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  1. #201
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    You know, I'm amazed that there are still so many people in the fire service, from firefighters to chiefs, that buck this standard (either in part, or in its entirety) with such fervor.

    Just this afternoon, myself, along with three very highly respected officers in my department finished teaching the 40 hour State of Florida mandated class to become a Florida Certified Live Fire Instructor, to 15 of our own Brothers and Sisters. These people will soon be taking the state exam for their Florida LFI-1 certification.

    During the course of the class, we discussed in great detail the many events of the past 25 years that led to the implementation of NFPA-1403. Not one of the students in the class, many of them well seasoned veterans that have seen more fire in their careers than many of us ever will, argued against one single part of 1403 as being unnecessary or overly cautious. Why is that do you suppose? Are they all a bunch of "Safety Suzie's"? Not hardly.
    Perhaps it's simply because they recognize the importance of a standard that is designed to allow people to train under live fire conditions, while at the same time limiting, to the best of our ability, the risk of a similar catastrophic incident occurring to one of our Brothers or Sisters.

    I can proudly say that my department follows ALL the guidelines of 1403, not just the ones that we feel are necessary, or easy. In fact, we actually well exceed a number of the requirements of the standard in several different areas.

    I guess I feel a little more passionate about strictly following this standard than some of you may, and that's fine. I just don't want the death, or serious injury of one of my own to be the result of my failing to ensure the safest possible training environment I can.
    The live fire training we provide, I feel is excellent. It's hot, it's smoky and it's as "real world" as we can possibly make it with the intention being to learn, not die from it.

    This job is plenty dangerous on its own. Let's not make it any worse for no reason.




    Kevin
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    IAFF Local 2339
    K of C 4th Degree
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    "Fir na tine"

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    but you can be safe and not meet 1403

    Not with live fire training. No you can not. But, please, tell us which segments of 1403 that you can live without and still have the scene be safe. Please give specific sections.
    I've changed this original post as I can see that at this point it does no good. IYou've misconstrued my points to make it look as though I do not agree with 1403 or think it does not need to be followed in its entirety. his is just not the case, but as many a firefighter I like to argue the finer points of an issue. I guess I'll just disagree with you that 1403 is the end all only possible way to conduct live fire training safely. That being the case the group that wrote it should be tasked with writing most other standards to gaurantee our safety
    out in the field too.

    I'll leave you with this:Think about who is certifying the 1403 compliant instructors and participants. Who is the AHJ? Do they know what they are certifying their people to? Do they have the real prerequisites themselves? The AHJ(s) skated free in Lairdsville. In fact there were more than one AHJ's of different dept.s involved who did not get prosecuted for allowing incompetant instructors and underqualified students to participate in live fire training. Do you think this has happened anywhere else? Only with luck have we not killed more firefighters in this manner. There is more to live fire training than meeting the standard, a truly competant chief will look deeper than just the paper 1403 is printed on.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-24-2007 at 08:34 AM. Reason: deleted any argumentative points for sake of all.

  3. #203
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    I can safely say that in Florida over 2 years was spent (during the legislative process) to develope a live fire training standard train the trainer for instructors. In Florida before you can even be an instructor you have to have a minimum of 6 years in a department. I know that is not a significant amount...but it is a start. The people that developed the program are the master trainers and have years of experience and most of them work in training centers or at the Fire College. So while I am not the complete fan of the Florida State Fire College in all avenues, I can say they did this one up well.

    People in Fla will be held required to account for their actions and as I said before, the State has left no doubt that if found in violation of the statute
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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  4. #204
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    Default How Ironic!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I thought this was interesting.

    Round 18 of the AFG SAFER Grants...

    High Springs Fire Department FL Operations and Safety $64,406
    I wonder if the review committee would have awarded this if the training incident occurred first? Hopefully they will put that money to use. It certainly seems they did not put much $$ in to safety before as apparent from the training incident?
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  5. #205
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    Post Time for this FF to catch up....

    Been away..or busy...or both. Time to read up on this LODD.

    Oh yeah...this tidbit from 3/7/07

    Former fire training director says chief knew about planned burn
    BALTIMORE (AP) - Baltimore's fire chief knew beforehand about
    plans for a live burn training exercise in which a firefighter
    recruit died last month, according to the city's former fire
    training director, who was fired after the incident.
    Kenneth Hyde told The Baltimore Examiner for a story in
    Wednesday's editions that top fire officials attended a meeting the
    week before Racheal Wilson died in which he spoke about training
    the current class of fire recruits and told them about scheduled
    live burns.
    "We discussed live burns, and the chief safety officer
    questioned me about them, including the dates of the burns," Hyde
    said.
    Rick Binetti, a spokesman for the fire department, disputed
    Hyde's account. "At the meeting based on the minutes, and my
    recollection having been there, the discussion of live burns never
    came up," he said.
    Wilson died Feb. 9 after her foot broke through the weakened
    floor of a burning rowhouse and got stuck as she tried to exit
    through a window.
    A report on the training exercise found several safety
    violations, including that no instructors were inside the burning
    building to help recruits, no radios were available to call for
    help and more than one fire was set - a violation of national
    standards.
    The report also found that the rowhouse where the exercise was
    held was never supposed to be used in a live burn. Recruits had
    used the building to practice pulling down walls and ceilings,
    which "enabled the fire to spread," the report found.
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  6. #206
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    A report on the training exercise found several safety
    violations, including that no instructors were inside the burning
    building to help recruits, no radios were available to call for
    help and more than one fire was set - a violation of national
    standards.
    The report also found that the rowhouse where the exercise was
    held was never supposed to be used in a live burn. Recruits had
    used the building to practice pulling down walls and ceilings,
    which "enabled the fire to spread," the report found.



    This sounds so much like Baird, Croman and company...it's frightening. Now...will the same BLAME GAME be played...as the investigation goes on?
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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  7. #207
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    I don't doubt for a minute that the chief KNEW of the training exercise and I don't doubt that the chief thought he had the right man in charge of the training exercise.
    What I doubt is that the chief knew what training evolutions would be involved that day. But who knows; maybe some of these senior officers bought their diplomas too.
    American fire departments need to take this time to seriously examine their operations from top to bottom, in every way.
    It appears that the fire service as I know it is unraveling from traffic accidents, to training, to heart attacks, flashovers, building collapses, etc...
    We are suppose to learn from our mistakes. Instead, we seem to be repeating them. It has to stop.
    And WE are the only ones who can stop it. Firefighters, each and every one has to demand better. Call it a revolution; call it a renaissance, but it has to change.
    There was a national summit just held to discuss LODD. They said in the article that they would send draft to the participants. Well, I wasn't there, but I would damn sure like to see the draft. 400 participants represents what; .04 percent of our nation firefighters?
    My point is that WE know what is killing US. A summit won't stop it. And especially when "stakeholders" were 99.96% absent.
    CR
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  8. #208
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    I am not wishing to point cultural fingers anywhere, but CR's comments brought up an old memory of a conversation I had with a sailor from the JOHN C. STENNIS carrier during our sojourn to the Arabian Gulf in 2001.

    We were having beers in the mess aboard my ship and through the course of conversation he asked me "How many have you lost this trip so far?"

    I had to ask for clarification of that question. His answer was to say "How many sailors have you lost on this trip since we left San Diego? Ya know, guys disappearing over the side while under way or not reporting back after a port visit."

    I nearly dun fell out! By that time I had very close to 5 years sea time and almost 1/2 my career had been spent working closely with the navy. The answer was a resounding and incredulous ZERO. (well ok, there was one, but he decided at the last minute it was a bad idea and by luck more than anything the Lifeboy Sentry heard him call out and we were able to recover him) In fact the Canadian Navy has a very good track record of not loosing sailors over the side. Although we did loose one last spring, of the Irish coast somewhere.

    Anyway, back to my "cultural" differences - the US Navy accepts that there will be folks who go missing during any given cruise as a state of day to day operations. In other words, "It just Is". And to me thats a sad state to accept. Seems that perhaps the fire service is really not a lot different. Individually we all agree that loss of life for stupid reasons is unacceptable, but as a group whole...... ???? Something about the life of the herd makes an image in my mind for some reason.

    Ah well enough of the musings of a wandering mind.
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  9. #209
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    I see some articles back and forth about the Baltimore tragedy, but despite my searches, there is nothing more about the Florida Department that is being investigated for violating state law during a training burn.

    Just thought I would return this one to the top.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
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    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    I am not wishing to point cultural fingers anywhere, but CR's comments brought up an old memory of a conversation I had with a sailor from the JOHN C. STENNIS carrier during our sojourn to the Arabian Gulf in 2001.

    We were having beers in the mess aboard my ship and through the course of conversation he asked me "How many have you lost this trip so far?"

    I had to ask for clarification of that question. His answer was to say "How many sailors have you lost on this trip since we left San Diego? Ya know, guys disappearing over the side while under way or not reporting back after a port visit."

    I nearly dun fell out! By that time I had very close to 5 years sea time and almost 1/2 my career had been spent working closely with the navy. The answer was a resounding and incredulous ZERO. (well ok, there was one, but he decided at the last minute it was a bad idea and by luck more than anything the Lifeboy Sentry heard him call out and we were able to recover him) In fact the Canadian Navy has a very good track record of not loosing sailors over the side. Although we did loose one last spring, of the Irish coast somewhere.

    Anyway, back to my "cultural" differences - the US Navy accepts that there will be folks who go missing during any given cruise as a state of day to day operations. In other words, "It just Is". And to me thats a sad state to accept. Seems that perhaps the fire service is really not a lot different. Individually we all agree that loss of life for stupid reasons is unacceptable, but as a group whole...... ???? Something about the life of the herd makes an image in my mind for some reason.

    Ah well enough of the musings of a wandering mind.

    Never served on a carrier. I have only served on the old Spu-Cans. Having provided plane guard duty and been stuck at flight quarters for 13-14 hours with them, there is a reason the Navy accepts this. It is not accepted on any ship smaller than an aircraft carrier. It is expected on a carrier because only a few other navies around the world, operate a carrier like we do. I'll take a hi-rise fire or a wild fire, before I will stand and work on the flight deck of a carrier at sea. It is dangerous and it is hard. Accidents happen. More often than people are allowed to believe.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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