Thread: Scenario Help

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    Default Scenario Help

    Arrive on scene of a two story structure with smoke showing from the upper floors. You and another FF are assigned to search. Take me through the steps and or what you would be thinking.



    I have a question about search. If the fire is on the first floor but smoke is showing from the second, which floor do you check first?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    Arrive on scene of a two story structure with smoke showing from the upper floors. You and another FF are assigned to search. Take me through the steps and or what you would be thinking.



    I have a question about search. If the fire is on the first floor but smoke is showing from the second, which floor do you check first?

    Not enough info:

    What are their assigned positons according to your dept procedures?
    Where should they roughly be operating?
    What are their assinged duties other than search(are they to search for the fire, people or both)?
    Who is covering other issues, floor above, VES..etc.?
    Is the Engine in place?
    Are we the first two to arrive or are we a 2nd due or later arriving Ladder Co.?

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Not enough info:

    What are their assigned positons according to your dept procedures?
    Where should they roughly be operating?
    What are their assinged duties other than search(are they to search for the fire, people or both)?
    Who is covering other issues, floor above, VES..etc.?
    Is the Engine in place?
    Are we the first two to arrive or are we a 2nd due or later arriving Ladder Co.?

    FTM-PTB

    Searching for both fire and people in a two story structure. They are required to search the house. There is another company on scene taking care of other operations.

    (This is an oral board question that I need help on)

    Thanks for any help you could provide me with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    Searching for both fire and people in a two story structure. They are required to search the house. There is another company on scene taking care of other operations.

    (This is an oral board question that I need help on)

    Thanks for any help you could provide me with.
    • -Grab the tools we are assigned for that tour and force entry and begin search for the fire.
    • -Ensure that the fire isn't on a lower floor and the smoke just happens to be venting from above.
    • -Once we find the fire begin search for life from there and confine the fire if possible. Working towards a means of egress.
    • -If the fire is on the 1st floor search there until a primary is complete and then continue to the 2nd floor.
    • -Check for extension along the way and report any to the Chief.

    Thats the cliff notes version.

    FTM-PTB

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    Thanks a lot Firefighter Fred.

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    Default Originally Posted by BKDRAFT

    Originally Posted by BKDRAFT
    Arrive on scene of a two story structure with smoke showing from the upper floors. You and another FF are assigned to search. Take me through the steps and or what you would be thinking.



    I have a question about search. If the fire is on the first floor but smoke is showing from the second, which floor do you check first? You can gain quite a bit of info from people on scene. Sometime they will tell you my son,daughter,husband ect. is upstairs or is in his room on the first floor. Now I will take this scenario by what my Dept.would do. That is with 18 Firefighters on scene within 4 to six minutes.

    By others assigned to Ops,I take that to mean advancing lines and attacking the fire. Fire attack and search can be done simultaneously if man power permits. If I were assingned to this search my first priority would be to make a rapid assesment of the building, making a mental note of means of egress,doors,windows,type of construction,ect. Time of day is also very important.(middle of the night,middle of the day,cars in the driveway) Obviously if it is in the wee hours of the morning there is more of a chance of victims than if it were 2 in the afternoon. If there were persons on scene who gave information that there was a victim or victims on the second floor,thats where I would concentrate my resources. If not I would start on the first floor.I would do a right hand search and by feel ,I would make a mental note of the room I was in. Are we in a bedroom? If so be sure and sweep under beds and in closets. Is the bed made or unmade? If it is unmade and its the middle of the night I would be thinking someone was in here and fled to another part of the house. I would follow all the walls to the right until I came back to the enterance that I had started at. As Fred had told you you should be in contact with command and tell them your primary search of the first floor is complete. Tell commmand either first floor all clear or whatever the conditions may be that you find. Hopefully during this time another team has done a primary on the upper floors. If not always notify that you will be moving in behind the attack team to do a primary of the second floor. By now there should have been some word as to the status of the fire, hopefully knocked down or under control. When making it up to floor two you would make the same type of search as you did on the first. Hopefully this would already have been done. This whole scenario can change depending on what is encountered on the first floor. For instance if the first floor is all clear,meaning no evidence of smoke of fire by no means would i search it before the upper floors.

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    I would do a right hand search
    Just curious, but why start with a right hand search? Wouldn't the layout of the building have a play in which way you would start your search?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default Why do a right hand search?

    I was just trying to give this gentlemen a bit more insight into the things one must think about when conducting a search. So ,so many variables play into any search we do. The thought I was attemtping to convey to him was to have a pattern to search. I don't care if you do a right hand search,or a left hand search. Or simply go to the area that you are told there is a victim. Again it was a hypothetical situation and a general answer.

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    Ok. No problem with that. Just thought right hand was maybe a protocol for your department and was curious as to why.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Preconnect View Post
    Originally Posted by BKDRAFT
    Arrive on scene of a two story structure with smoke showing from the upper floors. You and another FF are assigned to search. Take me through the steps and or what you would be thinking.



    I have a question about search. If the fire is on the first floor but smoke is showing from the second, which floor do you check first? You can gain quite a bit of info from people on scene. Sometime they will tell you my son,daughter,husband ect. is upstairs or is in his room on the first floor. Now I will take this scenario by what my Dept.would do. That is with 18 Firefighters on scene within 4 to six minutes.

    By others assigned to Ops,I take that to mean advancing lines and attacking the fire. Fire attack and search can be done simultaneously if man power permits. If I were assingned to this search my first priority would be to make a rapid assesment of the building, making a mental note of means of egress,doors,windows,type of construction,ect. Time of day is also very important.(middle of the night,middle of the day,cars in the driveway) Obviously if it is in the wee hours of the morning there is more of a chance of victims than if it were 2 in the afternoon. If there were persons on scene who gave information that there was a victim or victims on the second floor,thats where I would concentrate my resources. If not I would start on the first floor.I would do a right hand search and by feel ,I would make a mental note of the room I was in. Are we in a bedroom? If so be sure and sweep under beds and in closets. Is the bed made or unmade? If it is unmade and its the middle of the night I would be thinking someone was in here and fled to another part of the house. I would follow all the walls to the right until I came back to the enterance that I had started at. As Fred had told you you should be in contact with command and tell them your primary search of the first floor is complete. Tell commmand either first floor all clear or whatever the conditions may be that you find. Hopefully during this time another team has done a primary on the upper floors. If not always notify that you will be moving in behind the attack team to do a primary of the second floor. By now there should have been some word as to the status of the fire, hopefully knocked down or under control. When making it up to floor two you would make the same type of search as you did on the first. Hopefully this would already have been done. This whole scenario can change depending on what is encountered on the first floor. For instance if the first floor is all clear,meaning no evidence of smoke of fire by no means would i search it before the upper floors.
    Why do a Right hand search when you don't even know where the fire is? Wouldn't it be more prudent to search for the fire, find it, report its locations to the Engine, confine it if possible and then begin your search for life working back from there towards a means of egress using a patern to ensure efficiency?

    FTM-PTB

    Note: I just saw your reply...my bad. Note to self, read entire thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Wouldn't it be more prudent to search for the fire, find it, report its locations to the Engine, confine it if possible and then begin your search for life working back from there towards a means of egress using a patern to ensure efficiency?
    Come on now FFFRED you know that most dept's do not send the ladder crew in to find the fire before the line is stretched. I don't disagree that this can lead to stretches being placed improperly, delaying further still getting water on the fire. But many of us are forced by poor staffing to get a line in place first before going above the fire. This being the case because starting the search before the line may end up with a long delay in the line being stretched and the searchers getting to far in or cut off. That being said, we also work in much smaller structures for the most part and the stretch is generally much easier to get right. For the most part, our first due officer makes the intial interior assessment (unprotected) and orders where the line is to be stretched. Again, I like the FDNY model much better but sadly it is not always a reality for many smaller depts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Come on now FFFRED you know that most dept's do not send the ladder crew in to find the fire before the line is stretched. I don't disagree that this can lead to stretches being placed improperly, delaying further still getting water on the fire. But many of us are forced by poor staffing to get a line in place first before going above the fire. This being the case because starting the search before the line may end up with a long delay in the line being stretched and the searchers getting to far in or cut off. That being said, we also work in much smaller structures for the most part and the stretch is generally much easier to get right. For the most part, our first due officer makes the intial interior assessment (unprotected) and orders where the line is to be stretched. Again, I like the FDNY model much better but sadly it is not always a reality for many smaller depts.
    Since when did this senario deal with any of that? He was assigned to search that is all. As for the small structures, my experince in a former dept where lines were stretched improperly before finding the fire was in one of the smallest 2 story houses one could imagine. There wasn't much too it.

    As far as our "model"...When did Find-confine-Extinquish become the sole property of the FDNY, I thought that was universal. There are many smaller depts that practice this. The senario required 2 guys...that is the same amount of guys we essentially use, the Can Man and Officer. (the Irons is searching for life immediately)

    Searching for the fire location then working away is proven in terms of efficency of operations and saving the most lives as those close to the fire will be the ones in the most danger...just the same the longer you search the farther the inside team gets from danger and is safer for them as well.

    This is basic firefighting tactics, I disagree that anything I said precludes anyone outside the FDNY from performing the very same tasks.

    FTM-PTB

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    the Can Man and Officer. (the Irons is searching for life immediately)
    Question here. Is that normal that you would split the 3 up? I had thought they would work as a team, with the can and irons searching with the officer "overseeing/monitoring conditions".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Question here. Is that normal that you would split the 3 up? I had thought they would work as a team, with the can and irons searching with the officer "overseeing/monitoring conditions".
    Depends on many factors but they are all working in the same general area floor(in a PD) or appartment (in a MD).

    In some companies in some situations (like Large luxury appartments on Park Ave for example) the officer will monitior the situation.

    However according to procedures. The can and the officer search for the fire and then begin there search for life there meanwhile the Irons man immediately begins a search for life.

    I can't speak for the entire job, but that is how it is usally done around my neighborhood.

    FTM-PTB

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    Thanks.....
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    FFFRED: You missed the levity in part of my post, after seeing the numerous responses to scenario based threads. But while Locate-Confine-Extinguish is or should be the national model the difference is who is doing the Locate. Often in depts with less staffing, the first due engine crew locates and stretches and is responsible for the search of the fire area and areas immediately adjacent to the stretch. Being short on Truck Co. personnel forces many to deploy the Truck to forcible entry, the overused roof vent (residentially speaking) and searching above the fire. Given the scenario of being assigned only search I would expect that the fire has been located or the task of locating it does not lie with the original search crew. As I noted, we send an officer or the officer and a second man to locate the fire ahead of the stretch, but I'm willing to bet few of us have enough truck companies to make it as standardized as what I called the "FDNY Model". It is difficult when short staffed depts want to run strict Eng/Truck Co.s but cannot cover the functional positions of either on the first alarm. NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN GO TO A QUINT!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    FFFRED: You missed the levity in part of my post, after seeing the numerous responses to scenario based threads. But while Locate-Confine-Extinguish is or should be the national model the difference is who is doing the Locate. Often in depts with less staffing, the first due engine crew locates and stretches and is responsible for the search of the fire area and areas immediately adjacent to the stretch. Being short on Truck Co. personnel forces many to deploy the Truck to forcible entry, the overused roof vent (residentially speaking) and searching above the fire. Given the scenario of being assigned only search I would expect that the fire has been located or the task of locating it does not lie with the original search crew. As I noted, we send an officer or the officer and a second man to locate the fire ahead of the stretch, but I'm willing to bet few of us have enough truck companies to make it as standardized as what I called the "FDNY Model". It is difficult when short staffed depts want to run strict Eng/Truck Co.s but cannot cover the functional positions of either on the first alarm. NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN GO TO A QUINT!!!!!
    Here is the senario as posted:
    Arrive on scene of a two story structure with smoke showing from the upper floors. You and another FF are assigned to search. Take me through the steps and or what you would be thinking.
    I have a question about search. If the fire is on the first floor but smoke is showing from the second, which floor do you check first?
    And follow up:
    Searching for both fire and people in a two story structure. They are required to search the house. There is another company on scene taking care of other operations.
    (This is an oral board question that I need help on)
    Thanks for any help you could provide me with.
    From what I read there is no reason to expect that the fire has been found in this senario. The only thing we know is other companies will be handling the remaining tasks. As in Stretching of handlines, Outside ventilation and Secondary search..et.c

    As I stated it has been shown that searching up to the fire then confining it and then begining ones search back from there has many positive effects which compliment this responsibilities of this pair of firemen in this example...

    They find and confine the fire and report it to the Chief and to the men stretching the handline...making the job of the Engine more efficent and thus achiving a quicker knockdown, thus a safer overall operation. Fire goes out...most of our problems solved.

    Of any victims in that house, the most threatened will be anyone near or trapped by the fire. Searching to the seat of the fire will allow prompt removal of anyone that is endager of being burned by the fire.

    Remember many people for example fall asleep in a chair bed or couch smoking and awake to only crawl a few feet towards an exit, they are attempting to make it to the main means of egress in most cases. Assuming most times you enter from the main entrance and search towards the fire...you will increase your chances of finding those who were attempting to flee the fire but failed and passed out before reaching safety as they will likely be in the hallways and near doorways leading away from the fire.

    Searching for the fire or even begining a search for life at the seat...go hand in hand with the assignment of search. I don't see how this is a bad tactic. I understand your thoughts on low staffing and similar issues...I just don't see how they are that relevant in the above senario.

    FTM-PTB

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    Search the fire area

    Search the area immediately above the fire

    Search the area adjacent to the fire

    Search everywhere else

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    Cant believe no one asked the day and time of day....like nite time, people sleeping upstairs, M-F middle of the day....possibly unnoccupied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onehotcowboy View Post
    Cant believe no one asked the day and time of day....like nite time, people sleeping upstairs, M-F middle of the day....possibly unnoccupied.
    What difference does it make...still needs to be searched...every house in my block looks almost identical but some have people in them and some don't at varrying times of the day and night.

    Are you suggesting that you wouldn't search based on the time of day?

    FTM-PTB

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    Im saying that if its in around 11:00 hrs on a Wed, your "probably" not going to have someone sleeping upstairs,so I would start downstairs, where as if it is at 04:00 hrs, the likely hood of people upstairs is very great, so....I would start at the front door if possible, and find my way upstairs to the bedrooms. And again....depending on manpower, you could do both. To many unknowns here to try to make a "perfect" arguement, pro's or con's. Good topic, I like to see the differant responses, especially from differant regions of the country. And by the way.....someone else did mention it in their post, I just missed it....sorry.

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    Thumbs up

    Cowboy that hasd already been brought up but thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Here is the senario as posted:



    As I stated it has been shown that searching up to the fire then confining it and then begining ones search back from there has many positive effects which compliment this responsibilities of this pair of firemen in this example...

    They find and confine the fire and report it to the Chief and to the men stretching the handline...making the job of the Engine more efficent and thus achiving a quicker knockdown, thus a safer overall operation. Fire goes out...most of our problems solved.


    FTM-PTB
    FFRED, Question for you....and other "city" guys

    I completely understand the principle of finding and confining the fire, but in many places where we have large open floor wood frame homes with NO built in fire protection, how resonable is it to try to pull this off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    FFRED, Question for you....and other "city" guys

    I completely understand the principle of finding and confining the fire, but in many places where we have large open floor wood frame homes with NO built in fire protection, how resonable is it to try to pull this off?
    What do you mean by open floor wood frame homes. How are these any different than a PD or large loft or 3/4 bedroom apartment in the city(comparing just one floor area of a PD to the MD)

    Do you have any pictures on line?

    No sure how this would change the facts I presented above. You find it, perhaps knock it down with the can if possible and if no way of confining it, you move on with your search for life.

    FTM-PTB

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    Sorry, crappy description...after rereading it, I apologize!

    http://www.tollbrothers.com/homesear...&comm_num=4903

    This is what I mean. These homes are large, many have energy efficient windows and once they get going, they burn fast.

    A fire in any of the second floor bedrooms can quicky render the entire second floor untenable because it burns right through the hollow core doors. In this case, there is no way to really confine the fire, and the only way you may get to the rest of the second floor bedrooms is via VES tactics (if staffing permits). If the fire is in the first floor, its a huge open area and there is no way to isolate the fire in most cases. For these places, we push in with the line and move towards the fire as we have used whatever cues are avilable to determine its most likely seat.

    I am assuming many if not most of the work you guys get is in places with more "substantial" construction. By this I mean fire doors and other means to slow the travel of fire (compartmentized).
    Last edited by MG3610; 02-09-2007 at 05:28 PM.

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