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    They used to train in two old school busses put together with all the windows tinned up tight, seats still inside and put 10 to 15 pallets inside and you could only use a booster hose on 12 gpm. If you could not handle the heat they would not let you be on the fire department. I was trained to this set of standards when I came to work for them. I knew it was not right but enjoyed getting paid to fight fire.


    (Post edited with a sincere apology to 25Snozzle).
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 02-10-2007 at 02:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    They used to train in two old school busses put together with all the windows tinned up tight, seats still inside and put 10 to 15 pallets inside and you could only use a booster hose on 12 gpm. If you could not handle the heat they would not let you be on the fire department. I was trained to this set of standards when I came to work for them. I knew it was not right but enjoyed getting paid to fight fire.


    So, essentially you're not only a fool, you are a whore, too. What else would you do that was wrong in order to "get paid to fight fire"?

    The incident that I spoke about before occurred in a school bus. I arrived on scene while it was still smoldering. Trust me, 10-15 pallets in the school bus is more than enough fuel to create flashover conditions. A 12 gpm booster line is a glorified garden hose and has no place in today's fire service.

    But you proved you had a bid d+9k and you are a man. Are you proud of yourself? You really showed all of us what kind of "man" you really are.
    Oh come on. The guy clearly stated that he thought this was not right and that it was just how he was trained and that he left the department because he disagreed with these practices. And now you want to bust his balls because of something he had no control over??? In your rabid devotion to safety you are now turning a blind eye to people who agree with you? And as for rfdacm02 - he's agreeing with you too! All he's saying is that just because you conform to the letter of the law does not insure a safe training session. Are you totally discounting the fact that a dept. can comply with 1403 and still not be safe due to inexperienced personnel and that a dept. may not meet every single point in 1403 and yet could still be conducting safe training? Thats just naive and small minded. I agree with arguing your point, but this is taking it beyond the pale.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 02-10-2007 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Added a much needed "e"
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Oh come on. The guy clearly stated that he thought this was not right and that it was just how he was trained and that he left the department because he disagreed with these practices. And now you want to bust his balls because of something he had no control over??? In your rabid devotion to safety you are now turning a blind eye to people who agree with you? And as for rfdacm02 - he's agreeing with you too! All he's saying is that just because you conform to the letter of the law does not insure a safe training session. Are you totally discounting the fact that a dept. can comply with 1403 and still not be safe due to inexperienced personnel and that a dept. may not meet very single point in 1403 and yet could still be conducting safe training? Thats just naive and small minded. I agree with arguing your point, but this is taking it beyond the pale.
    Based on this post, I reread the post I was commenting on. I completely misread it. I was wrong. I apologize to 25Snozzle and I will edit the post.

    Thank you for bringing this gross error to my attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949 View Post
    This is precisely the reason why we have 1403. To save the ignorant and the stupid from killing themselves...And, in turn, from killing us!
    Kevin
    Don't take this the wrong way. I was talking to an equipment manufacturer one time and I made the comment about how they had idioy proofed the piece of equipment. He laughed and told me they stopped trying to idiot proof their stuff. Everytime they thought they had it idiot proofed someone went and invented a better idiot.

    Which then begs the question: What makes you so sure that having a regulation will save us from the ignorant and stupid. After all, if they are ignorant and stupid will they know how to read the regulation and use it. Then again, they are ignorant to it's very existance.

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    RFDACM02:
    You cannot possibly discuss safety in live fire training without discussing Lairdsville or Osceola County for that matter. There are those that rail on the NIOSH report, but the local jurisdictions have no interest in providing us with details of their investigations, so we are stuck with reviewing NIOSH fatality reports.
    I did alot of research on Lairdsville and in another venue, I would be more than glad to share it with you. I tried to copy and paste it here, but with all of the problems this website is having, it wouldn't let me do it.
    But here is a fresh training death right from the front page. Read it and come back for more discussion.
    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=39&id=53403
    CR
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    Lightbulb

    ChiefReason: I agree that Lairdsville is an important lesson that many can learn from. My issue with is with the name of this thread and the little information provided. I cannot accept that enyone who does not follow 1403 to the letter is automatically unsafe or will I accept that all 1403 complaint sessions are automatically safe. I think it was unfair, given the information provided, to charactize the FL FD in the article as on the same level as the group from the Lairdsville incident.

    Given the tragedy that has just occured in Baltimore I suggest we let this topic rest while our thoughts and prayers are with FF Wilson's family and brother and sister firefighters.

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    Photo Spurs Investigation into Florida Department's Training Burns

    Fla. Department's Training Burns Investigated
    A Firehouse.com forum discussion scrutinzed department training practices.

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...1&sectionId=46
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
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    Rest in Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarey View Post
    Photo Spurs Investigation into Florida Department's Training Burns

    Fla. Department's Training Burns Investigated
    A Firehouse.com forum discussion scrutinzed department training practices.

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...1&sectionId=46
    And this is EXACTLY the reason why FH.com should consider closing these forums to other segments of society. "Firehouse.com" should speak to the firefighting segment and not wannabees, buffs, imposters or singles looking to hook up.
    This is serious business and if seeing our discussion about the safety of a training exercise piqued the curiousity of a state fire marshal's office, then good.
    If you don't want agencies involved in your business, then maybe you shouldn't come here to brag.
    And after the whole Alex Yates fiasco, maybe members of the forums should have to provide proof that they were, are or in the process of becoming a firefighter in order to participate in the discussions. Everybody can read them, but only members can post. It has been mentioned before. Maybe the time has come.
    CR
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    Thumbs down Please!!!

    BLAH BLAH. Where any of you there? Have any of you ever dealt with the press? What you say is not what they print. Quit playing armchair quarterback unless you were there. Ever see the cover of Firehouse or Fire Engineering magazines? I see a HUNDREDS of UNSAFE things in these pictures. This is part of the problem in society everyone has a comment, but they were not there, they did not participate, you are making comments about the department based solely on what the PRESS chose to print and publish. Why is this department unprofessional? As one of you posted. Because of the story, the PRESS CHOSE to publish. YOU ARE UNPROFESSIOANL AND IGNORANT TO MAKE THOSE COMMENTS! Because you were there right? GET A LIFE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizan1 View Post
    BLAH BLAH. Where any of you there? Have any of you ever dealt with the press? What you say is not what they print. Quit playing armchair quarterback unless you were there. Ever see the cover of Firehouse or Fire Engineering magazines? I see a HUNDREDS of UNSAFE things in these pictures. This is part of the problem in society everyone has a comment, but they were not there, they did not participate, you are making comments about the department based solely on what the PRESS chose to print and publish. Why is this department unprofessional? As one of you posted. Because of the story, the PRESS CHOSE to publish. YOU ARE UNPROFESSIOANL AND IGNORANT TO MAKE THOSE COMMENTS! Because you were there right? GET A LIFE!
    Hold on there, cowboy.l

    What the hell are you talking about? Lairdsville? Florida? Something else?

    Let us know so we can be factual when we tell you you're wrong.

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    CR...I think that for a reporter to use an open forum whos members really cant prove thier credibility, is a poor mark of a journalist. And for anyone to take an article seriously based on what was written on an internet blog....well thats just a wash women to me.
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    I am talking about the High Springs Florida story. How can anyone sit here and throw stone at this department if they do not have ALL the facts. You people are just as bad as the public sit around and talk smack and from what I can tell, not one of the people who posted on this topic where there, yet they make comments like that just shows how unprofessional the department is, etc., etc.: mad:
    If you look at my posts, I do not post often, but I read alot and this bantering chaps my *** especially when fellow brothers do not have the facts, but yet they like to attack other departments based on a stupid reporters and editors picking and chosing of what to print!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizan1 View Post
    BLAH BLAH. Where any of you there? Have any of you ever dealt with the press? What you say is not what they print. Quit playing armchair quarterback unless you were there. Ever see the cover of Firehouse or Fire Engineering magazines? I see a HUNDREDS of UNSAFE things in these pictures. This is part of the problem in society everyone has a comment, but they were not there, they did not participate, you are making comments about the department based solely on what the PRESS chose to print and publish. Why is this department unprofessional? As one of you posted. Because of the story, the PRESS CHOSE to publish. YOU ARE UNPROFESSIOANL AND IGNORANT TO MAKE THOSE COMMENTS! Because you were there right? GET A LIFE!
    Excuse me while I scrape you off the bottom of my shoe.
    Yes; I have been there! Not THERE, but there. I am in front of the press frequently; often quoted. They print what I say. I'm not playing armchair quarterback. But since I have been there, I can offer my perspective and opinion. Yes; I subscribe to both. You just look at the covers; I read the articles. In this society that is free, we have the right to comment. Commenting on what HE said to the press. Read the damned article. It's very enlightening. I never said anywhere that the department was unprofessional. Unsafe is not unprofessional. There's a difference. Look it up. You don't know me. I am neither unprofessional or ignorant.
    And I have a fabulous life.
    Tell you what; go to the Illinois threads. We'll have a chat there.
    Unless, of course, you weren't talking to me.
    CR
    Last edited by ChiefReason; 02-15-2007 at 02:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    CR...I think that for a reporter to use an open forum whos members really cant prove thier credibility, is a poor mark of a journalist. And for anyone to take an article seriously based on what was written on an internet blog....well thats just a wash women to me.
    Vinnie:
    Where would we be without journalism? Newspapers? Newsmagazine shows?
    They provide us with issues to discuss. That's what we are doing. If that is not what we should be doing, then Firehouse.com shouldn't post the articles, I guess. What are we suppose to do; read them and then just go "hmmmmmm; that was certainly interesting"?
    No; articles are here so that there can be pro and cons, agree and disagree, truth and lies, ying and yang.
    NO ONE will convince me that they read the articles here and don't form an opinion. You may not post it here, but you have already formed an opinion.
    Sorry if I have the nuts to want to discuss it. I am what I am. And like it or not, we have to discuss these training "issues" so we aren't reading someone's obituary and telling ourselves "we have seen this before".
    No thanks.
    CR
    Last edited by ChiefReason; 02-15-2007 at 02:23 PM.
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    If you wrote it I am talking to you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason View Post
    Vinnie:
    Where would we be without journalism? Newspapers? Newsmagazine shows?
    They provide us with issues to discuss. That's what we are doing. If that is not what we should be doing, then Firehouse.com shouldn't post the articles, I guess. What are we suppose to do; read them and then just go "hm.............................cuss these training "issues" so we aren't reading someone's obituary and telling ourselves "we have seen this before".
    No thanks.
    CR
    Easy there CR....I'm not picking a fight with you and I am not saying that Journalism is Evil and needs to go. I was just saying that for a Journalist to use an Internet blog for Information where there is no credibility, that a poor journalist. I read over the post in question....there were maybe 2 or 3 quality posts that were quality.

    Here's my point, I was contacted by a TIMES reporter about 2 years ago, the guy has been hounding me since. It was inreference to a post I made on a Military site with regards to a contrivercial weapons system that I did some testing with. The item is a HOT topic in the Military and Washington. The guy read all 100 pages on the topic....and contacted the posters for interviews. But Alias....no interviews.....no article. That to me is a good Journalist. He is checking his facts before he puts anything on paper and signs his name to it. But that's just my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason View Post
    Vinnie:
    Where would we be without journalism? Newspapers? Newsmagazine shows?
    They provide us with issues to discuss. That's what we are doing. If that is not what we should be doing, then Firehouse.com shouldn't post the articles, I guess. What are we suppose to do; read them and then just go "hmmmmmm; that was certainly interesting"?
    No; articles are here so that there can be pro and cons, agree and disagree, truth and lies, ying and yang.
    NO ONE will convince me that they read the articles here and don't form an opinion. You may not post it here, but you have already formed an opinion.
    Sorry if I have the nuts to want to discuss it. I am what I am. And like it or not, we have to discuss these training "issues" so we aren't reading someone's obituary and telling ourselves "we have seen this before".
    No thanks.
    CR

    I think you probably missed Vinnie's point. And I agree with him.

    If a journalist gets an idea for a story from this forum, does his research and wrtites a factual sourced article, that is one thing. If a journalist reads the forum, and then writes his article based on the posts, he not only is a poor journalist, he is a lazy journalist.

    When the last Florida training fiasco occurred, I was contacted by a reporter from the Orlando Sentinel based on my posts here. He called me, got permission form me and my agency to interview me, did a very thorough interview, followed up on some of the info I gave him and wrote an outstanding piece. That is the right way to do it.

    At least I think that's what Vinnie meant (apologizing in advance for speaking for you, Vinnie).

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    Default Reply To Chicago FF

    So, essentially you're not only a fool, you are a whore, too. What else would you do that was wrong in order to "get paid to fight fire"?

    The incident that I spoke about before occurred in a school bus. I arrived on scene while it was still smoldering. Trust me, 10-15 pallets in the school bus is more than enough fuel to create flashover conditions. A 12 gpm booster line is a glorified garden hose and has no place in today's fire service.

    But you proved you had a bid d+9k and you are a man. Are you proud of yourself? You really showed all of us what kind of "man" you really are.




    I appriciate saying you reread and understand my point, I may have stated it wrong to give you the initial impression you recieved.

    I was only 18 years old when I joined the department in question. I thought they knew it all, I had no reason to doubt them.I thought being a firefighter was the best job ever and was proud to have the oppertunity. It was never a matter of what I would due to get paid. However I spent the next 10 years furthering my education to try to become the best in my profession and to try to educate other firefighters to the modern ways of firefighting. Then I finally got tired of beating my head against the wall, because nobody was listening and decided to move on to a department that is in the modern era. The days of teaching those methods are long gone. Frankly I dont understand how they ever got away with this anyhow. But I still think there are more departments in this country that teach those methods then follow NFPA. The standards have gotten to a point that a small department just can not train thier people. They can not provide the minimal facilities due to funding and other issues. Their has to be a medium somehow for departments no matter how large or small to provide the same quality level of training. So for all the people out there smarter then me. How do we get there? How do we change these old ways of thinking before others get hurt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizan1 View Post
    I am talking about the High Springs Florida story. How can anyone sit here and throw stone at this department if they do not have ALL the facts. You people are just as bad as the public sit around and talk smack and from what I can tell, not one of the people who posted on this topic where there, yet they make comments like that just shows how unprofessional the department is, etc., etc.: mad:
    If you look at my posts, I do not post often, but I read alot and this bantering chaps my *** especially when fellow brothers do not have the facts, but yet they like to attack other departments based on a stupid reporters and editors picking and chosing of what to print!
    You see, from up on yourr high horse, you really can't see who it is you are speaking to. In this particular case, you are speaking to people who are quite experienced in this area. Training people, investigators, fire officers, etc. As CR said, I have BEEN THERE. Every single fatal training accident involving a live burn that has occurred in the past 30 years has been caused by exactly the same things. Don't believe me? Do some research. Milford, Boulder, Lairdsville, Delware, ORange County, Parsippany...go ahead.

    I can state unequivocally, that an instructor using diesel fuel-I don't care how much, where it was put or who was in the fire-is WRONG! I can state that through factual experience investigating and researching live fire training accidents.

    You want to criticize people here, you had better pick a different topic. You are in WAY over your head here, buddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    You see, from up on yourr high horse, you really can't see who it is you are speaking to. In this particular case, you are speaking to people who are quite experienced in this area. Training people, investigators, fire officers, etc. As CR said, I have BEEN THERE. Every single fatal training accident involving a live burn that has occurred in the past 30 years has been caused by exactly the same things. Don't believe me? Do some research. Milford, Boulder, Lairdsville, Delware, ORange County, Parsippany...go ahead.

    I can state unequivocally, that an instructor using diesel fuel-I don't care how much, where it was put or who was in the fire-is WRONG! I can state that through factual experience investigating and researching live fire training accidents.

    You want to criticize people here, you had better pick a different topic. You are in WAY over your head here, buddy.

    That is your opinion and exactly my point George! You do not know me and I am not in way over my head. I do not need to lay my credentials down for you, but I can state unequivocally, that an instructor using diesel fuel- is NOT! If you specific knowledge, training, other tangibles, and you know the characteristics, the behavior, and specifics of the fuel and fuels you are using with the diesel, then it is completely safe. It is when you get the person who does not what they are doing and wants to make a "good" fire where things go wrong. As for your information I am experienced, I am an active career Fire Lieutenant, an Instructor for a fire academy where I conduct live training a minimum of 8 times per year in towers and acquired structures, and I have been trained and have my BS in Occupational Health and Safety with a Major Concentration in Fire Science and Safety. I also, attend OSHA/DOL Training on a regular basis. Therefore, I guess my view from my high horse is pretty good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizan1 View Post
    If you specific knowledge, training, other tangibles, and you know the characteristics, the behavior, and specifics of the fuel and fuels you are using with the diesel, then it is completely safe.
    Sorry, but that is a dangerous statement. Nothing is completely safe about live fire training and that mentality is an LODD waiting to happen. You need to enter training with the idea that what you are about to do is VERY dangerous and that it needs to be taken seriously. If you think standing close to a live fire with an open cup of flamable liquid is completely safe then I thank God you aren't my trainig officer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkfd7505 View Post
    Sorry, but that is a dangerous statement. Nothing is completely safe about live fire training and that mentality is an LODD waiting to happen. You need to enter training with the idea that what you are about to do is VERY dangerous and needs to be taken serious. If you think standing close to a live fire with an open cup of flamable liquid is completely safe then I thank God you aren't my trainig officer.
    I do not recall ever agreeing with that or condoning that, did I? I also never stated the approach I take to training, or the approach I instill in the cadets in the classroom or on the training ground. Your response is my point 100 percent. I write things and leave things out just to get a response from people. You are drawing your own conclusions based my on what was typed in my post, the same thing everyone here is doing to the Florida fire story. Thanks pkfd7505, I can now rest my case and just go back to reading all the funny posts. Take care and be safe, besides you never know when I may show up to be your training officer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizan1 View Post
    That is your opinion and exactly my point George! You do not know me and I am not in way over my head. I do not need to lay my credentials down for you, but I can state unequivocally, that an instructor using diesel fuel- is NOT! If you specific knowledge, training, other tangibles, and you know the characteristics, the behavior, and specifics of the fuel and fuels you are using with the diesel, then it is completely safe. It is when you get the person who does not what they are doing and wants to make a "good" fire where things go wrong. As for your information I am experienced, I am an active career Fire Lieutenant, an Instructor for a fire academy where I conduct live training a minimum of 8 times per year in towers and acquired structures, and I have been trained and have my BS in Occupational Health and Safety with a Major Concentration in Fire Science and Safety. I also, attend OSHA/DOL Training on a regular basis. Therefore, I guess my view from my high horse is pretty good.
    If you have the education you purport and still post that using diesel fuel in a training burn in any situation is safe, then you, pal, are a fool and your students are at risk. I hope and pray that the administrator of the Academy where you spew this nonsense reads this, recognizes you and cans your ***.

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    I write things and leave things out just to get a response from people.

    Proof of the level of your intelligence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizan1 View Post
    I do not recall ever agreeing with that or condoning that, did I? I also never stated the approach I take to training, or the approach I instill in the cadets in the classroom or on the training ground. Your response is my point 100 percent. I write things and leave things out just to get a response from people. You are drawing your own conclusions based my on what was typed in my post, the same thing everyone here is doing to the Florida fire story. Thanks pkfd7505, I can now rest my case and just go back to reading all the funny posts. Take care and be safe, besides you never know when I may show up to be your training officer.
    There are 2 FACTS from the Florida story that people have problems with. 1. they used flamable liquids, 2. they used live victims. BOTH are bad ideas that can get people killed. That pretty much puts the case to rest don't it? There is a world of difference between stating the facts and drawing a conclusion, regardless of how many pretty certs you have hanging on your wall. I understand what you are saying about people reading in to things, I just completely disagree with you, I don't think that is the case at all in this situation.


    P.S. Nice bike in your avatar BTW, did the "bling-bling" come with that or did it cost extra?

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