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  1. #1
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    Default Not everybody learned from Lairdsville.....

    From www.firefighterclosecalls.com :

    PLANNING DEATH AT FIREFIGHTER TRAINING: THE ROOKIE ROAST


    Monday, January 29, 2007
    HIGH SPRINGS, FL. A fire raged Sunday at a High Springs home, but this blaze had no ties to tragedy, heartache or even significant danger.

    High Springs firefighters burned the home, located on Northwest First Avenue between 12th and 13th Streets, as a way to train new firefighters.

    The group of 16 firefighters, two of whom were from a Bell fire unit, and the rest from High Springs began training with smoke exercises at the home at 7:30 a.m. and continued well into the afternoon until actually lighting the home and burning the structure.

    High Springs Fire Chief Terry Jewell helped oversee the training, in which new firefighters were paired up with those who had more experience and were put to the test in numerous ways. These rookies had to undergo a "rookie roast" in which they stayed in a room with their partner until they couldnít take the heat any longer.

    The smoke training, Jewell said, helps get new firefighters acclimated to working in completely dark rooms while wearing their heavy gear.
    We smoke the house up to a black state where you cant see anything, and we do rescue operations with either a live person on air or a child simulator, he said. Its a good tool for us to learn ...where we need to go with them.

    Dwayne King, a firefighter/emergency medical technician of 17 years, said that rescues take time to get used to because a room full of smoke will be completely black and will have a layout that is unfamiliar to the rescuer. To add to the difficulty, a firefighter will be wearing abut 75 pounds of equipment and crawling on the floor to avoid the high temperatures on the ceiling, which can reach 1,100 degrees, King said.

    After smoke training, Jewell said, the firefighters concentrated on simulating a real fire situation in a single room of the home.

    Each firefighter got one or two chances to extinguish the fire in the room, Jewell said. Then, in what is known as a rookie roast, the firefighters were tested to see how long they could safely withstand the heat of an intense blaze.

    We stay in there until the last possible moment to see who buckles. Jewell said. Itís not dangerous, just makes you feel like you want to leave. The idea is, you stay with your partner no matter what and its hot and dark.

    A fire fighter holds a glass of flammable liquid as he prepares to ignite other areas of the home as part of the practice burn Sunday.
    Lt. Bruce Gillingham, who has been a firefighter for 11 years, said that safety is the main issue when preparing for a burn.

    A home that will be burned undergoes safety checks and procedures in about a month-long process that involves constant work by the firefighters themselves.

    During the fire, several people keep count of everyone on scene at all times, to make sure everyone is accounted for.

    Also, at least five backup people will be on a fire scene, checking to make sure that anyone inside is safe.

    Even after the fire is extinguished, he said, firefighters will continue to monitor the home for at least several days to make sure that everything is put out.

    Every aspect of the fire is controlled, he said, but the situation still is a great one for new firefighters to learn from and more experienced firefighters to continue their training.

    Andy Pearce, who has been a firefighter/EMT for three years, said practicing in such situations gives firefighters a better idea of how they will react in an emergency.

    Its a totally different world, he said of learning to work in darkness. You have to use your other senses.
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Unbelievable-the complete ignorance of standards combined with with an attitude of "who's got a bigger pair" in a so called training fire with brand new fire fighters. They only need to look across their state to see fire training deaths.
    Last edited by KenNFD1219; 01-30-2007 at 07:45 PM.
    -------------------
    "The most mediocre man or woman can suddenly seem dynamic, forceful, and decisive if he or she is mean enough." from "Crazy Bosses"
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  3. #3
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Mutts in the guise of "brotherhood..."
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Some scary words in there:
    Live victim
    Flammable liquid
    Rookie



    They talk the talk, but they sure ain't walking the walk!

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Angry

    WTF???

    These rookies had to undergo a "rookie roast" in which they stayed in a room with their partner until they couldnít take the heat any longer.
    A fire fighter holds a glass of flammable liquid as he prepares to ignite other areas of the home as part of the practice burn Sunday.
    We stay in there until the last possible moment to see who buckles.


    Hey Stan, What say you on this?
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    Malahat, it's ok see:


    Then, in what is known as a rookie roast, the firefighters were tested to see how long they could safely withstand the heat of an intense blaze.
    Itís not dangerous, just makes you feel like you want to leave.
    Lt. Bruce Gillingham, who has been a firefighter for 11 years, said that safety is the main issue when preparing for a burn.

    If you say it enough it makes it so?

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    Malahat, it's ok see:









    If you say it enough it makes it so?
    "There's no place like Home. There's no place like Home. There's no place like Home." Oh.. I'm sorry. Was I supposed to be wearing the ruby slippers or were you? LOL But who gets to wear the tu-tu?
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber mtnfireguy's Avatar
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    Default 25 Years Later

    Note: This was one of the fires that resulted in the NFPA 1403 Ė Live Fire Training Standard being developed.


    1982, Bill Duran and Scott Smith died when an explosion ripped through an abandoned garage where the exercise was being held.

    "Sometimes, you know, it comes and goes," said Dan Cutler, a survivor of the explosion. "The building blew up in flames, floor to ceiling."

    The force of the explosion sent Cutler through the wall leaving burns over 60 percent of his body. Even injured, Cutler said he still tried to go back in to find his colleagues.


    http://cbs4denver.com/local/local_story_024180931.html
    Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
    "Everybody Goes Home"

    IACOJ 2003

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    If you say it enough it makes it so?
    That, plus they have never killed a trainee before, so it must be safe.
    -------------------
    "The most mediocre man or woman can suddenly seem dynamic, forceful, and decisive if he or she is mean enough." from "Crazy Bosses"
    -----------------------------------------------
    Genius has its limits, but stupidity is boundless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnfireguy View Post
    Note: This was one of the fires that resulted in the NFPA 1403 Ė Live Fire Training Standard being developed.


    1982, Bill Duran and Scott Smith died when an explosion ripped through an abandoned garage where the exercise was being held.

    "Sometimes, you know, it comes and goes," said Dan Cutler, a survivor of the explosion. "The building blew up in flames, floor to ceiling."

    The force of the explosion sent Cutler through the wall leaving burns over 60 percent of his body. Even injured, Cutler said he still tried to go back in to find his colleagues.


    http://cbs4denver.com/local/local_story_024180931.html
    I've been trying to post that story for days (unable to start a new post for some reason )... our fire training center (county regional) was built as a direct result of that incident. The tower is dedicated in their memory.

    Here is the story from the local paper (if it will let me post it).

    n the line of fire: In 1982, Boulder was site of nation's worst training accident

    By Christine Reid (Contact)
    Saturday, January 27, 2007
    Photo Gallery
    25th anniversary of Boulder's deadly fire training exercise

    25th anniversary of Boulder's worst firefighter training accident, which killed firefighters William J. Duran and Scott L. Smith and injured two others, spurred changes in fire training across the nation. One survivor and family members of the fallen visit the site of the accident.

    Firefighter Dan Cutler, center, Nita Razo, right, and Whitey Smith return to the site of a fire-training accident 25 years ago in Boulder, which left Cutler with severe burns and killed Razo's brother and Smith's son.

    Enlarge photos | View thumbnails

    Dan Cutler looks at the cold, snowpacked ground, remembering.

    It has been 25 years since he survived the nation's deadliest firefighting-training exercise at this nondescript spot in the middle of Boulder.

    That was before the condominiums and houses, when there was just a small garage that once housed chickens. Cutler clutches arms with the father and sister of firefighters who died in the botched exercise.

    "This is a place I really don't want to be," he says. "I don't feel anything here."

    A service commemorating Boulder Fire Rescue Engineer William J. Duran, 30, and firefighter Scott L. Smith, 21, is planned for today.

    But for their families, and Cutler, every day since the Jan. 26, 1982, accident has served as a day to remember.

    A dad, a pro

    Bill Duran would canvass his family members' homes during get-togethers and point out where there were too many plugs in an outlet or other fire hazards. It was a big job ó he had six siblings.

    It was clear to his family that he loved his job, and he prepared them for the worst it could bring.

    "We'd always be at family gatherings and he'd say, 'If something happens to me, don't blame the fire department,'" his sister, Nita Razo, said. She said the family would joke about it or try to change the subject because nobody wanted to dwell on it, but he would go on.

    "I chose this profession, and I love it. I know what the risks are," she recalled him saying. "If something happens, don't be angry. Be happy.

    "I don't think he had some premonition; he just wanted us to know this was his choice ó serving the community, serving his fellow man. It was so important to him."

    He grew up in Louisville and went into the Air Force at 19. He worked as a firefighter at the Strategic Air Command at Dyess Air Force Base in Texas. Four years later, he returned home and joined Boulder's department.

    Duran was quick to get the title of engineer, which put him in the driver's seat of Engine 11 ó his favorite yellow truck.

    His first son and namesake, who was 12 when the accident occurred, recalled a dad who was involved in his three children's lives ó from working the chains at football games to yelling until he was hoarse at wrestling matches. When his daughter Dedra was born in 1979, dad was "wrapped around her fingers," Bill Jr. wrote in a tribute.

    "The best part was that my father taught us to give of yourself and ask nothing in return, for your work and help was reward enough," he wrote.
    Memorial service

    Members of Boulder Fire Rescue will gather with the families of William J. Duran and Scott L. Smith at a ceremony at 10 a.m. today at Boulder Fire Station 3, 1585 30th St., to commemorate the 25th anniversary of their deaths. The public is welcome, and parking is available at Scott Carpenter Park.

    Returning to the spot this week where the accident took place so long ago makes Nita Razo numb.

    "There is a great sense of sadness, and the only really warm feeling I have right now is this guy right here," she says, clutching Cutler's arm tighter.

    "We just wish him peace."

    A driven rookie

    Scott Smith had a tough life, said his oldest brother, Phil Smith. Born with a hare lip and a cleft palate, by age 10 he had undergone three major operations.

    He aspired to become a travel agent. After graduating in Niwot High School's first class and then agent school, he was promised job after job that never panned out.

    Smith asked a girl to marry him and bought a trailer so they could start a life together. But she broke his heart before the wedding.

    Phil Smith, who was living out of the state, visited shortly after that and anticipated a gloomy stay with his brother. But Scott was as optimistic as ever. Phil said his brother actually cheered him up during the visit.

    "He wouldn't let life beat him down," Phil Smith said. "I just think he's a guy who overcame everything life threw at him."

    Some good finally came Smith's way in 1981 when a neighbor suggested he try out for the Boulder fire department, and he was thrilled when he landed the job.

    He was dating a nice woman, and things were looking up, Phil Smith said.

    "He was well on his way to having a great life."

    And then the job he had for a brief 31/2 months took his life.

    "If he were here today, he'd still be with the department," Phil Smith said. "He would have moved up the ranks. He would be having a great life.

    "He's been dead longer than he had been alive."

    His dad, Whitey Smith, said his youngest of three sons was a good athlete and never gave him and his wife, Lee, any trouble.

    "He wasn't a smoker, wasn't a drinker, never missed school," Whitey Smith said.

    Whitey and Lee Smith divorced for the second time after Scott's death, and Lee died in 2005.

    "It hurt Mother real bad," Whitey said, but she turned to her faith for strength.

    He didn't, he said.

    "I don't talk much about it," Whitey said. "Maybe there's people who know me who don't even know."

    Whitey, 84 and typically quick with a grin and funny story, falls unusually quiet as he surveys the spot where his youngest son died a few months before turning 22.

    He shakes his head.

    "I just can't imagine."

    A humbled survivor

    Cutler doesn't share his story much. As he told it this week, members of his crew at Station No. 6 peeked in and listened.

    It was just supposed to be a smoke training session, in which smoke fills up a building and firefighters use their sense of touch to try to find hidden items, then follow the water hose back to the exit. They were anxious to get it over with so they could eat the homemade burritos Duran had promised for lunch.

    The men suited up and headed inside the garage, even though smoke was billowing out of the building, Cutler said, an ominous sign that routinely means a fire should be fought from the outside.

    But it was a training exercise, and that meant trusting the people who'd set it up, Cutler said.

    The men crawled along the floor and retrieved the three items. Cutler could only recall one ó a box.

    Cutler's knees were hot, another bad firefighter omen. Duran said it was getting too hot, so the men turned around to head out. That's when fire filled the garage.

    Heating the rickety structure to up to 2,000 degrees, flames filled every space from the floor to the ceiling. Cutler called it a "gauntlet of orange."

    He remembers hearing a scream before diving out of where he thought the door was. He crashed to the ground through a false wall and was lit on fire. A nearby construction worker rushed to Cutler's aid and helped extinguish the flames on his body.

    None of the men but Lt. Cyrus Pinkerton, who was running the training session, knew the layout of the partitioned garage before the exercise.

    Pinkerton, who suffered minor burns, was on the fire engine trying to get water onto the blaze. Cutler tried to rush to help him but then realized his body felt "crinkley" and "stiff."

    Cutler spent three months in a burn unit, suffering second- and third-degree burns on up to 60 percent of his body. He endured nine surgeries and two years in a tight nylon body suit to help his skin heal.

    Cutler never thought about giving up the job. Nine months after the accident, he was back on the line. And he still is.

    "No. 1, I'm not a quitter," Cutler said.

    And second, he said, why would he leave the department that, each day, had driven his newly pregnant wife to Denver to see him in the hospital?

    "I love what I do, and the support is here," Cutler said. "You leave the job, and what do you have? The horrible memories ó I don't want to deal with them myself."

    Cutler didn't set out to become a firefighter until he was 30. He had earned a bachelor's and master's degree in economics and was working on a doctorate when a friend mentioned a job opening at a squad. Since nearly losing a brother in a fire as a teen, he said he had always been interested in firefighting, so he tried out and got the job.

    Cutler, 61, plans to retire next year. His second daughter, who was born around the time he got out of the hospital, is getting married this year.

    He will talk publicly about the accident this anniversary to help people understand, he said, and to help with healing. And whenever the families ask questions, he tells them all he can.

    "It's all a matter of helping everyone get through it," Cutler said.

    Wearing his blue firefighter uniform, Cutler kicks at the ground and keeps his hands in his pockets while at the accident site. He says in a choked-up voice that he can see the fire unfold as clearly as if it happened yesterday.

    But he doesn't need to come here to remember.

    "I have my burns to look at," he says.

  11. #11
    This space for rent NYSmokey's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    If you said "Lairdsville? Where is that?"

    READ THIS!

    http://server.firehouse.com/training...6_FHniosh.html
    Tom

    Never Forget 9-11-2001

    Stay safe out there!

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    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    In regards to the first post, why would you do stupid stuff like this? When dumbass people do stuff like this,and a fellow firefighter gets injured ,that just makes it more and more harder to actually do live burns.It's going to get to the point where we wont even be allowed to do burns someday I think. They're going to get someone seriously hurt down there. I take it this was in a local paper probably?

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    "In regards to the first post, why would you do stupid stuff like this? "

    Because its cool, don't you know? Everyone has to be "salty" and look "experienced". Take a look at the photographs. How many melted Bourke's do you see nowadays? Actions don't stand for anything; you need to melt that Garrity light on your lid "real good". Those are the "good shots" the "money shots" for your magazines and websites.

    "Each firefighter got one or two chances to extinguish the fire in the room, Jewell said. Then, in what is known as a rookie roast, the firefighters were tested to see how long they could safely withstand the heat of an intense blaze."

    So the group of 16, maybe everyone got at least one shot on the nob? Could have taken that "roast time" and given more instruction.

    "We stay in there until the last possible moment to see who buckles. Jewell said. Itís not dangerous, just makes you feel like you want to leave. The idea is, you stay with your partner no matter what and its hot and dark."

    Yeah. Why not teach them about the mayday and LUNAR and PASS devices.

    "It's going to get to the point where we wont even be allowed to do burns someday I think."

    Going to? I bet we're a lot closer than you think.

    William Carey
    Last edited by bcarey; 01-30-2007 at 10:01 PM.
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

    Rest in Peace

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    Makes me think of a quote I hear frequently on my career department and totally despise. "The fire went out and no one got hurt, so we must have done it right." Apparently these guys have the same mentality. When will they ever learn?

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    You know; it's strange, but I could have sworn NFPA and NIOSH outlawed the use of flammable liquids and live victims for training exercises.
    Where could I have possibly read that?
    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I remember; it was right here at Firehouse.com.
    So, these jamokes who want to roast rookies do it in the safest possible way?
    They have total control over the fire behavior? The rookies are with "experienced" firefighters; the ones without brains?
    I'll bet they had a news team there so they could show their community how sharp they are! Any takers?
    Pukers in turnout gear.
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    I know people will say I am wrong, and that I'm an idiot, but in a real fire, do you ever have flammable liquids? or situation that are way too hot? or the walls burning? or furniture? or (gasp!!) live victims?

    training is a great tool, but shouldn't we want to train in a real world scenario? if a firefighter has been in a burn tower, does that adequately prepare him for a fully involved SFD? I mean, our burn tower has cement floors, so I really don't have to worry about the truss floor giving out while you are performing suppression operations right? or, as I'm putting the fire out as the first in nozzle, having the glass cabinet finally burn through and have all the shelves collapse on my backup man?

    Please don't misunderstand me, I don't want to get anyone hurt in a training drill, but we train in a semi-controlled environment. which is great for safety, however a real fire isn't controlled at all. are we doing our rookies a disservice by training for in controlled environment for an environment that isn't such?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    Some scary words in there:
    Live victim
    Flammable liquid
    Rookie



    They talk the talk, but they sure ain't walking the walk!

    WRONG! They are not anywhere near as scary as: "Itís not dangerous"

  18. #18
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    DrP. I sort of almost agree with you. However here are my thoughts. Giving a Rookie a controlled environment to begin training is about the best way to initiate a person. My first ever fires were done at CFB Esquimalt Damage Control School for the Navy. The trainer we had was a huge 3/4" steel contruction. The entrance was about 15 feet long, on a slight down slope, with a left turn at the bottom. About 6 or 8 feet past the turn were two huge double doors with a drop latch on the approach side. Purpose was to teach door/hatch procedures. Past the doors, another 6 feet or so the corridor opened up into a T room. The room was about 10x10, with a ceiling height of about 8 feet. The floor was expanded steel mesh, with a floor gap of about 6 or 8 inches. This well was where the fires came from, in the form of oil/diesel mix. Across from the T entrance was an exit door to outside.

    During my class, we had 22 students. It was July and very hot - around 80F. 18 of us did our runs through before noon hour. I and 3 others had to wait until after lunch to do our run-throughs. As luck has it, I was #4 in line, with the rest of the class behind me, doing hosehandling.

    When the Instructor lit the fire, we were about 15 or 20 feet back from the entrance - good thing in this case. There was a BIG BANG, and a fireball that shot through the hallway and out the main entrance. The firefighter/instructor beside me, who was to lead us in, looked at me and said "Gee. I've never seen it do that before." Umm, ya, thats a great confidence booster for a rookie.

    So eventually we start our attack. Before we got to the left turn, we had rotated the Guy on the Nob twice. Which now placed me in the #2 slot. By the time we hit the doors, I got slid to the lead, and I finished the job. Which was no fun, because every time I'd chase the fire to a corner and almost have it totally overhauled, it would roll under our feet, through the fuel well, and re-light in another corner. It took the better part of (I think) 15 minutes from the time we cleared the doors until I finally got it cool enough to knock the flames out.

    I can remember entering through the doors and seeing fire rolling over my head, and water filling my boots from the spray. Oh.... I forgot to mention:

    Our gear consisted of what the Navy calls "B" gear. It has NO thermal protection, and almost no water repellancy. We wore no helmets, and over hands and heads, cotton gloves that go to the elbows, and flash hoods. Our "BAs" were CHEMOX units.

    That was in 1992. I joined my first civilian fire department (and learned better habits) in summer 2000. I am sad to report that the Canadian Navy still has these units in service as primary firefighting equipment.

    So having a controlled environment to start with, I think is a better way to train a new recruit. True it does not give a full range of how it "looks for real" but it gives enough of a taste that you can teach the Rookie what he needs to know as far as drills and good habits, and give him the confidence to do the job. For the "Real World" experiences, thats what us Old Guys are for, in the field, when we take him in for his "first fire".
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    Last edited by MalahatTwo7; 01-31-2007 at 06:55 AM.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

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    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    I know people will say I am wrong, and that I'm an idiot, but in a real fire, do you ever have flammable liquids? or situation that are way too hot? or the walls burning? or furniture? or (gasp!!) live victims?

    training is a great tool, but shouldn't we want to train in a real world scenario? if a firefighter has been in a burn tower, does that adequately prepare him for a fully involved SFD? I mean, our burn tower has cement floors, so I really don't have to worry about the truss floor giving out while you are performing suppression operations right? or, as I'm putting the fire out as the first in nozzle, having the glass cabinet finally burn through and have all the shelves collapse on my backup man?

    Please don't misunderstand me, I don't want to get anyone hurt in a training drill, but we train in a semi-controlled environment. which is great for safety, however a real fire isn't controlled at all. are we doing our rookies a disservice by training for in controlled environment for an environment that isn't such?
    OK, you're wrong.

    Training in a "semi-controlled" environment is not to allow the trainee to experience every situation he may encounter in the field. If that were the case, training would include alot of things that would simulate the real world.

    The "semi-controlled" environment allows the trainee to experience and observe situations in a fashion where he can learn something and then apply those experiences to the real world when he has to. You make the trainee see the phenomanon of fire up close and personal, see the things it will do and maybe even see the things it will not do.

    Remember, at least in my world, training includes time in the field, experiencing the "real world" under the tutelage of an FTO or a senior member. The trainee then applies the lessons he learned in the training exercises to those real world situations.

    Using your logic, we should have trainees fall off roofs or slice their hands on glass or experience frostbite or have kids run out in front of them as they are driving the apparatus or have the ceiling collapse on their heads so they can experience the "real world".

    This training exercise was irresponsible, at best and is probably a good reflection of this FD"s overall approach to professionalism and training.

    Didn't they just issue a scathing report in FL regarding killing a rookie in a training fire a couple of years ago?

  20. #20
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Let's address a few of the issues raised...

    Live Victim: In smoke made by a smoke machine? Sure. In smoke made from hay smoldering in a barrel that is monitored constantly with a control hose line ready? Sure. In smoke made from room fires in an acguired structure? Sorry, NO! It is dangerous and has already proven to be fatal in enough situations that we should NEVER do this anymore. AND...it is an NFPA violation.

    Flammable Liquids: Why? If you can't ignite a training fire using hay and papper and cardboard to get pallets burning I would be happy to come to your department and train you in basic fire starting. There is no need for flammable liquids in live fire structural fire training. AND...it is an NFPA violation.

    Rookies: The object of training is to prepare people to begin to do the job. Hurting them during training does NOT acomplish that goal. The first taste of live fire whether in a tower or an acquired structure is very critical to the successful training of a firefighter. They have to learn to crawl before they can walk, and walk before they can run. Start small fires to teach them fire growth and proper methods of extinguishment and venting. Work your way up to larger fires and this will build confidence and ability.

    Training is not about who has bigger balls or who can take it or who can go the longest. Itis about Safety first and preparing people to do the job.

    The rookie roast is the quite frankly one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard of. What is the point? To teach people to stay after the point of serious pain beginning? I just don't get it. Of course we want people to get a taste of heat but aren't we doing that as we advance in to attack the fire?

    I have been an instructor for 27 years and at this point i have had no serious injuries to a student, ever. And believe me I like a big fire as much as the next but we do it right and we do it safely.

    FyredUp

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