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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    I'll be unpopular and state my opinion. So be it. I've always said I'd rather say and do what I think is right than say and do what is popular. I'm not about to change that now.

    I'm sure Chris was a great kid and his dedication to the fire service should be remembered. But let's face the incontrovertible fact that he wasn't a firefighter. No 14 year old kid is.

    Honor him however you wish but let's keep our perspective.

    It may make some people feel all warm and fuzzy to fight to be all inclusive but it isn't realistic. We reserve certain honors specifically for firefighters and forcibly including non-firefighters is a disservice to the actual firefighters who we have cause to honor. Making this exception is a precendant that we should not make. The DOJ is right.

    We should honor Chris Kangas on his own merits and not try to make him into something that he never was.

    Feel free to flame in private and keep the forum civil and orderly.
    Well to add to this if this young man doesn't deserve the honor and it would be a disservice, than any firefighter who collapses at the station having not just returned from a blaze, but from their lack of not wanting to take care of themselves (smoking, drinking, eating unhealthy and not exercising) shouldn't get the honor either because that isn't a disservice but a DISGRACE!!!!!!


  2. #162
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    Default LODD for Junior Firefighters

    I think those that say the 14 y/o junior firefighter should not recieve his name on the Fallen Firefighters Wall in Maryland are a disgrace to the fire service. Many of you who post here are in volunteer fire departments and have either junior members, support members, or even firefighters that don't even fight interior fires. I work for the Houston Fire Department and volunteer as a Captain in a 100% volunteer fire department and I started out as a junior member 10 years ago. The fire department is a brotherhood regardless of if you like the other firefighter or not. I have gone through 2 LODD deaths at my job while I have been paid and knew them, and I feel the same way for a firefighter or "junior firefighter" that I don't even know. When I hear of a LODD my heart aches for that family and the Department. Imagine if that happened in your department. How would you feel? And as for those that say he was riding his bike to the station responding to a call it would be like he was another kid on a bike getting hit. Thats sick. What if you get in a accident responding in your POV should we not give you a LODD funeral and think its like every other accident we see on the road!! That 14 y/o junior firefighter is only different in one way than other firefighters. He couldn't fight interior fire due to rules of his department. Thats not to say he didn't have the heart or didn't want to fight interior fires. He is still called a "firefighter"!! Many of you that read this can think of people in your department that are called firefighters but theres no way they should be fighting fires. But they do!! This kid sounds like he had heart, he had compassion, he had the eagerness to learn, (which most of you don't), he had the dedication to helping others, including his brothers in the fire service. Thats all the traits of a firefighter!! My point in this letter is to remind people who say that he doesn't deserve his name of the Fallen Firefighters Memorial wall, thats crap!! He does deserve it!! Just like anyone else who dedicates there time as a volunteer or paid to helping others regardless if they are interior firefighters or not. There are a thousand of jobs to do on a fire scene and only a couple count as interior fire operations. Think about if you died filling airbottle, rehab, outside RIT team, responding in an apparatus, pump operator, plug man, command, command aid, EMS, or anyother outside job you would get a LODD Funeral and Benifits. Why shouldn't he?? And those jobs are dangerous and needed. So think about the brotherhood way back to the 1800's and 1900's when kids hung out at the fire station feeding the horses, or running along side the hose wagon, helping fetch water for bucket burgades, or started fighting fires at an early age due to manpower reasons. Remember its because of them and the fallen that we remember and never forget!! If we forgot we would not know anything from the past and we would not learn from a LODD. You may be gone but your not forgotten!!

  3. #163
    Forum Member CdnFD24's Avatar
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    Let's not forget 'TeamWork'

    Is the driver/operator, who is supplying water to the interior team, not considered a firefighter because he didn't go into the structure? Teamwork.

    Anyone who calles themself a firefighter will know, that there are many, many tasks required to be done on the fire ground to get the job done. Teamwork.

    It's a big chain. The 14 year old boy who wraps the hydrant, hauls out equipment, etc is just as much of a firefighter as the one going into the burning structure to search for victims and put out the fire. Teamwork.

    You don't fight fires by responding to a structure fire by yourself, going into a burning building by yourself, and willing the fire to go out. Teamwork.

    Let's not forget Teamwork.

    How can anyone sit at their computer and pass judgment on whether this boy was a firefighter or not just because he didn't go into the burning building. NO one would be going in if other aspects of the fire scene we not in place to begin with before entry was made.

    Now...where do I sign.....
    "You see things and you ask, 'Why'? I dream of things that never were and I say, 'Why not'?

    "I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere near the place."

    "When you are kind to someone in trouble, you hope they'll remember and be kind to someone else. And it'll become like a wildfire."

  4. #164
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdnFD24 View Post
    Let's not forget 'TeamWork'
    You're absolutely right.

    Let's also not forget that some members of the 'Team' are firefighters and some are not.

    PSOB benefits and the National Firefighter Memorial are for firefighters and not the other non-firefighter members of the 'Team'.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  5. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowbreaker View Post

    Get real. If the kid's chief said he was a firefighter who are we to question it. I say Chris was a firefighter. If he had been on a truck when he died no one would question his status. I have riden my bike, as have several others, to the fire hall when the pager sounds. If we get run over I guess we won't count either. One nice thing about it, using your logic, at the end of the year we will not have many LODD's but unfortunately we will still have a lot of dead firefighters.

    Brad
    Come on people. he was 14 years old. and how can u be classified a firefighter when u dont have the classes to be classified. so u mean to tell me if i went and joined a fire dept got voted in. and died responding to the call the day after i got voted in then i would be a firefighter. i dont think so. u have to have trainging to be a firefighter. i mean im sure if u start a new job that there not gunna make u take a class or training. come on they would most deffently.

  6. #166
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    "This kid sounds like he had heart, he had compassion, he had the eagerness to learn, (which most of you don't),".HFDfyrfytr.

    You have some pair on you! I love the way you paint with such a broad brush, and decide you know most of us so well that you can make such a statement. In fact, those reasons you listed above are the reasons most of us spend time on this site.

    By all accounts Chris Kangas was a great kid and would have made a great FF someday. The fact of the matter is that by his own chiefs account in the original article, he was only "learning what it took to be a fireman", because under PA law, junior FF's are not allowed to be involved in fighting a fire. He was not called to respond, he heard a siren while at a Police Officer's house and decided to go, he didn't even know if it was for his dept.

    Now given the same situation, if I as a career FF, heard a siren and decided to chase the call without being called and were to be injured or killed, I would not be covered under workers compensation, or be considered a LODD by my dept. I am a full fledged FF, and certainly old enough, but that's a fact.

    As far as "Teamwork", Yeah, I agree somewhat. There are many jobs that need to be done, but I don't call the FD Civilian Mechanics that bring us extra bottles FF's, I wouldn't call the DPW guys that salt/sand the road when it ices FF's, or the Utility guys, etc. Every ladder, engine, rescue operator, and dc aide on my job is a certified FF. They can, and have performed interior operations at a moments notice. If you are not a certified FF, you are not allowed on the job here, nevermind a fireground.

    Start a petition for a Junior FF memorial, and put Chris Kangas' name at the top. I'll be the first to sign.

  7. #167
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    Default LODD Junior Firefighter

    Callaway,
    if you had so much heart, compassion, and dedication, and the eagerness to learn then you would take all of these traits and push for this kid to have the right to have his name on the most honored and regognized wall in the brotherhood of the fire service. I have personally known colleges of mine whos names are on that wall and would fight for anyone in the fire service who died in the LOD to have there name on that wall regardless of age and if they didn't fight "INTERIOR FIRE". Age is just a number, it doesn't mean that he wasn't a firefighter. It just meant he was hindered to do things because of his age. Take all this crap that everyone is talking bad and turn it into positive for this kid. Remember we have to come together as fireman and carry the tradition of brotherhood on.

  8. #168
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    unless he was sworn in as a FIREFIGHTER for his city, then he isnt a firefighter. But i believe he does deserve recognition.

  9. #169
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    I think those that say the 14 y/o junior firefighter should not recieve his name on the Fallen Firefighters Wall in Maryland are a disgrace to the fire service.
    And many of us think that anyone who considers children to be firefighters and uses them as such are not only a disgrace, but an embarrassment as well.

  10. #170
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    Oh boy. Here we go again.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by callaway75 View Post
    "This kid sounds like he had heart, he had compassion, he had the eagerness to learn, (which most of you don't),".HFDfyrfytr.

    You have some pair on you! I love the way you paint with such a broad brush, and decide you know most of us so well that you can make such a statement. In fact, those reasons you listed above are the reasons most of us spend time on this site.

    By all accounts Chris Kangas was a great kid and would have made a great FF someday. The fact of the matter is that by his own chiefs account in the original article, he was only "learning what it took to be a fireman", because under PA law, junior FF's are not allowed to be involved in fighting a fire. He was not called to respond, he heard a siren while at a Police Officer's house and decided to go, he didn't even know if it was for his dept.

    Now given the same situation, if I as a career FF, heard a siren and decided to chase the call without being called and were to be injured or killed, I would not be covered under workers compensation, or be considered a LODD by my dept. I am a full fledged FF, and certainly old enough, but that's a fact.

    As far as "Teamwork", Yeah, I agree somewhat. There are many jobs that need to be done, but I don't call the FD Civilian Mechanics that bring us extra bottles FF's, I wouldn't call the DPW guys that salt/sand the road when it ices FF's, or the Utility guys, etc. Every ladder, engine, rescue operator, and dc aide on my job is a certified FF. They can, and have performed interior operations at a moments notice. If you are not a certified FF, you are not allowed on the job here, nevermind a fireground.

    Start a petition for a Junior FF memorial, and put Chris Kangas' name at the top. I'll be the first to sign.
    What he said.

  12. #172
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Ditto the above.

    Start a Explorer/Cadet/Junior Firefighter Memorial and dedicate it to Chris.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFDfyrfytr View Post
    Callaway,
    if you had so much heart, compassion, and dedication, and the eagerness to learn then you would take all of these traits and push for this kid to have the right to have his name on the most honored and regognized wall in the brotherhood of the fire service. I have personally known colleges of mine whos names are on that wall and would fight for anyone in the fire service who died in the LOD to have there name on that wall regardless of age and if they didn't fight "INTERIOR FIRE". Age is just a number, it doesn't mean that he wasn't a firefighter. It just meant he was hindered to do things because of his age. Take all this crap that everyone is talking bad and turn it into positive for this kid. Remember we have to come together as fireman and carry the tradition of brotherhood on.
    This debate will undoubtedly continue to rage on with people both for and against. I formed my opinion long ago on this matter, and have yet to find anything to change it. I absolutely respect your opinion, but I do not share it. So I will agree to disagree with you and those that also do not share my viewpoint. I have never, and will never say anything bad about Chris Kangas, I simply stated my opinion. I have nothing but respect and admiration for him. I believe Chris Kangas deserves recognition for what he was, a Junior Firefighter. So let's band together and start a petition for a memorial to be erected in his honor for Junior FF's, Explorer's, etc. I say put it near the original, and as I said previously, I will be the first to sign it!!

  14. #174
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpha4 View Post
    unless he was sworn in as a FIREFIGHTER for his city, then he isnt a firefighter. But i believe he does deserve recognition.
    Chris Kangas has received alot of recognition, but that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't fit into the definition of firefighter for PSOBs or the Fallen Firefighter Memorial.
    Some of you can sling all the garbage you want about firefighters who aren't firefighters because they smoke, don't eat right and don't train, but the fact is that they DO fit the definition; like it or not.
    Would I feel the same about Chris Kangas if he was on my department? YES!
    If I don't like the rules, then I will work to change them.
    If this issue is so important to you, then start a drive to have a memorial for juniors, fire buffs and auxiliary members.
    I appreciate what Chris Kangas meant to his department and to the fire service, but this horse has been beaten enough.
    Take your energy and start a drive for another memorial.
    Children who are considered firefighters by their peers should definitely have their own memorial.
    CR
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    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  15. #175
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Does anyone from PA remember the Jr. firefighter who was killed LOD when he went through a roof? It happend in 1980 or 81 I believe. I seem to recall he was 17.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  16. #176
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    Your all bitchin and moaning "HE DESERVES RECOGNITION"
    "HES NOT A FIREFIGHTER HE DOESNT BELONG ON THE WALL"

    The fact in all honesty is the article stated he wasnt responding to a call for his department, so he wasnt even line of duty if he WAS a firefighter. He was just another person killed in a MVA.

    Does no one here realize he is being recognized plenty by all of you? A name on a wall doenst mean recognition.... I can go read graffiti of someones name, doesnt mean anything to me.

    If the wall said Chris's entire story thats another thing, but just because his name is on the wall it doenst do anything. Noone but the people who know of chris will care if his name is there, and all the people who know of chris are right here on this board.

    My point is that he is getting all the recognition he needs right here on this board by all of you. Putting his name on a wall wont prove anything or make his story more recognized.

  17. #177
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    I have to agree, that he was just another unfortunate pedestrian struck. If I'm out of town, or even in town, and go whack an out of district call, and get tboned on the way there, no one here is gonna fight to say I was a LODD. So why are we doing that for Chris. He wasn't even going to his own call, and he couldn't respond on calls anyway. How can you justify him chasing a siren that wasn't even his, when he can't respond to the alarm anyway, a LODD?

  18. #178
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    I think this has been said several times before. However, if we continue to make exceptions respect for the fire service will continue to drop. So what's next? Commercials peddling vehicle insurance with the theme "It so easy even a firefighter can do it."

    Everybody rags on FD-based EMS. However, is not there are standard of you must be at least 18 years of age before you can take the EMT certification test. I guess that is the closest thing that we may ever get to who can or who cannot act in a certain capacity.

    I believe he should not be considered a firefighter.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  19. #179
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    If we allow young members to perfom duties on the fireground then they are indeed firefighters. The minute you become a member of the department you are in fact a firefighter. Some departments require no training at all prior to joining. If he isn't considered a firefighter then neither is the guy who does nothing but fire police. Remove the age descrimination here. It's very basic, did he or could he help out on the fireground? If he helped out on the fireground then he is a firefighter, no matter what his age. FYI, I was 3184.

  20. #180
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    If we allow young members to perfom duties on the fireground then they are indeed firefighters.
    No, they're children being somewhere they shouldn't be because of fools like you. Period.

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