up in turnout gear and that doesn't make them a firefighter. They have to be able to think like a firefighter and they can't if they are still starry eyed from getting to go on calls. They have NOT reached a level where their brain is going to kick in if someone like Alan Baird III says "just go upstairs and PRETEND to be victims. Piece of cake." They do not understand risk vs. benefit, because if they did, then a kid on a bike would not be dead.
    If areas in this country are so hard up for membership that they have to use someone from daycare to fill their ranks, then I would suggest that you combine with someone else. If you are allowing children to "play with fire", then someone most definitely WILL get burnt.
    I have no problem with youngsters wanting to become firefighters. I applaud them, but wanting and being are ions apart.
    We argue about how sophisticated today's firefighters have to be and yet, hear we are talking about whether or not a 14 year old is a firefighter.
    Oh and 16 is too young also.
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason View Post
    Hey, I got a great idea.
    Let's put teens and even pre-teens on the bomb squads and the hazmat trucks.
    I'm sure they'd be more than willing to do it. Know why?
    BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER!
    They wouldn't understand that they have to make good decisions and know when to say "no".
    But they haven't reached that maturity level yet. You can dress them up in turnout gear and that doesn't make them a firefighter. They have to be able to think like a firefighter and they can't if they are still starry eyed from getting to go on calls. They have NOT reached a level where their brain is going to kick in if someone like Alan Baird III says "just go upstairs and PRETEND to be victims. Piece of cake." They do not understand risk vs. benefit, because if they did, then a kid on a bike would not be dead.
    If areas in this country are so hard up for membership that they have to use someone from daycare to fill their ranks, then I would suggest that you combine with someone else. If you are allowing children to "play with fire", then someone most definitely WILL get burnt.
    I have no problem with youngsters wanting to become firefighters. I applaud them, but wanting and being are ions apart.
    We argue about how sophisticated today's firefighters have to be and yet, hear we are talking about whether or not a 14 year old is a firefighter.
    Oh and 16 is too young also.
    CR

    The VOICE OF REASON speaks!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    It's not about whether kids should be firefighters, but whether Kangas was put in such a position. According to the latest I read on here, he wasn't put in the position of responder--either to the station or fireground.

    While one may take the supposed high ground and claim "kids" shouldn't be firefighters, one should also realize the concept of childhood is fluid. 18 is a random age. It's an odds game; we gamble that an 18 year old will be mature enough to handle the various privileges we give them. The vast majority of teenagers can't do it, but I'm not willing to say none of them could. Nor am I willing to put age limits lower and deal with the expense of finding the needle in the stack of needles. Not worth it. But let's not imagine it's some universal truth, or twist arguments into pretzels. I was mistaken about the nature of Kangas's response, but had he been put in the position I thought he was in, he would have warranted LODD. The bad judgement of a leader does not negate the sacrifice of his subordinates.
    Doesn't seem to be the case, here, though.

  25. #125
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    Question

    Why doesn't anyone want to discuss the actual firefighter qualifications according to the US DOJ PSOB? These are the rules being debated in the courts.

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