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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927 View Post
    Why doesn't anyone want to discuss the actual firefighter qualifications according to the US DOJ PSOB? These are the rules being debated in the courts.
    Because it wouldn't support the argument that Chris Kangas was a firefighter at the time of his death.
    It's a natural tendency to avoid arguments that you can't win.
    And then there's me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emtbff927 View Post
    Why doesn't anyone want to discuss the actual firefighter qualifications according to the US DOJ PSOB? These are the rules being debated in the courts.
    please enlighten me, what are these rules that you speak of? I don't believe I have ever seen them in writing. and if you can also provide your source, I would appreciate it.

    thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    While one may take the supposed high ground and claim "kids" shouldn't be firefighters, one should also realize the concept of childhood is fluid. 18 is a random age. It's an odds game; we gamble that an 18 year old will be mature enough to handle the various privileges we give them. The vast majority of teenagers can't do it, but I'm not willing to say none of them could. Nor am I willing to put age limits lower and deal with the expense of finding the needle in the stack of needles. Not worth it. But let's not imagine it's some universal truth, or twist arguments into pretzels. I was mistaken about the nature of Kangas's response, but had he been put in the position I thought he was in, he would have warranted LODD. The bad judgement of a leader does not negate the sacrifice of his subordinates.
    Doesn't seem to be the case, here, though.
    I know I barely trust an 18 year old cashier handling giving me change for $5 from a $2.50 bill. I know the quality of 18 y/o I'm seeing in the military have the maturity and intellect of a 13 year old.
    "Get in uniform."
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    "Because you were told to."
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    please enlighten me, what are these rules that you speak of? I don't believe I have ever seen them in writing. and if you can also provide your source, I would appreciate it.

    thanks
    Sure. As seen on page 4 of this thread:

    Firefighter means an individual who—
    (1) Is trained in—
    (i) Suppression of fire; or
    (ii) Hazardous-materials emergency response; and
    (2) Has the legal authority and ‑responsibility to engage in the suppression of fire, as—
    (i) An employee of the public agency he serves, which legally recognizes him to have such (or, at a minimum, does not deny (or has not denied) him to have such); or
    (ii) An individual otherwise included within the definition provided in the Act, at 42 U.S.C. 3796b(4).

    Suppression of fire means extinguishment, physical prevention, or containment of fire, including on-site hazard evaluation.

    Hazardous-materials emergency response means emergency response to the threatened or actual release of hazardous materials, where life, property, or the environment is at significant risk.

    42 U.S.C. 3796b(4): "firefighter" includes an individual serving as an officially recognized or designated member of a legally organized volunteer fire department

    Officially recognized or designated member of a department or agency means a member of a department or agency, or of an instrumentality, of a government described in the Act, at 42 U.S.C. 3796b(8), who is officially recognized (or officially designated) as such a member by the same.


    PS- Here's the web site with this information:
    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ogc/PSOB_Ac...ns__2006.htm
    Last edited by emtbff927; 01-31-2007 at 06:03 PM.

  5. #130
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    Well there you have it...
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Our juniors are not allowed to be in active attack operations on uncontrolled structure fires, yet they are very much involved in fire supression (and trained to do these jobs as well) by making hydrants, tanker fill/dump operations, lighting, rehab and providing gofer manpower. Sorry kids .. that's all part of supression. It may not be the tough guy inside stuff, but without all that, there is no supression.

    Juniors are not, or should not be involved in active fire supression. Comparing them to being on the bomb squad or haz-mat team is not a fair comparison. They should be in non-hazardous support roles as part of the supression operation. I have never, and I don't believe anyone here as advocated juniors are active supression firefighters, but here at least they are a part of the firefighting operation, hence they are considered firefighters.

    Here, they are full members of the organization, recognized as firefighters, the same as our support members are recognized as "support firefighters".

    To me he meets the qualifications. I know if one of our juniors or support firefighters were killed, we would definatly submit them as an LODD.

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    You really need to give it a rest. Either you’re a firefighter, or your not. There is no place on any fire ground for people that aren’t able to perform all functions. What kind of BS is this, anyhow? Great idea, let’s make half of our fire ground personnel ‘support members’, that way only half can go inside. I’d sure be glad to know that if I were to become trapped, one of your ‘support’ people could call 911, to get me help.

    Our ‘tough guys’ do all of your ‘support’ roles, because at some point on a given fire, they may be called upon to go inside. If you have members on scene who can’t perform inside, then you don’t have enough people there. What a completely foolish statement by you; you don’t really operate like this, do you? Juniors, explorers, cadets, or any other name have no business performing any of the functions you listed. Just what are they supposed to ‘gopher’ anyway? If I need a tool, I go and get it myself, I don’t tell someone else to get me anything. Who works like that anyhow? If you tried that kind of garbage here, you would get laughed off the fire ground, and probably have what ever tool you asked for shoved up somewhere you won’t like.
    I am incredibly grateful that I don’t work with you, near you, or around you.
    Last edited by jasper45; 01-31-2007 at 10:35 PM.

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    I’m not a lawyer but I did ask the opinion of several lawyers that have nothing to do with the DOJ or Kris Kangas. Section “42 U.S.C. 3796b(4): "firefighter" includes an individual serving as an officially recognized or designated member of a legally organized volunteer fire department”. One comment I heard several times is “What is the original intent of the people that drafted this rule?”. I was told that it is up to judge to ultimately decide what being an officially recognized or designated member of a legally organized volunteer fire department is.

    There is no requirement included or excluded, that I can find, that limits age or training status. It says you must be trained in the Suppression of fire. It does not say you must have passed state or national certification. Basically is says if you meet your departments training requirements and your department is an officially recognized department you meet the requirements.

    To me the department said he met their standards and was a member so the only argument can be “Was he actually on duty when he died?”. The State of Pennsylvania said he was.

    Brad

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    trained in the Suppression of fire


    UM.

    Would that mean that your department has said you have ALL the skills necessary to grab a nozzle and spray water at fire?

    UM.

    Would that mean that you can enter a burning building wearing the appropriate PPE and spray water from the said nozzle?

    UM.

    Would that mean you were an accepted member of said department that had APPROVED you to conduct these evolutions.

    GO BACK. Read my previous post and the linked thread AGAIN.

    Which part are you confused about.

    Where the Chief said they never let explorers/juniors/whatever respond to the scene?

    Where the Chief said all he did was hung around the station and helped other members get away?

    Surely not.

    HALLO, that means that it is in the public domain that even his own department did not consider him a FireFighter.

    Even his own department did not let him go to scenes.

    Now PLEASE tell if there is anything else you are confused about.

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    People are letting emotion cloud their judgement in this matter.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    There is no requirement included or excluded, that I can find, that limits age or training status.
    That's mainly because the people who wrote it took it for granted that nobody would be stupid enough to EVER seriously consider a child to be a firefighter. Letting this judgement stand only encourages the use of child labor at incidents. The PSOB needs to be rewritten to forever end any doubt from coast to coast that children are NOT firefighters and should be nowhere near a fire.
    Our juniors are not allowed to be in active attack operations on uncontrolled structure fires, yet they are very much involved in fire supression (and trained to do these jobs as well) by making hydrants, tanker fill/dump operations, lighting, rehab and providing gofer manpower. Sorry kids .. that's all part of supression. It may not be the tough guy inside stuff, but without all that, there is no supression.
    You have children working around tanker filling operations? These are some of the most dangerous areas to work around at any fire.
    I have never, and I don't believe anyone here as advocated juniors are active supression firefighters, but here at least they are a part of the firefighting operation, hence they are considered firefighters.
    Have you read the thread? Somebody was stating that they use children for interior ops all the time and see no problem with doing so. I mean, maybe I'm reading this wrong...
    But, I dont understand how anybody under 18 is not a firefighter? Around here 16 is the age for riding the apparatus (both fireside and EMS) and for doing interior operations. It has always been that way. The way my area sees it, if you are certified, then you go in.
    I dont see what the problem is.
    To me he meets the qualifications. I know if one of our juniors or support firefighters were killed, we would definatly submit them as an LODD.
    So...you are admitting that you have them working in potentially dangerous situations where they could be killed? Children? What the hell is wrong with you people??

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    Firehouse lawyer me wouldn't even spend a moment discussing the the "training" and "engaging" in fire suppression part of the statute.

    Vesting "legal authority and responsibility" to do anything in a 14 year old is certainly an unusual and very rare situation in our society. They may have permission to do something. But unless they've gone through extraordinary steps they can't enter into a contract, they can't live alone, they must attend school, it's unlawful in most places for them to have sex or get married, they're nearly always tried in a juvenile justice system if they committ a crime, if they damage someone else's property the parents will be on the hook for the costs, etc.

    16 and 17 year olds are in a transition time when most states will state to give them wider rights -- to drop out of school, get married, have sex without the words "Statutory Rape" being uttered, obtain a driver's license.

    It's not until they turn 18 that they have the rights to enter into contracts, to perform any type of work anywhere at any time, will without exception be treated as adults in a court of law, etc.

    There's no argument in today's society and laws an 18 y/o can have a "legal authority and responsibility." You can reasonably discuss if 16 and 17 y/o can, and that may vary by state (mine, Connecticut, will allow a person who is 16 to enroll in an EMT class and be certified; and it also treats all 16 y/o as adults and not juveniles in court). You're going to be very hard pressed to establish legal precedence that an unemancipated 14 year old has "legal authority and responsibility" anywhere in his life.

    That's my three cents on the matter.
    Last edited by Dalmatian190; 02-01-2007 at 01:18 PM.

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    Well, since we have people in the fire service who are willing to use children at their firegrounds, expect to see government intervention with legislation that will force fire departments to exercise common sense in the area of junior firefighters and their roles in fire departments.
    It's sad that it will come to that, but if nothing else, they will tie it to any request for federal money.
    Line 15b: Do you allow anyone under that age of 18 years old to respond as a firefighter for your fire department?
    If the answer is "yes" to this question, then our answer is "no" to your request for funding. And expect to see a visit from your state's Department of Labor. Have a nice day!

    Don't believe it? We'll see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason View Post
    Line 15b: Do you allow anyone under that age of 18 years old to respond as a firefighter for your fire department?
    If the answer is "yes" to this question, then our answer is "no" to your request for funding. And expect to see a visit from your state's Department of Labor. Have a nice day!
    respond as a firefighter? or respond on apparatus to emergency calls?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    respond as a firefighter? or respond on apparatus to emergency calls?
    There is no difference.

    A response is a response is a response, whether it be to the scene of a fire as a firefighter, to the station for coverage or on a piece of apparatus.
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    There is no difference.

    A response is a response is a response, whether it be to the scene of a fire as a firefighter, to the station for coverage or on a piece of apparatus.

    Unless, of course, you're just a 'support' firefighter. In which case, I guess you just do whatever you wish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    You have children working around tanker filling operations? These are some of the most dangerous areas to work around at any fire.
    Nozz...I NEVER thought I would see my self saying this...but you are correct...I apprehensive myself when I am working around tankers. There is not enough training that can be done, that can give you the knowledge needed when the action is for real.
    Kids are growing up to fast, and need to be kids. Fine to be a Jr./Cadet/Explorer what have you. But, don't classify them as firefighters. If thats the case then because I sometimes tell people where the best fishing is I must be a guide? (see the avatar and my signature)
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    You have children working around tanker filling operations? These are some of the most dangerous areas to work around at any fire.
    Since you asked, no, we do not have our junior firefighters filling or dumping tankers. The list of activities you took that from were possible activities for our support firefighters and juniors .. we exclude juniors from tanker ops with the exception of set-up and running the valve position at the hydrant (when we are not using a pumper to boost pressure, which is frequently).

    So...you are admitting that you have them working in potentially dangerous situations where they could be killed? Children? What the hell is wrong with you people??
    We exclude juniors from dangerous situations, however they are allowed to ride in the apparatus and they do ride in POVs to the incidents. A vehicle accident with a fatality is always possible. That would be an LODD.

    Unless, of course, you're just a 'support' firefighter. In which case, I guess you just do whatever you wish
    Support firefighters do whatever they are trained for. Amazing how this concept of "extra hands" on the fireground supporting and freeing up interior firefighters for interior operations is so difficult to understand. Maybe in Milwakee you have an unlimited supply of manpower to perform fireground tasks, but here we have a limited pool of interior folks, and it just makes sense to have non-interior folks who can't or wish not to go interior perform those support tasks. Mutual aid is limited and distant. I just don't understand the problem that you seem to have with this concept. These folks may have tried interior firefighting and have not liked it, or have gotten to old to do it, or know there limitations and never attempted it. Somehow the concept that you seem to have that we are pulling from our interior folks to have support folks is not correct. They are simply added manpower which actually reduces the fatgue factor to our interior folks, and actually frees them up to be available as a RIT team if needed.

    Why do you need a gofer. If you need a tool just go get it.
    In a rural situation, that tool may be on a truck at the end of a 400' driveway. It makes a lot more sense to have someone who is not interior go get it rather then pull that person out, and have them walk 800' to grab it. Our generally firefighters do not take tools with them off the truck as tasks are generally assigned at staging and there is no pre-determined tasks or specific company assignments. Guys arriving on the Rescue may work a handline or be assigned to water supply, guys on the engine may be tasked to opening the roof or pulling ceilings. Tools needed for the task are pulled off the closet truck that still have them.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 02-01-2007 at 09:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    [B]

    So...you are admitting that you have them working in potentially dangerous situations where they could be killed? Children? What the hell is wrong with you people??
    We exclude juniors from dangerous situations, however they are allowed to ride in the apparatus and they do ride in POVs to the incidents. A vehicle accident with a fatality is always possible. That would be an LODD.


    Why do you need a gofer. If you need a tool just go get it.

    If you are stopping at green lights, I'd say the apparatus ride is the most dangerous portion of the trip!!

    And why do you need to go get a tool? I was always taught take what you need with you, there should be no need to go back.

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    And why do you need to go get a tool? I was always taught take what you need with you, there should be no need to go back.
    Accidentally hit the submit button before I was done ... see the completed post above.

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    Support, non interior people are no more firefighters that the people in the red cross canteen. Says a lot about the state of a department when they have to rely on juniors and spectators to do the job.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Oh never mind.

    I refuse to wander in these mindless circles any more.

    You call your self a Fire Educator, and yet you can't even teach people to take tools with them for 400' to the job.

    I am out of here.
    Last edited by FlyingKiwi; 02-01-2007 at 09:38 PM.
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    So as a Fire Educator you haven't taught people to grab the most likely needed tools off the truck to take to the staging area?
    And since you don't know what your task will be until you arrive at staging and are assigned, what information do you have to make the decision about the most likely tool? Most of our firefighters respond POV. Generally outlying apparatus (engines, tankers and service) are drivers only. Trucks at the Central station do not wait for manpower. They leave with whatever paid staff(maximum of 3 daytime/1 at night) and rideout folks are at the station at the time of the call. That is why we use a staging system. Company level tasks are impractical. If command has a specific task for a truck, they will grab tools. Rescue folks will generally bring the saws off when they come to staging. If the fire is in the overhaul stage, most guys will grab a pike pole after they SCBA up. We are trained to grab the tools you need for the job. However there are always times that you may need something inside you didn't anticipate .. that's what the juniors gofer.

    In fact, one of the juniors jobs at working incidents is to set up a tool staging area with specific tools off specific apparatus. They are also responsible for assisting the support folks in lugging bottles to the rehab area and setting up exterior lighting.

    Support, non interior people are no more firefighters that the people in the red cross canteen. Says a lot about the state of a department when they have to rely on juniors and spectators to do the job.
    We don't rely on them to do the job. When they are not available, interior firefighters are tasked to do it and remain outside, or in some cases the tasks, such as exterior lighting, is not done. When they are available, we use the interior folks to .. well, fight fire. It allows us to put a 4th man on the vent team, a third man on the hoseline, etc. etc. Beleive it or not we can function without them, but if we have trained folks available to assist, why not use them. Certain tasks such as medical evaluation at rehab and bottle changers (rehab/bottle changing is a rest/medical eval time and firefighters are to rest and be evalauated while bottles are being changed by other members) have to be performed per SOP. Why tie up interior firefighters when trained support folks are available?

    I'm still waiting for someone to give me a reason why training folks to perform support activties is a bad idea.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 02-01-2007 at 09:58 PM.

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    Because ther will come a time when the support "person" will have to do something besides "support" --- hopefully the "support" person will be able to do more than wring his hands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm still waiting for someone to give me a reason why training folks to perform support activties is a bad idea.
    I guess it's not. They are just not firefighters. You do seem to have too many concerns when it comes to the fire scene. Why not just concentrate on getting the fire out and forget about "tool staging" "Exterior lighting" "bottle changers" "medical evaluation at rehab" and all the other unimportant tasks you seem absorbed with. Unless your fires are vastly different than ours, you don't need any of that other crap on any kind of a regular basis. You seem to be overcomplicating a very simple task.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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