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  1. #61
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    What a bunch of Safety Sallies.

    Get a bunch of couches piled up.

    Use Av Gas and Diesel.

    Have a bloody big Recruit Roast.

    Let em learn the hard way.

    Then get your hands of it and wake up from your wet dream to the real world.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DocVBFDE14 View Post
    Personally, I think the flashover trainers are just as effective as a house built in 1950 that the owner barely maintained. I know here in Va Beach, we do acquire structures. Maybe they are "too" safe by only using Roscoe smoke, but it still allows us to actually throw ladders, move hose, find Randy and ventilate through many means. Recently we were allowed to do this in the former Lord and Taylors chain at Lynnhaven Mall. Is it perfect? No. Oh, we also place wax paper inside our face peices.

    Is it perfect, of course not. Is it a whole lot safer than a potential termite infested/damaged old house. I think recruits can get just as good if not better and safer view of fire growing inside the flashover trainer.
    Sounds like an excellant drill. Trust me I'd love to have a large area structure to train in safely with no fire and fake smoke. Using what's available is a hallmark of the fire service. I'm not convinced of the flashover simulators after having some discussions with many nationally recognized instructors who always tell you to ask the student what they actaully learned?

    We also turn away 10 times more structures for live fire training than we accept, as they are not structurally sound, are animal infested, or need too much work to make safe.

  3. #63
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    Animal infested? They won't be after you light 'em up.Even the belfry bats don't hang around.We use aquired structures.We don't "rookie roast",in fact we double the instructors with them.1403? ABSOLUTELY! You can still get good fires,not incinerate your crews,there still might be some extension but everything you see/do should mirror real world events but in a controlled overseen event with all the proper safeties in place.1403 reminds you to cover all these bases.Does it ensure that an aquired structure is still there after the first burn? Nope,but it DOES insure that all the "players"can be safely gotten outside when it goes.And that the proper amount of equipment is in place to control the results.They closest we come to the "roast"is during TI camera training where we put the instructor and the students in the burn room with a small fire in the burn pot .A slow steady fire is maintained while the students "sit around the campfire".In a while the heat stratifications start becoming quite evident.At that point the students extinquish the fire,vent the room and the process starts over.No burned equipment,no burned students,just a good exercise in fire behavior.Oh,and there is a charged line in the room,but you could put the fire out with a "can".George and I have had disagreements in the past but this is one NFPA requirement I can live with.And believe in. T.C.

  4. #64
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    Osceola County, FL (not Orange County) and the one George couldn't remember was Greenwood, DE.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingRon View Post
    Osceola County, FL (not Orange County) and the one George couldn't remember was Greenwood, DE.
    Thanks for the correction. At least I got the first letter and state right....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Oh, I'm so not worthy!
    And give up now while I have you on a rant? Hell no, I don't need help. I feel your passion for safety as you've seen the outcome of poor training instruction. Have you also seen fires where civilians died because of poor incident command, bad decisions, lack of skilled firefighters? How about dead firefighters who were not prepared for the job? I suppose none of the firefighters who died were trained in compliance with 1403?

    And for the record, I do not believe all NFPA standards are bad, but I disagree with many that are influenced in by the manufacturers in the name of our safety. Hell I don't dislike 1403, except that I question if you can have fires that truly prepare firefighters for their jobs without pushing the 1403 envelope.
    If this discussion is going to now become "I have seen more and done more that you have", it is over. You win. You're better than me.

    Your attitude about live fire training is dangerous and archaic.

  7. #67
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RFDACM02
    Oh, I'm so not worthy!
    And give up now while I have you on a rant? Hell no, I don't need help. I feel your passion for safety as you've seen the outcome of poor training instruction. Have you also seen fires where civilians died because of poor incident command, bad decisions, lack of skilled firefighters? How about dead firefighters who were not prepared for the job? I suppose none of the firefighters who died were trained in compliance with 1403?
    Brother.. you crossed the line with this post.

    Civilians have died in fires that had excellent command, good decisions and extremely skilled firefighters.

    Extremely skilled firefighters who were very well prepared physically and mentally for the job have died in the line of duty.

    As far as 1403 compliance in training.. it depends on whether they were trained pre 1403 or post 1403.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Originally Posted by RFDACM02


    Brother.. you crossed the line with this post.

    Civilians have died in fires that had excellent command, good decisions and extremely skilled firefighters.

    Extremely skilled firefighters who were very well prepared physically and mentally for the job have died in the line of duty.

    As far as 1403 compliance in training.. it depends on whether they were trained pre 1403 or post 1403.
    Capt. Sorry I had no intention to offend (not even George) my point was that saying that firefighters have been killed becuase of non-compliant training dismisses any other causes. George alluded to investigating firefighter deaths from a failed training incident. My assumption is that he's particpated in other investigations where fatalities occured and the cause was not non-1403 comliance. It's a sad fact that both civilians and brothers are killed regardless of the training when poor decisions, tactics, or otherwise have been employed. To ignore this fact would be to not learn from others mistakes. I pointed no fingers and had no particular incidents in mind, just that it happens.

    Of course tragedies happen when all the best forces come together. I'm not sure how you took my post but I certainly wasn't intending to slight anyone, merely point out that 1403 is no gaurantee of a successful outcome. A good start to a training program? Of course, but not the only factor.

    Note: Having re-read my post I can see how you might have taken my comments. Again, I am sorry that it was taken this way, I certainly didn't mean to imply in the incident George mentioned the fallen brothers were not properly trained. I have no knowledge of that incident and would not even speculate as to the cuase of such a tragedy. That is how I got started in this thread in the first place, with firefighters jumping on the bandwagon to trash others with very little information.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-08-2007 at 04:14 PM.

  9. #69
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    Default Rookie Roast vs NFPA 1403

    I have read the article put out about this departments tatics for training.I think in this day and age this is totaly unacceptable; however I can see both sides of the problem. There has become a fine line between training and much needed safety. The only problem is nobody is there to enforce it. This department said they take fireman inside until it is so hot they don't want to be there. Then in another statement they claim to be training them to be safe and build thier confidance level in a hot and smoky enviroment with the extra wieght of gear and zero visability. I think this department like so many other small departments had good intensions for what they are doing. If the firefighters on the department were trained this way and have not furthered thier education then when they become officers and train new firefighters these same tatics will be employed. I came from a larger county to a small south georgia city that used these tatics. ( I no longer work there) The chief had stated" if you wanted it easy go to work at the bank". That you should be able to put out every fire and if a single wall was all that was standing when you arrived it better be standing when you left. They used to train in two old school busses put together with all the windows tinned up tight, seats still inside and put 10 to 15 pallets inside and you could only use a booster hose on 12 gpm. If you could not handle the heat they would not let you be on the fire department. I was trained to this set of standards when I came to work for them. I knew it was not right but enjoyed getting paid to fight fire.
    Till I finally decided I would not be able to change this way of thinking and quit working for them.
    However I see firefighters showing up for training at state live burn centers saying they have 5 years of experience and are good firefighters. Then you get them in a Class A burn building with only 3 or 4 pallets in a large burn room and they complain about the heat. Its too hot they need to leave. These fires would not have rated a good kitchen fire. They have been taught that if you pull up and have moderate smoke or fire you should let the structure go to the ground. What if these firefighters were made to decide about a rescue of a civilian or brother firefighter in trouble. Fires are hot, the job is sometimes dangerous. Thats what you get paid for. Would they make entrance or let you die because they have only seen pallets and have never been in a real fire. Today firefighters are recieving less call volume due to good safety educators, however this has caused a less experienced work force. They have strong book knowledge with no street time to back it up. I am not saying burn the rookie but you need to let the fires get bigger as they become more confident to build knowledge so they make good decisions when they are on scene. These same rookies might be in command initially on a volunteer department. They need to know what can be extinguished vs what can not. But where do you draw they line between training and stupidity. I think there are more departments training this same way then following NFPA. How as a profession do we solve this problem? Because talking is not getting it done.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    If this discussion is going to now become "I have seen more and done more that you have", it is over. You win. You're better than me.
    You lost me there. Done more? Seen more? Where does this come from? Becuase I asked if you seen other tragedies that were not caused by non-compliant training? I merely was making a point that one cannot make a blanket statement about all training, all accidents, all tragedies.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Your attitude about live fire training is dangerous and archaic.
    How is my attitude dangerous? Becuase I don't beleive that 1403 is a silver bullet that automatically makes for successful live fire training. The fact that 1403 only requires that instructors be qualified by the AHJ is one of the reasons you can have dangerous 1403 compliant drills.I told you time and again, that any burns I've been involved in in recent years are 1403 compliant. The reason that we have such rules as 1403 is because often our view of common sense is too greatly varied. Given the number of live fire training sessions conducted 20 years ago compared to today, it is easy to see a reduction in injuries and worse. So is 1403 the reason for less injuries and deaths, sure. But safer is not the only reason. More liablility, more training requirements, more time, more prep = less actual live fire training. The outcome is good right? No one wants to see injured brothers or sisters. Or are we setting ourselves up for more OTJ injuries?
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-09-2007 at 11:01 PM.

  12. #72
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    Your paradoxes are overwhelming.


    A STANDARD is something that should, indeed MUST, evolve to remain a standard.

    How the standard comes about is irrelevant to the core issue of WHY it was bought about in the first place.

    It MUST be an evolving thing that has a peer revue over time to keep up with knowledge and learning.

    Maybe the old expression "when the bell rings, be there." applies.

    If you have serious concerns over the standard. Get involved, suggest your "improvements", let them the committee revue them and if accepted by the majority accepted as the new standard.

    Until then....

    Keep doing it into a head wind.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    How is my attitude dangerous? Becuase I don't beleive that 1403 is a silver bullet that automatically makes for successful live fire training. The fact that 1403 only requires that instructors be qualified by the AHJ is one of the reasons you can have dangerous 1403 compliant drills.I told you time and again, that any burns I've been involved in in recent years are 1403 compliant. The reason that we have such rules as 1403 is because often our view of common sense is too greatly varied. Given the number of live fire training sessions conducted 20 years ago compared to today, it is easy to see a reduction in injuries and worse. So is 1403 the reason for less injuries and deaths, sure. But safer is not the only reason. More liablility, more training requirements, more time, more prep = less actual live fire training. The outcome is good right? No one wants to see injured brothers or sisters. Or are we setting ourselves up for more OTJ injuries?
    Contact the family of Brad Golden in Lairdsville, NY and see if they agree with your point of view....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by 255nozzle View Post
    They used to train in two old school busses put together with all the windows tinned up tight, seats still inside and put 10 to 15 pallets inside and you could only use a booster hose on 12 gpm. If you could not handle the heat they would not let you be on the fire department. I was trained to this set of standards when I came to work for them. I knew it was not right but enjoyed getting paid to fight fire.
    Till I finally decided I would not be able to change this way of thinking and quit working for them.


    Does Parsippany, N.J. ring a bell to anyone here? They thought a school bus was a good training prop too. Ask them what they think now.

    This is precisely the reason why we have 1403. To save the ignorant and the stupid from killing themselves...And, in turn, from killing us!

    255nozzle, I'm in no way aiming this at you. Just to the reference you made to your previous department and its chief.




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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Contact the family of Brad Golden in Lairdsville, NY and see if they agree with your point of view....
    Capt. I'm sure you know as well as I that the Lairdsville fatality was so far from remotely safe that to use that in comparision is not even reality. The issue was more than one department and many Chief Officers with complete ignorance to safety at any level. But to one end, the lead instructor was 1403 compliant to be an instructor because his Chief, the AHJ, said it was OK! The levels of incompetence in that tragedy run deeper than the criminal charges that were brought. Again, we're way past anything positive here, so I'll leave it alone.

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    They used to train in two old school busses put together with all the windows tinned up tight, seats still inside and put 10 to 15 pallets inside and you could only use a booster hose on 12 gpm. If you could not handle the heat they would not let you be on the fire department. I was trained to this set of standards when I came to work for them. I knew it was not right but enjoyed getting paid to fight fire.


    (Post edited with a sincere apology to 25Snozzle).
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 02-10-2007 at 02:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    They used to train in two old school busses put together with all the windows tinned up tight, seats still inside and put 10 to 15 pallets inside and you could only use a booster hose on 12 gpm. If you could not handle the heat they would not let you be on the fire department. I was trained to this set of standards when I came to work for them. I knew it was not right but enjoyed getting paid to fight fire.


    So, essentially you're not only a fool, you are a whore, too. What else would you do that was wrong in order to "get paid to fight fire"?

    The incident that I spoke about before occurred in a school bus. I arrived on scene while it was still smoldering. Trust me, 10-15 pallets in the school bus is more than enough fuel to create flashover conditions. A 12 gpm booster line is a glorified garden hose and has no place in today's fire service.

    But you proved you had a bid d+9k and you are a man. Are you proud of yourself? You really showed all of us what kind of "man" you really are.
    Oh come on. The guy clearly stated that he thought this was not right and that it was just how he was trained and that he left the department because he disagreed with these practices. And now you want to bust his balls because of something he had no control over??? In your rabid devotion to safety you are now turning a blind eye to people who agree with you? And as for rfdacm02 - he's agreeing with you too! All he's saying is that just because you conform to the letter of the law does not insure a safe training session. Are you totally discounting the fact that a dept. can comply with 1403 and still not be safe due to inexperienced personnel and that a dept. may not meet every single point in 1403 and yet could still be conducting safe training? Thats just naive and small minded. I agree with arguing your point, but this is taking it beyond the pale.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 02-10-2007 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Added a much needed "e"
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Oh come on. The guy clearly stated that he thought this was not right and that it was just how he was trained and that he left the department because he disagreed with these practices. And now you want to bust his balls because of something he had no control over??? In your rabid devotion to safety you are now turning a blind eye to people who agree with you? And as for rfdacm02 - he's agreeing with you too! All he's saying is that just because you conform to the letter of the law does not insure a safe training session. Are you totally discounting the fact that a dept. can comply with 1403 and still not be safe due to inexperienced personnel and that a dept. may not meet very single point in 1403 and yet could still be conducting safe training? Thats just naive and small minded. I agree with arguing your point, but this is taking it beyond the pale.
    Based on this post, I reread the post I was commenting on. I completely misread it. I was wrong. I apologize to 25Snozzle and I will edit the post.

    Thank you for bringing this gross error to my attention.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949 View Post
    This is precisely the reason why we have 1403. To save the ignorant and the stupid from killing themselves...And, in turn, from killing us!
    Kevin
    Don't take this the wrong way. I was talking to an equipment manufacturer one time and I made the comment about how they had idioy proofed the piece of equipment. He laughed and told me they stopped trying to idiot proof their stuff. Everytime they thought they had it idiot proofed someone went and invented a better idiot.

    Which then begs the question: What makes you so sure that having a regulation will save us from the ignorant and stupid. After all, if they are ignorant and stupid will they know how to read the regulation and use it. Then again, they are ignorant to it's very existance.

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    RFDACM02:
    You cannot possibly discuss safety in live fire training without discussing Lairdsville or Osceola County for that matter. There are those that rail on the NIOSH report, but the local jurisdictions have no interest in providing us with details of their investigations, so we are stuck with reviewing NIOSH fatality reports.
    I did alot of research on Lairdsville and in another venue, I would be more than glad to share it with you. I tried to copy and paste it here, but with all of the problems this website is having, it wouldn't let me do it.
    But here is a fresh training death right from the front page. Read it and come back for more discussion.
    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=39&id=53403
    CR
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