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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    FWIW, the NFPA has looked into ~30 firefighter fatailites over the years and produced very detailed investigative reports.

    The CDC/NIOSH unit would be well served to look at how the NFPA has handled those investigations.
    No. You're wrong. Those investigations were only conducted at the behest of the "manufacturers", a secret evil group of characters who sit as somewhat of a "shadow government" at the NFPA. The goal was to exonerate all gear, equipment and apparatus from any fault whatever.


  2. #22
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    I was looking at the timeline and some of those facts are wrong. Like Rob Morrison and Derek Martin dying in a restaurant. If my memory serves me correctly they died fighting a fire at the Gravois Refrigeration Company.

  3. #23
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    I was a bit astonished by some of that second article. Why is it they don't have the authority to enter the scene of any firefighter fatality? What does it really matter what the FD or union thinks? Isn't the whole reason for this program to find out what happened and recommend changes so the fire service as a whole can learn from it and prevent someone else from dying?

    I'm wondering if they shouldn't give the job back to the USFA, give them the authority and require every firefighter fatality to be investigated. Have them put someone on the fireground within hours, instead of weeks. And tell the FDs and locals that don't like it where they can send their complaint and move on with the investigation.

  4. #24
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    What does it really matter what the FD or union thinks?
    Because when/if someone screwed up, they don't want it published for the world to see and families/attornies to find out.

    That would be my guess.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #25
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    I was looking at the timeline and some of those facts are wrong. Like Rob Morrison and Derek Martin dying in a restaurant. If my memory serves me correctly they died fighting a fire at the Gravois Refrigeration Company.

    You are correct.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    In reading the articles about this, it's been said a few times about departments not being willing to cooperate.

    That is sad.

    I cant say I blame them. When the investigation takes place months later, after a building has been knocked down, after FFs have attempted to move on with their lives, how can they possibly do the investigation justice?

    They show a blatant disregard for SOPs, (read the NIOSH report on the Rich Sclafani fire. They wanted the 1st due engine and truck to all go to the rear and enter the basement from there, essentially killing anyone still alive on the 1st floor). They didnt take into account the fact that the roofman and OV actually did go to the rear, and reported the conditions they found. (Somehow, the report managed to disregard this fact, and blamed the company officer for not doing a proper sizeup)

    They manage to put as much fault with the men and department as possible, and as a side note (178 street in the Bronx, for example), at the end, put partial, indirect blame on the jerkoffs who decided to illegally partition the building, which caused the 6 brothers to jump, not lack of training, improper use of PPE, etc, etc.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    I cant say I blame them. When the investigation takes place months later, after a building has been knocked down, after FFs have attempted to move on with their lives, how can they possibly do the investigation justice?

    They show a blatant disregard for SOPs, (read the NIOSH report on the Rich Sclafani fire. They wanted the 1st due engine and truck to all go to the rear and enter the basement from there, essentially killing anyone still alive on the 1st floor). They didnt take into account the fact that the roofman and OV actually did go to the rear, and reported the conditions they found. (Somehow, the report managed to disregard this fact, and blamed the company officer for not doing a proper sizeup)

    They manage to put as much fault with the men and department as possible, and as a side note (178 street in the Bronx, for example), at the end, put partial, indirect blame on the jerkoffs who decided to illegally partition the building, which caused the 6 brothers to jump, not lack of training, improper use of PPE, etc, etc.
    Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns.

    FTM-PTB
    I'd just like to point out that is was that volley chief who was trying to do the right thing, and was overruled by a doctor.

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    FFRED said "Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns."

    Lets the volley bashing begin!!!

    Of course FFRED is wrong but we wont let that get in the way now will we??

    Schmidt was a 17yr veteran with Prince Georges Co. FD. (volley or paid does it really matter?) He held the rank of Capt. He was also a Fire Protection Engineer with 18yrs experience. And apparently he was the only one who was trying to do what was right. Oh and it cost him his job!! How many others would have stood up and taken the hit?? Not many. Most people would have scurried back to their holes and said "Sure boss what ever you want."

    The problem appears to be a program run by a beraucrat (Castillo)who had virtually no knowledge of the kind of incidents her team was investigating. A team staffed mostly by people who had little no experience in fire fighting. And a boss who either didnt care about her most experienced investigator's opinions or was threatened by his greater amount of knowledge. After reading the articles and CDCs own handbook and other paperwork its apparent that Castillo didnt care about through investigations and just wanted the cases off her desk ASAP without ruffleing any feathers. Too bad that thoes kind of investigation are useless to everybody.

    Personaly I hope Schmidt was a volley cause at least he had a spine to stand up for what was right. We all should be thanking him. So if you are reading this Eric Schmidt "THANK YOU for standing up for us and doing what you thought was right."

  10. #30
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hfd326 View Post
    Personaly I hope Schmidt was a volley cause at least he had a spine to stand up for what was right.
    I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this statement.



    nyckftbl, I agree in that their reports are inherently flawed. I still find it sad that they would not get cooperation.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hfd326 View Post
    FFRED said "Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns."

    Lets the volley bashing begin!!!

    Of course FFRED is wrong but we wont let that get in the way now will we??

    Schmidt was a 17yr veteran with Prince Georges Co. FD. (volley or paid does it really matter?) He held the rank of Capt. He was also a Fire Protection Engineer with 18yrs experience. And apparently he was the only one who was trying to do what was right. Oh and it cost him his job!! How many others would have stood up and taken the hit?? Not many. Most people would have scurried back to their holes and said "Sure boss what ever you want."

    The problem appears to be a program run by a beraucrat (Castillo)who had virtually no knowledge of the kind of incidents her team was investigating. A team staffed mostly by people who had little no experience in fire fighting. And a boss who either didnt care about her most experienced investigator's opinions or was threatened by his greater amount of knowledge. After reading the articles and CDCs own handbook and other paperwork its apparent that Castillo didnt care about through investigations and just wanted the cases off her desk ASAP without ruffleing any feathers. Too bad that thoes kind of investigation are useless to everybody.

    Personaly I hope Schmidt was a volley cause at least he had a spine to stand up for what was right. We all should be thanking him. So if you are reading this Eric Schmidt "THANK YOU for standing up for us and doing what you thought was right."

    I'm refering to NIOSH and here is a post I had in relation to the topic NYCKFTLB was refering to and why it essentially is a waste of time to let these classroom clowns investigate a LODD.

    Here is a copy of the response to a letter requesting the expereince (particularly of the firefighting nature) of these NIOSH guys.

    All of the investigators with the NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program (FFFIPP) have been formally trained in specific fire-service courses. In addition, all have either a bachelor's or Master's degree in Occupational Safety and Health or an Engineering discipline. One of the FFFIPP investigators was a volunteer fire fighter for a couple of years.
    In addition to overseeing the FFFIPP here at NIOSH, I am a volunteer fire chief here in the Morgantown, West Virginia area.
    I hope that this provides sufficient information to your request.

    Sincerely,

    Robert E. Koedam M.S.
    Supervisory Safety and Occupational Health Manager
    Chief, Fatality Investigations Team
    Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation Program
    FACE Program
    Surveillance and Field Investigations Branch
    Division of Safety Research/NIOSH


    Now I don't know why anyone would find it sad that anyone wouldn't cooperate with a grossly unqualifed and inexperienced investigations squad who might just write up a BS report that places blame where it clearly doesn't belong and without the proper context as they did with the Fire in ENY on Black Sunday.

    I stand by my position.

    FTM-PTB

  12. #32
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    Tell us, Fred, just who WOULD you cooperate with? Obviously investigators from your FD and your union, but anyone else?

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    MSNBC says...
    In addition, some PASS devices made by at least three manufacturers have had problems over the past decade with water leaking into the electronics or battery compartments
    ....not trying to hijack the debate but can anyone tell me what manufacturers are having trouble and if there is any reading available on it, I may have missed it.
    A vomiting Firefighter is an ugly Firefighter.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightsandsound View Post
    MSNBC says...

    ....not trying to hijack the debate but can anyone tell me what manufacturers are having trouble and if there is any reading available on it, I may have missed it.
    The one i keep hearing about is Survivair aka Surprise Air.

  15. #35
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    yeeeah....that's what I was afraid of..
    A vomiting Firefighter is an ugly Firefighter.

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    Boy, some of you guys are naive. NIOSH is and has been buried in the federal bureaucracy because that is exactly where the right-wing /Republicans want it (and don't bring up Clinton, he was pretty pro-business for a dem). So this goes back to Reagan era and NIOSH wasn't around much before as was OSHA (vintage 1970). I personally know an engineers/scientist who worked for NIOSH in the 70's and was doing leading research on workplace injuries - Reagan was elected and his program was closed down and most funding eliminated. There are a lot of Republican fire fighters - everyone makes there own call in this country - but don't yell and scream about NIOSH this and that - those you elect have it on their agenda to keep OSHA and NIOSH down > less research, investigations, regulation > that's the bottom line.

    And fire service experts conducting investigation - ever read the Worcester cold storage "Board of Inquiry" report from WFD - waste of paper. It takes a lot more than "fire service expertise" to conduct an accurate, unbiased investigation.

  17. #37
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    I'm curious why the IAFF, IAFC, etc. aren't jumping on this and pushing for a better system. Engineers and doctors are fine, but they need to at least have firefighters or people with firefighter experience available, or better yet beside them, as consultants. Let the brainiacs do the math and science and the firefighter inform them on how things work on our end.

    I'm still thinking the USFA is a logical place to house this. If our professional/lobbying organizations are trully interested in our safety they should have already been pushing for change. Hell, even put it on the state fire marshals and give them the funding to do it and do it right. Anythings got to be better than the bureaucratic shuffle that's going on now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Hell, even put it on the state fire marshals
    **shudder**

    Man, don't say that too loud...

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    **shudder**

    Man, don't say that too loud...
    I did stick it in the middle. Perhaps that wasn't obscure enough? I do see your point, though.

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=Bones42;768641]I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this statement.





    Which part? That I hope he a volley? Cause he did what was right and had the facts to back it up. He looks professional in the article.

    Or that he had a spine and did what was right? He lost his job over it when all he had to do was just play along and shuffle the papers. He actualy tried to find the problems and soliutions.

    I agree with Catch 22 that the investigators must have fire fighting experience and that USFA is probably a lot better place for this unit.

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