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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenNFD1219 View Post
    That, plus they have never killed a trainee before, so it must be safe.
    But that's going to leave them hanging when they DO.Then they'll have to figure out who's going to explain it to the downed FFs family and what they're going to say.
    That's one job I'll never beg off my Chief.
    For a war story,not long into my volunteer department,I was told about a training exercise run by the local city FD where they had a burn house going.There was no engine on scene and the only line was supplied by hydrant pressure.I heard that story about three different times and none of the folks I got it from had anything good to say for that practice.
    Having trainees stay til they can't take it anymore is going to lead to trouble.Here in Memphis,they're still working out a settlement for a FF who passed out during the Memphis Mile,with all his turnout gear on and no way to ring the bell,as the SEALs say for when they've had enough.

    Every training evolution I've had was simulated in some way and the only time we had actual fire involved,personnel from other departments were on scene or the state fire commission was running the show.
    I'd never follow an officer putting anyone into danger for training like described above.
    Last edited by doughesson; 01-31-2007 at 11:26 AM.


  2. #22
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    Lightbulb

    I gotta say that I don't see this as big a deal as its being portrayed here. Maybe it was and maybe not, there's not enough info. But clearly it loks lke the majority of posters will guide NFPA's decision to ban live fire training in acquired structures.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I gotta say that I don't see this as big a deal as its being portrayed here. Maybe it was and maybe not, there's not enough info. But clearly it loks lke the majority of posters will guide NFPA's decision to ban live fire training in acquired structures.

    1403 does not ban live fire training in acquired structures.. it just sets up a standard to use so nobody gets hurt or killled. Everybody goes home!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    1403 does not ban live fire training in acquired structures.. it just sets up a standard to use so nobody gets hurt or killled. Everybody goes home!
    I agree wholeheartedly, but I don't see this article as portraying anything nearly close to the Lairdsville incident. I'll try to spell out my thinking, but the WT seems to be limiting the length of my(others?) posts.

    First, the Rookie Roast: sure it looks like some false bravado and someone might stay too long due to peer pressure. But, assembling students with a readily accesible exit to endure some of the heat shows them the limitations of their gear, why it is important that you wear it properly and keep it in good condition. They also feel the ways you can sense the heat in the fully encapsualted suit given the use of hoods and such. this can be and may have been done safely.

    Let see if this one is short enogh, more to come.

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    That worked, so next point:

    The cup of flammable liquid. Sure this is clearly against 1403 and for good reason, because the accpetable level to one may differ from another. But I can attest from first hand experience with both, that I'd much rather be ina fire room fueled by damp hay with diesel on it than one couch that was torn open. Again, while I would agree that the use of ignitable fuels is not the way to go, to call these guys crazy or reckless without knowing the amount, the use or whether it was a flammable or combustible liquid is a little premature. Again, no I don't advocate the use but lets be realistic before we toss our brothers to the wolves.

    Another one coming.

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    Pretty much my last point:

    Using live victims: With the advent of tons of lifelike mannequins this should not be necessary, but it can be done safely (though not NFPA compliant)
    Many trainers did this for years. Live "vicitm" in full PPE and SCBA coverd by the crew that backs up the igniter and with a readily accesible exit that does not interfere with the attack advance.

    With the amount of posters crying foul hear it is no wonder we're losing the ability to use acquired structures all over the country. There is a difference between reckless and quality live fire training. We will have lost a huge asset when all live fire training is in concrete buildings, and the fire service and our future brothers will pay for it with a lack of real world knowledge ahead of time. Few of us have enough fires to put all newbies with a seaoned vet until they've gain a basic knowledge.

    So be careful what you wish for. We will have become so safe that we are more dangerous.

  7. #27
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    I think there are also unforeseen side affects from the "rookie roast" type of fires. Both of these are from past experience with departments and burns in our area.

    1. If you honestly stay in as long as possible, your gear will inevitably begin to fail. The reflective striping will usually go first, followed by the vapour barrier, and then the shell will begin to break down. You will usually have lost your visor, and most of your helmet by this point too. Some of the damage is obvious, but much of it is not.

    Unless you properly examine your gear after every burn, how do you know that it is still safe for front line use afterwards.

    2. And on the same note, do the taxpayers know that you are wasting thousands of dollars worth of gear (or more) every year on a "biggest balls" competition?

    We stopped doing these kinds of burns over ten years ago, after both receiving the proper education and training on the topic, and ruining thousands of dollars worth of new gear on some of these exact scenarios.

    Good controlled training is a useful way to build firefighter confidence and experience. ****ing away money, and exposing inexperienced members to unecessary risk is not.

    And I personally don't like using live victims in even controlled smoke/hay fires. Every member on the inside should be part of a team. Stage smoke works perfectly well when teaching SAR and victim removal, and poses no risk to the "Victim" in the event of an SCBA failure.


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    I agree the burn until you break is not smart, but there is validity in having students stop and feel the increase in heat and note the points on their body where they feel the hot spots (ie shoulders and places where the gear pulls tight. This also exposes any spots where a hood may have been haphazardly strected over the facepeice. Again, done with proper instruction and low student ratios and a decent egress path. Staying in until your Bourkes are folded down is pure "Wannabe BS"! But you can lose valuable lessons by making blanket safety rules that force common sense on everyone. The Rookie Roast may be no more than a poorly chosen term for showing the students about watching how fire develops and spreads in a room while also experiencing heat that allows them to better understand their PPE.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    This also exposes any spots where a hood may have been haphazardly strected over the facepeice. .

    Isn't this suppost to be accomplished by a "buddy-check"??????
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

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  10. #30
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    RFDACM02...

    I don't hear anyone here advocating ending acquired structure live fire training. As for NFPA 1403 the tech school I have been teaching for has folllowed this standard for years and we still get good fires, great training and no one hurt. Seems like a win win to me.

    Flammable liquids: Totally unnecessary IF you prepare adequately. We haven't used flammable liqquids since the standard changed. We use hay, newspaper, cardboard, and pallets and honestly we have great fires. It takes a litttle more time to build good fire sets but I think it is well worth the safety of no flammable liquids.

    Live victims: Why? There simply is no need to place someone in that position. The mannequins of today are realistic enough and finally heavy enough that they cause us the same grief as a live victim does.

    Rookie roast: This just seems to me to be the way to hurt or kill someone. Look when I take people in we have each crew member be checked over by his partner to make sure all the PPE is being worn properly, so, no bare skin. I do have students put their hands up over them as we crawl in to check for heat buildup and occasionally we may watch the fire grow but I am always checking to make sure everyone is okay.

    FyredUp

  11. #31
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    I am among the first group of State Certified Live Fire Instructors in my dept.

    We strictly follow NFPA 1403, and exceed the standard in several areas.

    Here is our SOP on live fire training at our Class-A fixed burn facility.




    NUMBER

    607.00 SUBJECT

    Live Fire Training
    EFF. DATE

    01/23/07


    TOPIC

    Fixed Burn Facility - Live Fire Training Evolutions AUTHORIZATION

    ___________________________
    Cindy Dick

    PURPOSE: To provide a process for conducting safe and effective live fire training evolutions in a fixed burn facility.

    SET UP PROCEDURE: An inspection of the entire fixed burn facility shall be conducted to ensure that no unauthorized personnel or materials are in the structure immediately prior to ignition of the fire load.

    Orange marker cones will be placed in a ten-foot radius around the fixed burn facility identifying the hot zone during a live fire training evolution. No personnel shall enter the hot zone during a live fire training evolution without proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) NFPA 1971, Standard on Protective Ensemble for Structural Firefighting.

    PARTICIPANT REQUIREMENTS: Prior to being permitted to participate in live fire training evolutions, the student must have received training that meets the job performance requirements for Firefighter I in NFPA 1001, Standard for Firefighter Professional Qualifications.

    Participants not employed with the TFD will not be permitted to participate in any live fire training evolution without presenting written evidence of having successfully completed the prescribed minimum training levels specified in NFPA 1001, and the consent of the TFD Fire Chief.

    Each participant shall be equipped with full PPE suitable for structure fires, SCBA and PASS device meeting criteria identified by NFPA 1971, Standard on Protective for Structural Fire Fighting, Ensemble NFPA 1981, Standard on Open-Circuit Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus for the Fire Service and NFPA 1982, Standard on Personal Alert Safety Systems (PASS).

    All participants shall be inspected by the Safety Officer prior to entry into a live fire training evolution. This is to ensure that the protective clothing, SCBA and PASS are being worn properly and are in serviceable condition. Prior to the ignition of any fire, instructors shall do a second check of their student’s protective equipment.

    Pre-entry vitals are required from each participant involved with the training and are to be recorded on the TFD Live Fire Training Medical Form. This form shall accompany all other forms documenting the live fire evolution and filed at the Tallahassee Fire Department Training Division. NFPA 471 Standard for Recommended Practice Responding to Hazardous Materials Incidents. States that any diastolic blood pressure that exceeds 105 and / or a core temperature above 100.5 F degrees excludes a participant from hazardous training activity. Post- Evolution vitals are also required at the completion of the training. If a participant is not employed with TFD they are required to complete a TFD Agreement and Release of Liability Form prior to ANY training event.

    WATER SUPPLY: Water will be supplied by at least one class “A” pumping apparatus. A five-inch supply line connected to a charged hydrant shall supply the pumper. Criteria for NFPA 1142 Standard for Water Supplied for Suburban and Rural Firefighting shall be met. It is mandatory that pump operations are assigned and maintained during all live fire evolutions in their entirety. A minimum of two charged 1 ¾ inch hose lines of adequate length for the evolution shall be deployed and made ready. Each hose line shall be capable of delivering a minimum of 95 GPM. The suppression team upon initial attack shall use the first line. The second line shall be committed to a back up position. In addition to the above mentioned hose lines, The RIT team shall charge and make ready one 1 ¾ inch hose line for their possible entry.

    PROPS: Vehicle(s) used as props for Live Fire Training Evolutions in the fixed burn facility shall be inspected and stripped of any combustibles that are not class “A” materials. Class “A” materials maybe placed in the vehicle(s) to stimulate vehicle fire conditions but shall not exceed a four wood pallet fire load during a single burn.

    Manikins may be used in a live fire evolution. The manikins shall not be dressed in bunker gear as not to be confused with actual participants. Participants shall be briefed on simulated victim props prior to entry.

    At no time shall a participant be used as a victim in a live fire evolution.

    PRE-BURN PROCEDURES: Prior to conducting a Live Fire Training Evolution a pre-burn briefing shall be conducted for all participants involved. The pre-burn procedures section of the TFD Live Fire Training Check List shall be checked off at this time. Assignments shall be given by the IIC (Instructor-In-Charge). The following is a list of assignments to be filled by a LFI (Live Fire Instructor): Safety Officer, Fire Attack Instructor, Search Team Instructor, Ignition Officer, RIT (Rapid Intervention Team) Instructor and a Temperature Monitor Officer. In addition to these Instructor Positions, a Pump Operator(s), an assistant to the Ignition Officer and an EMS Officer/Rehab position must be established. These assignments shall be recorded on the TFD Live Fire Training Assignments Sheet.

    All interior LFI ‘s shall donn a flashing indicator light, signifying their roll in the operation.

    Students involved in the evolution shall be formed into three crews not to exceed a instructor/student ratio of 5:1. The crews will be accompanied by a LFI and assigned to one of the following teams: Fire Attack, Search, or RIT. These assignments shall be recorded on the TFD Assignments Sheet. The developing scenario shall be discussed including but not limited to possible simulated victims (manikins) or special obstacles.

    MAYDAY: Procedures shall be reviewed in compliance with TFD Standard Operating Procedures (SOP). SOP#605.00

    EMERGENCY EVACUATION: Procedures shall be reviewed in compliance with TFD/SOP#909.00

    INCIDENT COMMAND SYSTEM (ICS): shall be in operation during the entire live fire training evolution.

    POST-BURN PROCEDURES: Immediately following the live fire training evolution a post-burn briefing shall be conducted for all participants involved. The post- burn procedures section of the TFD Live Fire Training Check List shall be checked off at this time.

    FIRE LOAD: Defined as the “Physical Make-up” and quantity of class “A” material used in a Live Fire Evolution. During a Live fire training evolution NO MORE THAN TWO fire racks shall be ignited. The fire racks shall be loaded with NO MORE THAN FOUR wood pallets and 1 bale of hay each. Smoke barrels may be loaded with dampened hay and ignited to produce a desired smoke - rich environment but must not be used as a fire load device.

    IGNITION TORCH: The torch will be used by the Ignition Officer and removed immediately upon ignition of the racks. The Ignition Officer shall communicate to the IC that “The torch is out of the structure”.

    TRAINING TEMPERATURE: 1,100 degrees F is the safe/optimum training temperature to achieve for a live fire evolution although temperatures may fluctuate slightly.

    VENTILATION TEMPERATURE: At 1,250 degrees F ventilation procedures should be considered by the IIC. Utilization of pre-staged positive pressure fans at doorways and opening window shutters of the fire rooms.

    EMERGENCY EVACUATION TEMPERATURE: In the event that temperatures increase to 1,400 degrees F, emergency evacuation procedures should be activated in compliance with TFD SOP #909.00, Emergency Evacuation Policy.

    TEMPERATURE MONITORING: Prior to the ignition of the fire load, the Temperature Monitor Officer (TMO) will be in place in the Fixed Burn Facility Monitoring Room. He or she shall maintain visual contact with the temperature monitors until the completion of the live fire evolution. The (TMO) will record pertinent information prompted on the “TFD Temperature Monitoring Work Sheet”. The TMO must maintain radio communications with the IC and the IIC at all times during the evolution. If the temperature monitors indicate temperatures exceeding the prior set safe/optimum training temperature standard in any room, the TMO shall report the documented information immediately. The IIC will make the determination on the actions to be implemented.

    In addition to the fixed temperature monitoring devices throughout the structure, a handheld temperature-monitoring device should be properly utilized and protected by one LFI making entry during each evolution. Temperatures taken by this device should be recorded on the TFD Temperature Monitoring Work Sheet. This will provide a comparison of ceiling temperatures and working level temperatures throughout the structure.

    At this time NFPA does not set a standard for safe operating temperatures and does not require any temperature monitoring devices. It is the intention of the Tallahassee Fire Department to use and maintain these devices for the purpose of recording and documenting temperatures during a live fire evolution to ensure a safe and effective operating environment for all participants.

    COMMUNICATIONS: Will be conducted on a predetermined radio channel using a TFD portable radio. A full radio check shall be conducted prior to each Live Fire Evolution. Tallahassee Dispatch will be notified and a Training Incident Number shall be opened.




    DOCUMENTATION: The following records and reports shall be completed, filed and maintained on all live fire training evolutions:

    1. TFD Live Fire Training Check List
    2. TFD Live Fire Training Instructor/Crew Assignment Sheet
    3. TFD Live Fire Training Medical Form
    4. TFD Temperature Monitoring Work sheet
    5. TFD Agreement and Release of Liability (If Applicable)
    6. TFD Training Facility/Drill Field Report
    7. TFD First Report of Injury or Illness Form (If Applicable)
    8. TFD Report of Stolen, Lost, Missing or Damaged Property Form (If Applicable)

    A copy of all records and reports will be dated and assigned an incident number and will remain on file at the Tallahassee Fire Department Training Division.


















    Please note that NO LIVE PERSON SHALL EVER assume the role of a victim!!!!! Nor will the "dummy" victim EVER be placed in bunker gear!!!!!
    If there is a body wearing bunker gear on the floor, it is a real person, and therefore it is immediately known to be an actual emergency!

    Flammable liquids are absolutely forbidden. They are not needed, and add nothing to the training, except the potential for disaster.

    We do everything we possibly can to prevent injuries, while still making the scenarios as true-to-life as possible.
    We are training firefighters, not testing the extreme limits of their endurance and their pain thresholds.




    Kevin
    Fire Lieutenant/E.M.T.
    IAFF Local 2339
    K of C 4th Degree
    "LEATHER FOREVER"
    Member I.A.C.O.J.
    http://www.tfdfire.com/
    "Fir na tine"

  12. #32
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    Again, my point is that this scenario may not be as bad as everyone seems to make it out to be. Sure there should be no reason to use flammable liquids any longer, but how can one determine from this story the level of culpability? Same with live victims: no longer a necessity but it could be donely safely, and maybe it was. The Rookie Roast could be a poor name for some of the same practices most of us use to have students learn fire behavior and PPE encapsulation.

    THEFIRENUT: yeah, the Buddy check is a good thing, in training. How about teaching students that they cannot count on anyone else to check them just in case at 3 in the morning their buddy doesn't check their hood? We (most of us) do not train like we fight anymore. I think the buddy system is great when it happens, but to often staffing does not allow perfect teams of two to operate at all times.

    As for acquired structure burns, they are being taken away every day and if we keep laying down whenever some one throws out a safety arguement sooner or later we'll train firefighters over the web and hope they can take the heat later.

  13. #33
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    I work part time at the Massachusetts Fire Academy in the support services division.

    The burn days at te Academy are done in a concrete buidling built into a small hillside that looks like a 2.5 story residential home on one side, the other side looks like a 4 story apartments over commercial structure.

    The walls and ceilings of all of the rooms and corridors are covered in hgh temperature fire resistive tiles.

    Fuels used in burns are straw and palllets on metal frames. On burn days, supoort personnel drive the trucks and set up the fires.

    Students get to see their first fire during the nature of fire demonstration. Instructors perform the firefighitng ops for that. The recruits also learn the reason why you do not put a hose line into a ventilation hole, ie,. the reverse vent evolution.

    They get to put their first "wet stuff on red stuff" when they are taught indirect fire attack.They also get to put the wet stuff on red stuff during hose evolution 2. These fires are small, used to build confidence and to teach prioper technique. They have to overhaul the area and power vent after each evolution.

    Strutural burns are done in 4 phases. Phase 1 is room and contents with minor extension, phases 2 through 4 build on that. Phase 3 and 4 fires, the students respond from the firehouse, fires are on mutiple floors in multiple rooms.

    Other burn training is done using class A materials and propane fired props.

    Live fire training can be done with realistic conditons and done safely if the 1403 guidelines are followed.

    As far as the statement about losing the opportunity to do fire training in acquired structures... a lot of that has to do with timeframes, EPA regulations, etc.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 02-03-2007 at 09:10 AM.
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    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  14. #34
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    Please let me reitnerate that I do beleive in utilizing 1403. We do it anytime we burn and do not do some of the things being discussed here. But that does not mean no one will get hurt for certain, nor does it mean that you cannot conduct safe training that does not meet 1403.

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    nor does it mean that you cannot conduct safe training that does not meet 1403.

    How would one conduct safe, live fire training in an acquired structure that doesn't meet the provisions of 1403? Which items can be left out of the training plan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Please let me reitnerate that I do beleive in utilizing 1403. We do it anytime we burn and do not do some of the things being discussed here. But that does not mean no one will get hurt for certain, nor does it mean that you cannot conduct safe training that does not meet 1403.
    There's a difference between being safe and getting lucky.

  17. #37
    Forum Member DonSmithnotTMD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Our gear consisted of what the Navy calls "B" gear. It has NO thermal protection, and almost no water repellancy. We wore no helmets, and over hands and heads, cotton gloves that go to the elbows, and flash hoods. Our "BAs" were CHEMOX units.
    We have a Navy vet in our house and she says thats what they still use.

    I do have a flammable liquid comment. we used some in a recent burn and I didn't get in on that side, apparently it was background to where we were supposed to enter. It made me plan, though. there was fire on the ceiling and patches on the floor. It made me think about how to actually enter, rather than just charging in the door and hitting the seat.
    Last edited by DonSmithnotTMD; 02-03-2007 at 04:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    nor does it mean that you cannot conduct safe training that does not meet 1403.

    How would one conduct safe, live fire training in an acquired structure that doesn't meet the provisions of 1403? Which items can be left out of the training plan?
    So because its in NFPA 1403 it's safe? Experienced trainers cannot used live victims safely? Again while I don't see any reason to, the point is that it can be done. You can with proper instructors and numbers have two separate fires given proper precautions. You can conduct a safe training burn and not be 1403 compliant. It obviously is not advisable from a liability standpoint, but that is not the point here.

    Conversly, you can meet 1403 and still be dangerous by using morons who have no business teaching, I'm sure many of you have seen it as well as I. We as a Fire Service cannot afford to keep allowing NFPA to become the gospel for all that we do, unless we start getting more involved. This goes well beyond 1403 but that's another thread altogether.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-03-2007 at 10:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    There's a difference between being safe and getting lucky.
    Yeah, and NIMS is the only way anyone can safely command an emergency incident too right?

    And if your apparatus does not meet NFPA 1901 its not safe to use?

    And Ladies and Gentleman my personal favorite: You don't go to fires with less staff than NFPA 1710 or 1720 says do you?

    How can anything else be done, NFPA dictates what is safe and what is not, right? Or do we pick and choose. how easy it is to cast stones at this dept. in FL for not meeting the letter of 1403 when 99% of us can't even come close to meeting minumum staffing standards. But I'm sure that isn't a safety issue!?!?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by firenresq77 View Post

    That story remined me of the youtube video I saw once of a firefighter on a boat who was igniting it for training purposes....they had a pile of wood pallets on the boat and he was dowsing it in a flammable liquid. He was in full PPE thankfully; as it expolded in his face when it put a flame to the pile of pallets...not a little explosion either. His only escape was to throw himself in the lake.

    As for training fires...we have enough unknowns to worry about in a real fire. Why do we have to put each other at risk unnecessarily during training?
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