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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    In reading the articles about this, it's been said a few times about departments not being willing to cooperate.

    That is sad.

    I cant say I blame them. When the investigation takes place months later, after a building has been knocked down, after FFs have attempted to move on with their lives, how can they possibly do the investigation justice?

    They show a blatant disregard for SOPs, (read the NIOSH report on the Rich Sclafani fire. They wanted the 1st due engine and truck to all go to the rear and enter the basement from there, essentially killing anyone still alive on the 1st floor). They didnt take into account the fact that the roofman and OV actually did go to the rear, and reported the conditions they found. (Somehow, the report managed to disregard this fact, and blamed the company officer for not doing a proper sizeup)

    They manage to put as much fault with the men and department as possible, and as a side note (178 street in the Bronx, for example), at the end, put partial, indirect blame on the jerkoffs who decided to illegally partition the building, which caused the 6 brothers to jump, not lack of training, improper use of PPE, etc, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    I cant say I blame them. When the investigation takes place months later, after a building has been knocked down, after FFs have attempted to move on with their lives, how can they possibly do the investigation justice?

    They show a blatant disregard for SOPs, (read the NIOSH report on the Rich Sclafani fire. They wanted the 1st due engine and truck to all go to the rear and enter the basement from there, essentially killing anyone still alive on the 1st floor). They didnt take into account the fact that the roofman and OV actually did go to the rear, and reported the conditions they found. (Somehow, the report managed to disregard this fact, and blamed the company officer for not doing a proper sizeup)

    They manage to put as much fault with the men and department as possible, and as a side note (178 street in the Bronx, for example), at the end, put partial, indirect blame on the jerkoffs who decided to illegally partition the building, which caused the 6 brothers to jump, not lack of training, improper use of PPE, etc, etc.
    Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns.

    FTM-PTB
    I'd just like to point out that is was that volley chief who was trying to do the right thing, and was overruled by a doctor.

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    FFRED said "Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns."

    Lets the volley bashing begin!!!

    Of course FFRED is wrong but we wont let that get in the way now will we??

    Schmidt was a 17yr veteran with Prince Georges Co. FD. (volley or paid does it really matter?) He held the rank of Capt. He was also a Fire Protection Engineer with 18yrs experience. And apparently he was the only one who was trying to do what was right. Oh and it cost him his job!! How many others would have stood up and taken the hit?? Not many. Most people would have scurried back to their holes and said "Sure boss what ever you want."

    The problem appears to be a program run by a beraucrat (Castillo)who had virtually no knowledge of the kind of incidents her team was investigating. A team staffed mostly by people who had little no experience in fire fighting. And a boss who either didnt care about her most experienced investigator's opinions or was threatened by his greater amount of knowledge. After reading the articles and CDCs own handbook and other paperwork its apparent that Castillo didnt care about through investigations and just wanted the cases off her desk ASAP without ruffleing any feathers. Too bad that thoes kind of investigation are useless to everybody.

    Personaly I hope Schmidt was a volley cause at least he had a spine to stand up for what was right. We all should be thanking him. So if you are reading this Eric Schmidt "THANK YOU for standing up for us and doing what you thought was right."

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    Quote Originally Posted by hfd326 View Post
    Personaly I hope Schmidt was a volley cause at least he had a spine to stand up for what was right.
    I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this statement.



    nyckftbl, I agree in that their reports are inherently flawed. I still find it sad that they would not get cooperation.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hfd326 View Post
    FFRED said "Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns."

    Lets the volley bashing begin!!!

    Of course FFRED is wrong but we wont let that get in the way now will we??

    Schmidt was a 17yr veteran with Prince Georges Co. FD. (volley or paid does it really matter?) He held the rank of Capt. He was also a Fire Protection Engineer with 18yrs experience. And apparently he was the only one who was trying to do what was right. Oh and it cost him his job!! How many others would have stood up and taken the hit?? Not many. Most people would have scurried back to their holes and said "Sure boss what ever you want."

    The problem appears to be a program run by a beraucrat (Castillo)who had virtually no knowledge of the kind of incidents her team was investigating. A team staffed mostly by people who had little no experience in fire fighting. And a boss who either didnt care about her most experienced investigator's opinions or was threatened by his greater amount of knowledge. After reading the articles and CDCs own handbook and other paperwork its apparent that Castillo didnt care about through investigations and just wanted the cases off her desk ASAP without ruffleing any feathers. Too bad that thoes kind of investigation are useless to everybody.

    Personaly I hope Schmidt was a volley cause at least he had a spine to stand up for what was right. We all should be thanking him. So if you are reading this Eric Schmidt "THANK YOU for standing up for us and doing what you thought was right."

    I'm refering to NIOSH and here is a post I had in relation to the topic NYCKFTLB was refering to and why it essentially is a waste of time to let these classroom clowns investigate a LODD.

    Here is a copy of the response to a letter requesting the expereince (particularly of the firefighting nature) of these NIOSH guys.

    All of the investigators with the NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program (FFFIPP) have been formally trained in specific fire-service courses. In addition, all have either a bachelor's or Master's degree in Occupational Safety and Health or an Engineering discipline. One of the FFFIPP investigators was a volunteer fire fighter for a couple of years.
    In addition to overseeing the FFFIPP here at NIOSH, I am a volunteer fire chief here in the Morgantown, West Virginia area.
    I hope that this provides sufficient information to your request.

    Sincerely,

    Robert E. Koedam M.S.
    Supervisory Safety and Occupational Health Manager
    Chief, Fatality Investigations Team
    Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation Program
    FACE Program
    Surveillance and Field Investigations Branch
    Division of Safety Research/NIOSH


    Now I don't know why anyone would find it sad that anyone wouldn't cooperate with a grossly unqualifed and inexperienced investigations squad who might just write up a BS report that places blame where it clearly doesn't belong and without the proper context as they did with the Fire in ENY on Black Sunday.

    I stand by my position.

    FTM-PTB

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    Tell us, Fred, just who WOULD you cooperate with? Obviously investigators from your FD and your union, but anyone else?

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    MSNBC says...
    In addition, some PASS devices made by at least three manufacturers have had problems over the past decade with water leaking into the electronics or battery compartments
    ....not trying to hijack the debate but can anyone tell me what manufacturers are having trouble and if there is any reading available on it, I may have missed it.
    A vomiting Firefighter is an ugly Firefighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lightsandsound View Post
    MSNBC says...

    ....not trying to hijack the debate but can anyone tell me what manufacturers are having trouble and if there is any reading available on it, I may have missed it.
    The one i keep hearing about is Survivair aka Surprise Air.

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    yeeeah....that's what I was afraid of..
    A vomiting Firefighter is an ugly Firefighter.

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    Boy, some of you guys are naive. NIOSH is and has been buried in the federal bureaucracy because that is exactly where the right-wing /Republicans want it (and don't bring up Clinton, he was pretty pro-business for a dem). So this goes back to Reagan era and NIOSH wasn't around much before as was OSHA (vintage 1970). I personally know an engineers/scientist who worked for NIOSH in the 70's and was doing leading research on workplace injuries - Reagan was elected and his program was closed down and most funding eliminated. There are a lot of Republican fire fighters - everyone makes there own call in this country - but don't yell and scream about NIOSH this and that - those you elect have it on their agenda to keep OSHA and NIOSH down > less research, investigations, regulation > that's the bottom line.

    And fire service experts conducting investigation - ever read the Worcester cold storage "Board of Inquiry" report from WFD - waste of paper. It takes a lot more than "fire service expertise" to conduct an accurate, unbiased investigation.

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    I'm curious why the IAFF, IAFC, etc. aren't jumping on this and pushing for a better system. Engineers and doctors are fine, but they need to at least have firefighters or people with firefighter experience available, or better yet beside them, as consultants. Let the brainiacs do the math and science and the firefighter inform them on how things work on our end.

    I'm still thinking the USFA is a logical place to house this. If our professional/lobbying organizations are trully interested in our safety they should have already been pushing for change. Hell, even put it on the state fire marshals and give them the funding to do it and do it right. Anythings got to be better than the bureaucratic shuffle that's going on now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Hell, even put it on the state fire marshals
    **shudder**

    Man, don't say that too loud...

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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    **shudder**

    Man, don't say that too loud...
    I did stick it in the middle. Perhaps that wasn't obscure enough? I do see your point, though.

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    [QUOTE=Bones42;768641]I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this statement.





    Which part? That I hope he a volley? Cause he did what was right and had the facts to back it up. He looks professional in the article.

    Or that he had a spine and did what was right? He lost his job over it when all he had to do was just play along and shuffle the papers. He actualy tried to find the problems and soliutions.

    I agree with Catch 22 that the investigators must have fire fighting experience and that USFA is probably a lot better place for this unit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I'm refering to NIOSH and here is a post I had in relation to the topic NYCKFTLB was refering to and why it essentially is a waste of time to let these classroom clowns investigate a LODD.

    Here is a copy of the response to a letter requesting the expereince (particularly of the firefighting nature) of these NIOSH guys.

    All of the investigators with the NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program (FFFIPP) have been formally trained in specific fire-service courses. In addition, all have either a bachelor's or Master's degree in Occupational Safety and Health or an Engineering discipline. One of the FFFIPP investigators was a volunteer fire fighter for a couple of years.
    In addition to overseeing the FFFIPP here at NIOSH, I am a volunteer fire chief here in the Morgantown, West Virginia area.
    I hope that this provides sufficient information to your request.

    Sincerely,

    Robert E. Koedam M.S.
    Supervisory Safety and Occupational Health Manager
    Chief, Fatality Investigations Team
    Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation Program
    FACE Program
    Surveillance and Field Investigations Branch
    Division of Safety Research/NIOSH


    Now I don't know why anyone would find it sad that anyone wouldn't cooperate with a grossly unqualifed and inexperienced investigations squad who might just write up a BS report that places blame where it clearly doesn't belong and without the proper context as they did with the Fire in ENY on Black Sunday.

    I stand by my position.

    FTM-PTB
    No FFFRED you called Schmidt a "volly chief" from "Upperstraw Bottom USA" and a "clown". You also strongly implied that he doesn't understand "operational procedures, and assigned duties, and responsibilities". As for NIOSH reports being usless after reading their handbook I can see why that would be true. Let alone how they actual seem to run investigations, which is even worse. I sounds like most of the dont have fire experience, and as I said earlier the investigators NEED fire fighting experience.

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    hfd326, your statement made it seem like he only had a spine because he was a volunteer. Not a problem, just a mis-read.

    IMO, part of these peoples investigation should (at least) require some time to actually learn the department's SOP's so they can truly judge whether they were followed. They should not be basing an attack on "what they would have done".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default Experience

    Experience is the key for all of the players involved in any investigation. The NTSB's "Go Team", as previously stated, has experience in every dicipline of aviation. The LODD Investigation Teams should have the same experience, Career or Volly does not matter, it is the proper experience. Until someone thinks it is needed, namely the people formulating the budgets, nothing major will happen.

    Mr. Schmidt, is more than qualified to handle what he was expected to handle. He had experience in several of the diciplines of the Fire Service. If his team had a few others on it, i.e: an ATF Fire Investigator, CFI Fire Investigator from the Fire Service, an FBI Investigator, and maybe a Forensics Specialist, he would have had a crack team to handle the job. He didn't have these people!

    I know many Volunteers with more experience than some retired Career Guys have. I also know the opposite to be true. We are all doing the same job, Career, Part timer, or Volly, no difference in my book. All are brothers and sisters of the Fire Service.

    Stay safe and grow old!

    Reired 24 years of career service, now a Volly Chief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeten1049 View Post
    Experience is the key for all of the players involved in any investigation. The NTSB's "Go Team", as previously stated, has experience in every dicipline of aviation. The LODD Investigation Teams should have the same experience, Career or Volly does not matter, it is the proper experience. Until someone thinks it is needed, namely the people formulating the budgets, nothing major will happen.

    Mr. Schmidt, is more than qualified to handle what he was expected to handle. He had experience in several of the diciplines of the Fire Service. If his team had a few others on it, i.e: an ATF Fire Investigator, CFI Fire Investigator from the Fire Service, an FBI Investigator, and maybe a Forensics Specialist, he would have had a crack team to handle the job. He didn't have these people!

    I know many Volunteers with more experience than some retired Career Guys have. I also know the opposite to be true. We are all doing the same job, Career, Part timer, or Volly, no difference in my book. All are brothers and sisters of the Fire Service.

    Stay safe and grow old!

    Reired 24 years of career service, now a Volly Chief.
    First of all, you NEVER want an FBI agent to do anything anywhere near any fire scene. That is a nightmare.

    The ATF,on the other hand, is a good thought. They are, by far, the easiest federal law enforcement agency to work with. Their CFI's are well schooled in fire and basically have to complete a Master's level course of training, as well as investigate 100 fires, before they get their designation. They have a research facility, a forensics laboratory and a ton of support personnel that would enable them to be a great asset to this type of investigation.

    At the present time, this type of GO team does not exist at a federal level. NIOSH doesn't run right out the door when they get a job like this. And there is probably a reason for it.

    If a plane crashes, there is little dispute over jurisdiction. The feds own it. But in a FF LODD, the jurisdiction will, most times, remain at the local level. The responsibility for investigating traumatic deaths and the origin and cause of fires rests clearly, with some exceptions, is most efficiently dealt with as a state investigation.

    When I investigated LODD's, my responsibilities were to complete an investigation to accurately determine the facts of the case to find out if I had any criminal activity. That included securing all evidence and information to protect the deceased FF's family for the PSOB program. If the fire had been intentionally set, the homicide would, in almost all cases, be prosecuted at the state level. The collateral result, at least in my agency, would be a thoroughly documented and investigated LODD. Of course, in my agency we would work hand-in-hand with the people investigating the LODD. What's interesting is that I never had anyone from a federal agency assist in the investigations.

    NJ has an interesting approach. Under state law, there is a requirement for the state to investigate every LOD serious injury and every LODD. They approach the invest as a team effort. There are personnel from the Division of Fire Safety (dealing with fire protection issues), the Department of Labor (dealing with occupational safety issues) and the Department of Health (dealing with respiratory protection issues). Their collaboration brings personnel well schooled in all facets of the investigation.

    While the people in the field are well-schooled, the reports they turn out are often pieces of junk. They start out good, but then are "reviewed" and "edited" by people at the upper reaches of the respective departments. Revisions that are more influenced by politics are made. Reports are delayed-sometimes for years-by this endless review process.

    The GO team concept is a good idea. But my guess is that the Feds would somehow screw it up.

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    Default The "Go Team" Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    First of all, you NEVER want an FBI agent to do anything anywhere near any fire scene. That is a nightmare.

    The ATF,on the other hand, is a good thought. They are, by far, the easiest federal law enforcement agency to work with. Their CFI's are well schooled in fire and basically have to complete a Master's level course of training, as well as investigate 100 fires, before they get their designation. They have a research facility, a forensics laboratory and a ton of support personnel that would enable them to be a great asset to this type of investigation.

    At the present time, this type of GO team does not exist at a federal level. NIOSH doesn't run right out the door when they get a job like this. And there is probably a reason for it.

    If a plane crashes, there is little dispute over jurisdiction. The feds own it. But in a FF LODD, the jurisdiction will, most times, remain at the local level. The responsibility for investigating traumatic deaths and the origin and cause of fires rests clearly, with some exceptions, is most efficiently dealt with as a state investigation.

    When I investigated LODD's, my responsibilities were to complete an investigation to accurately determine the facts of the case to find out if I had any criminal activity. That included securing all evidence and information to protect the deceased FF's family for the PSOB program. If the fire had been intentionally set, the homicide would, in almost all cases, be prosecuted at the state level. The collateral result, at least in my agency, would be a thoroughly documented and investigated LODD. Of course, in my agency we would work hand-in-hand with the people investigating the LODD. What's interesting is that I never had anyone from a federal agency assist in the investigations.

    NJ has an interesting approach. Under state law, there is a requirement for the state to investigate every LOD serious injury and every LODD. They approach the invest as a team effort. There are personnel from the Division of Fire Safety (dealing with fire protection issues), the Department of Labor (dealing with occupational safety issues) and the Department of Health (dealing with respiratory protection issues). Their collaboration brings personnel well schooled in all facets of the investigation.

    While the people in the field are well-schooled, the reports they turn out are often pieces of junk. They start out good, but then are "reviewed" and "edited" by people at the upper reaches of the respective departments. Revisions that are more influenced by politics are made. Reports are delayed-sometimes for years-by this endless review process.

    The GO team concept is a good idea. But my guess is that the Feds would somehow screw it up.
    There are State Mandates requiring these types of situations shall be investigated. This is normally done at the State level through the Fire Marshal’s Office or Designee. MABAS, Mutual Aid Box Alarm System, is going Nation wide. Investigators are available to a stricken department this way. There are many ways to fulfill this Investigation Team. There needs to be someone of desire at the higher levels to mandate of oversee the “Clearing House” i.e. NIFRS.

    Qualified people, available at a moments notice, with labs to back them up. Using the FBI or ATF.

    I have worked with FBI Investigators, Forensics Experts, and ATF Investigators on Fatal Fire Investigation Scenes. They did not take over. They came in and asked what I needed. Using NIMS, this set up worked.

    No reports were ever allowed to be "Edited", since they are Legal Reports, only addendums may be attached.

    All investigations are concluded with Legal Documents to close the investigations. Any other type of Document is considered nothing more than a reference to draw toward the ending Legal Document.

    Stay Safe and Grow Old!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeten1049 View Post
    There are State Mandates requiring these types of situations shall be investigated. This is normally done at the State level through the Fire Marshal’s Office or Designee. MABAS, Mutual Aid Box Alarm System, is going Nation wide. Investigators are available to a stricken department this way. There are many ways to fulfill this Investigation Team. There needs to be someone of desire at the higher levels to mandate of oversee the “Clearing House” i.e. NIFRS.

    Qualified people, available at a moments notice, with labs to back them up. Using the FBI or ATF.

    I have worked with FBI Investigators, Forensics Experts, and ATF Investigators on Fatal Fire Investigation Scenes. They did not take over. They came in and asked what I needed. Using NIMS, this set up worked.

    No reports were ever allowed to be "Edited", since they are Legal Reports, only addendums may be attached.

    All investigations are concluded with Legal Documents to close the investigations. Any other type of Document is considered nothing more than a reference to draw toward the ending Legal Document.

    Stay Safe and Grow Old!
    I never said the FBI would come in and take over. It goes way beyond that. If you had a good experience with them, you were lucky. I personally wouldn't expend one second's worth of energy to help any of them, regardless of the circumstances. The ATF is exactly the opposite of what you find with the FBI.

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    Default Schmidt

    To set the record straight, Schmidt started as a volunteer in PG - I helped to train him. He went on to become a career firefighter, rising to the rank of captain. Served in both operations & prevention. Let's try not to bash a guy that sacrificed much to shed light on something that will help all firefighters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeten1049 View Post
    I know many Volunteers with more experience than some retired Career Guys have. I also know the opposite to be true. We are all doing the same job, Career, Part timer, or Volly, no difference in my book. All are brothers and sisters of the Fire Service.
    Jeeten1049,

    Thanks for being a voice of reason in this discussion. As I like to say "Not all Professional Firefighters are Career Firefighters, and not all Career Firefighters are Professional Firefighters." Think about it, guys and gals.
    Last edited by Lifeguard911; 02-10-2007 at 04:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeguard911 View Post
    Think about, guys and gals.


    I prefer to only think about girls, thank you =)

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    ooops... sorry about that. The "it" has been added!

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