1. #1
    FLA1786
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    Default FDNY-Food for Thought

    This is STRICLY an opinion question. I'm looking for opinions on the matter just to bull**** about. No hostility or cruel intenions.

    (Disclaimer: I have no intention of doing the following. I also do not believe the following is in anyway an acceptable means of getting hired at present time.)

    With that said; The recent FDNY exam proved to be very waterd down and a sham. Anyone could score over a 98 on that, meaning, basically anyone who took the exam is fair game. Combine that with the CPAT and you have a pool of candidates where anyone can get on. A 100 on this exam isn't even compairable to a passing grade on the previous one. There is presumptively no merit in this system when compared with the old way. Having gotten all that out of the way, my question is this: Will EMS Pomo stay in the **** status if this process is to be sustained? This question was provoked by reading posts from people looking to do Chicago medic crossovers and getting no flack for it. If NYC stays with this bs of a system will EMS promo stay a big deal/issue?

    The EMS people can all obviously score high enough on this exam if they took the time and passed the extra schooling and went thru the academy. Hell, an 8th grader could pass this exam. The physical doesnt allow for one wrong anymore, its strictly pass or fail, so that fitness element is spread out fairly to everyone now. Meaning, Fat Joe took open competetive and passed CPAT with 10:19. Bill took CPAT on EMS promo list and passed with an average 9-flat. Bill and Joe bothed aced the joke written. With a test that is, for lack of better words, irrelevant and a physical that doesnt allow for different standards to different people (i.e. old physical allowed ems to botch one part and still get on before the guys who smoked it and aced written) EMS isnt looking to be much different from the open list. With that said it still bypasses the veterans and LODD unfairly.

    Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLA1786 View Post
    This is STRICLY an opinion question. I'm looking for opinions on the matter just to bull**** about. No hostility or cruel intenions.

    (Disclaimer: I have no intention of doing the following. I also do not believe the following is in anyway an acceptable means of getting hired at present time.)

    With that said; The recent FDNY exam proved to be very waterd down and a sham. Anyone could score over a 98 on that, meaning, basically anyone who took the exam is fair game. Combine that with the CPAT and you have a pool of candidates where anyone can get on. A 100 on this exam isn't even compairable to a passing grade on the previous one. There is presumptively no merit in this system when compared with the old way. Having gotten all that out of the way, my question is this: Will EMS Pomo stay in the **** status if this process is to be sustained? This question was provoked by reading posts from people looking to do Chicago medic crossovers and getting no flack for it. If NYC stays with this bs of a system will EMS promo stay a big deal/issue?

    The EMS people can all obviously score high enough on this exam if they took the time and passed the extra schooling and went thru the academy. Hell, an 8th grader could pass this exam. The physical doesnt allow for one wrong anymore, its strictly pass or fail, so that fitness element is spread out fairly to everyone now. Meaning, Fat Joe took open competetive and passed CPAT with 10:19. Bill took CPAT on EMS promo list and passed with an average 9-flat. Bill and Joe bothed aced the joke written. With a test that is, for lack of better words, irrelevant and a physical that doesnt allow for different standards to different people (i.e. old physical allowed ems to botch one part and still get on before the guys who smoked it and aced written) EMS isnt looking to be much different from the open list. With that said it still bypasses the veterans and LODD unfairly.

    Thoughts?
    I think anyone who comes on based on the "promotion" (bypassing the open competitive applicants) will always be looked at differently by most guys on the job. Right or wrong, it will happen.

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    Not to perform thread necro (well, this one isn't that old) but I have another question/angle on this that I would appreciate input on.

    My goal is to get on with suppression and I plan on doing this the way that 99.9% of the others are; by going through this current hiring process.

    However, this is obviously going to take some time with them putting the list together, going through the motions, and based on my placement on that list.

    In the meantime, I've moved up to NYC and I'm looking for employment. I'm not really keen on going into the office world, so that's out. My other two available options at this point are: bartender or FDNY EMS.

    EMS is something that I had planned on doing while I waited until I could get picked up by suppression, but I heard so much negativity about EMS that I had, and still have, second thoughts.

    I know that I'm already going to have big pieces of meat strung around my neck when I get picked up by suppression due to the dislike of the current process and I really don't want to add a few more pieces because I had previously worked for EMS.

    However, it also offers some benefits, of which I'm not certain of all yet, but I'm guessing...feel free to correct me. First, it IS working for FDNY. I can build time in towards pension, retirement, vacation, etc. I will get a leg up on knowing what it's like to work for the department, the bureaucracy, the people, etc. And, oh yeah, it's a job...which I DON'T have right now.

    But, I just don't want to start myself out on the wrong foot with the main reason I'm here: suppression.

    So, what do you guys think? Is it worth it, or is it going to be more hassle than it's worth? Also, do you guys have any ideas what it's like workin EMS? I haven't heard much positive, but I've only seen a few of the bashing sites and don't consider it the full picture.

    Now, just to reiterate: I AM NOT GOING TO USE THIS FOR A PROMOTION TO FIREFIGHTER! This is just a job to pay the bills until I can get on through this current hiring process.

    Also, I'm just being optimistic about getting hired. I feel good about how I scored on the test, I'm in good shape, and I've already been through and cleared the med/background/psych during the EMT process (besides for the heart rate test). Of course, I know that I can't say much until the list is put together, but I'm just staying positive.

    So, would you take the job in the meantime?

    Thanks for your input.
    Just a peon proby in the greatest job in the world; grinning ear to ear.

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    Do what you have to do to get on the job and get as much experience as possible in the meantime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLA1786 View Post
    This is STRICLY an opinion question. I'm looking for opinions on the matter just to bull**** about. No hostility or cruel intenions.

    (Disclaimer: I have no intention of doing the following. I also do not believe the following is in anyway an acceptable means of getting hired at present time.)

    With that said; The recent FDNY exam proved to be very waterd down and a sham. Anyone could score over a 98 on that, meaning, basically anyone who took the exam is fair game. Combine that with the CPAT and you have a pool of candidates where anyone can get on. A 100 on this exam isn't even compairable to a passing grade on the previous one. There is presumptively no merit in this system when compared with the old way. Having gotten all that out of the way, my question is this: Will EMS Pomo stay in the **** status if this process is to be sustained? This question was provoked by reading posts from people looking to do Chicago medic crossovers and getting no flack for it. If NYC stays with this bs of a system will EMS promo stay a big deal/issue?

    The EMS people can all obviously score high enough on this exam if they took the time and passed the extra schooling and went thru the academy. Hell, an 8th grader could pass this exam. The physical doesnt allow for one wrong anymore, its strictly pass or fail, so that fitness element is spread out fairly to everyone now. Meaning, Fat Joe took open competetive and passed CPAT with 10:19. Bill took CPAT on EMS promo list and passed with an average 9-flat. Bill and Joe bothed aced the joke written. With a test that is, for lack of better words, irrelevant and a physical that doesnt allow for different standards to different people (i.e. old physical allowed ems to botch one part and still get on before the guys who smoked it and aced written) EMS isnt looking to be much different from the open list. With that said it still bypasses the veterans and LODD unfairly.

    Thoughts?
    I know this test was very watered down from other tests but I have not heard of anyone on this forum or friends getting over a 95 on this test before residency or other extra points. Lots of people have been saying that everyone is going to get 100s but not one person on this forum has. If it was that easy someone would have gotten a hundred and posted it here.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with the poor timid spirits, who know neither victory nor defeat." FDR

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    Great another guy from 'out of town'! Just kidding but learn to lose the accent before you get on, or atleast make it from Bahston :-) Go EMS dont F around if you really want this job. Personally knowing what I know now, my *** would be in California making 100k a year on my back with a 20 year pension with the ability to drop for 5 years (which means collect your pension and still work while your salary is directly deposited into your retirement plan) then get out with a 110% pension. Fires are great but so is a fair living wage and NYC isnt it!


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    Quote Originally Posted by FLA1786 View Post
    This question was provoked by reading posts from people looking to do Chicago medic crossovers and getting no flack for it.
    Don't fool yourself. There are still plenty of problems with the crossover program here and backdooring your way on is still not the accepted way. Crossovers are still viewed differently (not always bad, but usually with some skepticism until they prove that they are not just ducking medics).
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by ant195 View Post
    I know this test was very watered down from other tests but I have not heard of anyone on this forum or friends getting over a 95 on this test before residency or other extra points. Lots of people have been saying that everyone is going to get 100s but not one person on this forum has. If it was that easy someone would have gotten a hundred and posted it here.

    I took the test, and yes it was extremely easy, also i did get above a 95. The reason you will see most people getting below a 95 is because of the bull**** opinion questions. Those are the only questions i got wrong and speaking to many of my friends, those questions are the only ones they got wrong too. The other part of the test was definately easy. Agreeing with you i have talked to many people and the highest i have heard someone get is a 98 without city residency points etc... Its a shame that this happened but there are many people like myself who tried their hardest on this test and studied extremely hard for this years test and i hope that it pays off...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLA1786
    The recent FDNY exam proved to be very waterd down and a sham. Anyone could score over a 98 on that, meaning, basically anyone who took the exam is fair game. Combine that with the CPAT and you have a pool of candidates where anyone can get on. A 100 on this exam isn't even compairable to a passing grade on the previous one. There is presumptively no merit in this system when compared with the old way. Thoughts?
    It's sad, but FDNY will never be the same department after this. There will be a noticeable difference in the caliber of firefighter hired before 2007 (or whenever the list is made from this test) and those hired after 2007.

    The powers-that-be were determined to achieve diversity at any cost. The proven method for achieving diversity is to give a no-brainer written test that does not discriminate the mediocre applicant from the outstanding applicant -- a huge number of test takers score in the 98-100 range. Same thing with the agility, by having a pass/fail test like CPAT you weed out only the very weakest and most unfit. Everyone else, from the person who only barely manages to finish in 10:19, to the guy who smokes it with the fastest time out of thousands of people is scored the same. What you are left with is a very large pool of eligibles who can either be selected based on their "non-merit factors" or, by sheer numbers you have what amounts to a lottery. Many other cities in the US have been doing this for years.

    Some will say, "Well, these people still have to get through Probie School, and The Rock will maintain FDNY's high standards." Maybe, but I doubt it. Despite the best intentions of the instructors to pass only those who measure up, they will ultimately run into a brick wall. The high-ups in the department will simply not allow Probie School to be the cause of "disparate impact."

    The true merit system of hiring as many of us knew it is a thing of the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeminoleB View Post
    In the meantime, I've moved up to NYC and I'm looking for employment. I'm not really keen on going into the office world, so that's out. My other two available options at this point are: bartender or FDNY EMS.
    Seminole: If you have some career or volunteer experience, have you thought about becoming an FDNY Dispatcher? Just food for thought for you.

    http://nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/job_opps/2031a_bfc.pdf
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Thanks for the input, guys. It's really driving me nuts. I want the suppression job so bad, I can taste it. My main goal between now and getting my packet is keeping clean (not that I'm a trouble maker, but I don't want ANYTHING on my record) and staying in shape.

    On top of my worries of having people think I'm "back-dooring," I'm worried about ensuring that I have time to exercise and keep myself sane. During my relatively short life in the fire service (I was a full-time FF/EMT-B with a county dept in Austin, TX), I've seen so many burnt out medics, and those guys were making 80k with OT. I haven't heard many good stories about working for FDNY EMS...

    Backstep - I don't think it's fair to say that "there will be a noticeable difference in the caliber" of the firefighters hired off this new list and that the department will never be the same. While I agree that this test will let a few through that aren't so great, I don't think it's correct to say that there won't be plenty that live up to expectations. It makes anyone that scored well sound like we're all going to be crap, which I can assure you isn't the case.

    As for the scores, in talking to people at the protest and everything I've read on this board, no one has scored above a 98 without preference points. Sure, that's obviously not everyone. But, while this test was much, much easier, and there are very likely MORE people that PASSED, it doesn't mean that they will have done well enough to get hired.

    You're 100% entitled to your opinion and I'm not arguing with it to incite another "this test sucks" argument in this thread. We've got enough of those already. I'd rather it have been as it was previously. The only questions I missed (which I know isn't saying a ton) were the subjective ones, so I feel as though I would do better with the previous test.

    But, I don't think you guys already in should think that everyone coming off this list is a drooling moron. At least give us the chance to prove ourselves.

    Again, thanks everyone for the input. They called me today for EMS, although I didn't get the message until after 4:30. They didn't say for what in the message, but I spoke with the guy last week and he told me about the EMT academy starting April 2nd and that I was up for consideration, so it's possible that's what they were looking for. I'll find out tomorrow, I guess.

    Stay safe.
    Just a peon proby in the greatest job in the world; grinning ear to ear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Seminole: If you have some career or volunteer experience, have you thought about becoming an FDNY Dispatcher? Just food for thought for you.
    http://nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/job_opps/2031a_bfc.pdf
    That's another possibility that I might have to look into. I need to find something to pay the bills soon or else I'm going to have to start selling my body and it's various fluids.

    Thanks for the heads-up, Buff.
    Just a peon proby in the greatest job in the world; grinning ear to ear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackstepFF View Post
    It's sad, but FDNY will never be the same department after this. There will be a noticeable difference in the caliber of firefighter hired before 2007 (or whenever the list is made from this test) and those hired after 2007.

    The powers-that-be were determined to achieve diversity at any cost. The proven method for achieving diversity is to give a no-brainer written test that does not discriminate the mediocre applicant from the outstanding applicant -- a huge number of test takers score in the 98-100 range. Same thing with the agility, by having a pass/fail test like CPAT you weed out only the very weakest and most unfit. Everyone else, from the person who only barely manages to finish in 10:19, to the guy who smokes it with the fastest time out of thousands of people is scored the same. What you are left with is a very large pool of eligibles who can either be selected based on their "non-merit factors" or, by sheer numbers you have what amounts to a lottery. Many other cities in the US have been doing this for years.

    Some will say, "Well, these people still have to get through Probie School, and The Rock will maintain FDNY's high standards." Maybe, but I doubt it. Despite the best intentions of the instructors to pass only those who measure up, they will ultimately run into a brick wall. The high-ups in the department will simply not allow Probie School to be the cause of "disparate impact."

    The true merit system of hiring as many of us knew it is a thing of the past.
    Exactly what I was thinking but didn't want to be the one to post it haha. The Rock can only do so much. Why don't you ask the drill masters in LAFD's probie school. All they can do is reccomend letting someone go for a sub-par performance but it is ultimatley up to the Fire Chief which continued to overrule the drill masters reccomendations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    I think anyone who comes on based on the "promotion" (bypassing the open competitive applicants) will always be looked at differently by most guys on the job. Right or wrong, it will happen.


    AKA- "Backdoor".
    No offense.
    Last edited by AZFF25; 03-13-2007 at 09:42 PM.
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    I don't see why people are looked down upon coming from FDNY EMS. They got the job to get more EMS experience and get to know the area and the guys. What's wrong about that? You know everyone can apply and get hired with FDNY EMS right? So that still makes it fair for everyone. Believe me I know you guys don't want some burnt out EMT or Medic that is just trying to get to the fire side for better benefits, pay, and a better union but you can't stereotype all into that category such as the indvidual that made this post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    I don't see why people are looked down upon coming from FDNY EMS. They got the job to get more EMS experience and get to know the area and the guys. What's wrong about that? You know everyone can apply and get hired with FDNY EMS right? So that still makes it fair for everyone. Believe me I know you guys don't want some burnt out EMT or Medic that is just trying to get to the fire side for better benefits, pay, and a better union but you can't stereotype all into that category such as the indvidual that made this post.
    Well its looked down upon because as a promo candidate you can cut the entire public list with bare minimum scores. Which if you really look at it, isnt moral at all. Youre skipping a bunch of people who gave way more than you, and forcing them to wait THAT much longer; keeping them and their dependents from benefits, salary, and what not. It also makes you look "lazy" which isnt good for the firehouse. As for it being fair for EVERYONE, thats not really true. You have to already be an EMT to apply for the job. So thats a whole other can of worms.

    I know if I were a fireman in NYC and the present test was going to be what is issued over the years to come I would RATHER ems promo guys then shlubs off the street who are no better then the guy next to them. I'm not stepping on toes here, but a 90 on this exam isnt hard, 5 points in the city and thats a 95, and we know who MOST of the city test takers are. If the jobs going to be GIVEN away then I think I'd rather it be given to those who put in the time then those who were delt a DREAM of a handout.

    I myself am most likely going to go the veteran way. Join the service, do the time, get the points, and hopefully make it. To anyone who does EMS, good luck, to anyone who moved to/lives in the city and gets in on those points alone, good luck, and to those who make it with no bonus points, GOOD LUCK

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLA1786 View Post
    Well its looked down upon because as a promo candidate you can cut the entire public list with bare minimum scores. Which if you really look at it, isnt moral at all. Youre skipping a bunch of people who gave way more than you, and forcing them to wait THAT much longer; keeping them and their dependents from benefits, salary, and what not. It also makes you look "lazy" which isnt good for the firehouse. As for it being fair for EVERYONE, thats not really true. You have to already be an EMT to apply for the job. So thats a whole other can of worms.

    I know if I were a fireman in NYC and the present test was going to be what is issued over the years to come I would RATHER ems promo guys then shlubs off the street who are no better then the guy next to them. I'm not stepping on toes here, but a 90 on this exam isnt hard, 5 points in the city and thats a 95, and we know who MOST of the city test takers are. If the jobs going to be GIVEN away then I think I'd rather it be given to those who put in the time then those who were delt a DREAM of a handout.

    I myself am most likely going to go the veteran way. Join the service, do the time, get the points, and hopefully make it. To anyone who does EMS, good luck, to anyone who moved to/lives in the city and gets in on those points alone, good luck, and to those who make it with no bonus points, GOOD LUCK
    im guessing the post youre replying to was drooling of sarcasm....
    The good thing about this job is that we have done so much, with so little, for so long that we can do everything with nothing...... which is what is wrong with this job.
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    I went EMS after working the private side.....BIGGEST mistake for ME. I came home from Afghanistan and my old job didn't want me anymore....so I went FDNY/EMS.....and being a Leatherneck....I found EMS wasn't regimented enough for me....so...I layed low, quit and went to work for the Counseling Unit.

    In EMS...there are a-lot of good people...but on the same note there are a TON of ****** bags.....and if you come from the promo....you will be seen as a "backdoor"....but that stigma can be dropped once you prove yourself NOT a ****** bag. And believe me....they know you are EMS...and you ARE a ****** bag once you enter quarters....give it time....and work hard....you'll drop that image quickly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeminoleB View Post
    Backstep - I don't think it's fair to say that "there will be a noticeable difference in the caliber" of the firefighters hired off this new list and that the department will never be the same. While I agree that this test will let a few through that aren't so great, I don't think it's correct to say that there won't be plenty that live up to expectations. It makes anyone that scored well sound like we're all going to be crap, which I can assure you isn't the case.
    Seminole: You are right, there will still be good candidates making it through the system, and I hope there will be plenty, but they will be mixed in with a whole lot of slugs. I was speaking in general terms, not about each and every individual candidate.

    IMO, the one thing that always set FDNY apart was the overall quality of the firefighters. You won't find a lot of 90 lb. weaklings or 300 lb. tubs of lard on the job (some might have slipped through the cracks via different mechanisms, but not many.) The reason for that was simple: a highly competitive selection process that included a tough, but realistic, scored agility test, not a pass/fail one.

    I stand by the statement that FDNY will never be the same. Again, generally speaking the overall quality of the candidates will be down. You can't sacrifice quality in order to achieve diversity and still expect the same result.

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    Backstep - I agree with you that with them lowering their requirements so much that the department will suffer. I saw a girl there that couldn't have weighed 90 pounds sopping wet with rolls of quarters in her pocket. I don't imagine she'd be doing too well when you put near her body weight in gear and equipment on her and then ask her to perform her duties.

    I'm just hoping the guys on don't think that we're all going to be a bunch of morons. It's tough enough to be a probie coming into a new house, but it'll be even worse if the guys on all think we're a bunch of idiots before we get the chance to prove ourselves.

    VinnieB - Could you tell me a little more about what it's like workin EMS? My biggest concern is job quality, as I haven't heard anything good from the little information I've gotten.

    Thanks guys. Stay safe.
    Just a peon proby in the greatest job in the world; grinning ear to ear.

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    VinnieB, JohnnyIrons- great advice. That's what SeminoleB needs to hear!

    SeminoleB, as Vinnie said, once you prove your ability, the "backdoor" stigma will fade into a lighthearted dig that will rear its ugly head once in a while. Remember, any organization is a political one. That means that the same jagoff veterans who will M*^F*&% you for going in the "backdoor" are the same guys who will ballwash a chief at an Emerald Society function or in some bar in Pearl River for a coveted spot in a busy company or elite unit. LOOK OUT FOR NUMBER 1-YOU! You have the potential to work 20-30 years in the greatest job in the world, and you are letting a short period of ballbreaking stall your decision. Prove your ability, and the ballbreaking will decrease and venetually be forgotten. I am quite sure that many OUTSTANDING brothers got in the "backdoor," although they will be mute on the issue now.

    For those that think EMS is the "backdoor," go hump so mope done 4 flights of stairs in a stairchair in a Bronx or Brooklyn project, and tell me you haven't earned you job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res45cuE View Post
    For those that think EMS is the "backdoor," go hump so mope done 4 flights of stairs in a stairchair in a Bronx or Brooklyn project, and tell me you haven't earned you job.
    Done it many a time while some wothless EMS slug stands to the side and carries the bags It is most definately the backdoor.

    FTM-PTB

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    Well, turns out that fate will be stepping in to make the decision, at least for now, for me. I got the call this morning for the April academy, but I had to turn it down.

    A family member's medical issue is going to have the potential for me to have to spend time back home over the next stretch. Although this is just POTENTIAL, I didn't think it was a good idea for me to accept employment just yet, since missing academy time and not having vacation might make things tough. I did ask to stay in the cycle and could still be up for the July academy, though. I still don't know if I'll take it, but we'll see.

    As for the "backdoor" stigma, it would be just that, a stigma. I actually feel pretty solid about the fact that I did well enough to get hired in the Open Competitive firefighter hiring from the list they're putting together now, 6019. Taking the EMT position would not matter because Promotion will not be available until the next hiring process. So, I really wouldn't be taking the Promotion route, but it would very likely come across looking like I did.

    So, looks like I'm hoping for some bartending employment to pay the bills so I can stop selling bodily fluids. You guys know of anyone looking for some bar help?
    Last edited by SeminoleB; 03-15-2007 at 04:18 PM.
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