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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I'm refering to NIOSH and here is a post I had in relation to the topic NYCKFTLB was refering to and why it essentially is a waste of time to let these classroom clowns investigate a LODD.

    Here is a copy of the response to a letter requesting the expereince (particularly of the firefighting nature) of these NIOSH guys.

    All of the investigators with the NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program (FFFIPP) have been formally trained in specific fire-service courses. In addition, all have either a bachelor's or Master's degree in Occupational Safety and Health or an Engineering discipline. One of the FFFIPP investigators was a volunteer fire fighter for a couple of years.
    In addition to overseeing the FFFIPP here at NIOSH, I am a volunteer fire chief here in the Morgantown, West Virginia area.
    I hope that this provides sufficient information to your request.

    Sincerely,

    Robert E. Koedam M.S.
    Supervisory Safety and Occupational Health Manager
    Chief, Fatality Investigations Team
    Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation Program
    FACE Program
    Surveillance and Field Investigations Branch
    Division of Safety Research/NIOSH


    Now I don't know why anyone would find it sad that anyone wouldn't cooperate with a grossly unqualifed and inexperienced investigations squad who might just write up a BS report that places blame where it clearly doesn't belong and without the proper context as they did with the Fire in ENY on Black Sunday.

    I stand by my position.

    FTM-PTB
    No FFFRED you called Schmidt a "volly chief" from "Upperstraw Bottom USA" and a "clown". You also strongly implied that he doesn't understand "operational procedures, and assigned duties, and responsibilities". As for NIOSH reports being usless after reading their handbook I can see why that would be true. Let alone how they actual seem to run investigations, which is even worse. I sounds like most of the dont have fire experience, and as I said earlier the investigators NEED fire fighting experience.


  2. #42
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    hfd326, your statement made it seem like he only had a spine because he was a volunteer. Not a problem, just a mis-read.

    IMO, part of these peoples investigation should (at least) require some time to actually learn the department's SOP's so they can truly judge whether they were followed. They should not be basing an attack on "what they would have done".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  3. #43
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    Default Experience

    Experience is the key for all of the players involved in any investigation. The NTSB's "Go Team", as previously stated, has experience in every dicipline of aviation. The LODD Investigation Teams should have the same experience, Career or Volly does not matter, it is the proper experience. Until someone thinks it is needed, namely the people formulating the budgets, nothing major will happen.

    Mr. Schmidt, is more than qualified to handle what he was expected to handle. He had experience in several of the diciplines of the Fire Service. If his team had a few others on it, i.e: an ATF Fire Investigator, CFI Fire Investigator from the Fire Service, an FBI Investigator, and maybe a Forensics Specialist, he would have had a crack team to handle the job. He didn't have these people!

    I know many Volunteers with more experience than some retired Career Guys have. I also know the opposite to be true. We are all doing the same job, Career, Part timer, or Volly, no difference in my book. All are brothers and sisters of the Fire Service.

    Stay safe and grow old!

    Reired 24 years of career service, now a Volly Chief.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeten1049 View Post
    Experience is the key for all of the players involved in any investigation. The NTSB's "Go Team", as previously stated, has experience in every dicipline of aviation. The LODD Investigation Teams should have the same experience, Career or Volly does not matter, it is the proper experience. Until someone thinks it is needed, namely the people formulating the budgets, nothing major will happen.

    Mr. Schmidt, is more than qualified to handle what he was expected to handle. He had experience in several of the diciplines of the Fire Service. If his team had a few others on it, i.e: an ATF Fire Investigator, CFI Fire Investigator from the Fire Service, an FBI Investigator, and maybe a Forensics Specialist, he would have had a crack team to handle the job. He didn't have these people!

    I know many Volunteers with more experience than some retired Career Guys have. I also know the opposite to be true. We are all doing the same job, Career, Part timer, or Volly, no difference in my book. All are brothers and sisters of the Fire Service.

    Stay safe and grow old!

    Reired 24 years of career service, now a Volly Chief.
    First of all, you NEVER want an FBI agent to do anything anywhere near any fire scene. That is a nightmare.

    The ATF,on the other hand, is a good thought. They are, by far, the easiest federal law enforcement agency to work with. Their CFI's are well schooled in fire and basically have to complete a Master's level course of training, as well as investigate 100 fires, before they get their designation. They have a research facility, a forensics laboratory and a ton of support personnel that would enable them to be a great asset to this type of investigation.

    At the present time, this type of GO team does not exist at a federal level. NIOSH doesn't run right out the door when they get a job like this. And there is probably a reason for it.

    If a plane crashes, there is little dispute over jurisdiction. The feds own it. But in a FF LODD, the jurisdiction will, most times, remain at the local level. The responsibility for investigating traumatic deaths and the origin and cause of fires rests clearly, with some exceptions, is most efficiently dealt with as a state investigation.

    When I investigated LODD's, my responsibilities were to complete an investigation to accurately determine the facts of the case to find out if I had any criminal activity. That included securing all evidence and information to protect the deceased FF's family for the PSOB program. If the fire had been intentionally set, the homicide would, in almost all cases, be prosecuted at the state level. The collateral result, at least in my agency, would be a thoroughly documented and investigated LODD. Of course, in my agency we would work hand-in-hand with the people investigating the LODD. What's interesting is that I never had anyone from a federal agency assist in the investigations.

    NJ has an interesting approach. Under state law, there is a requirement for the state to investigate every LOD serious injury and every LODD. They approach the invest as a team effort. There are personnel from the Division of Fire Safety (dealing with fire protection issues), the Department of Labor (dealing with occupational safety issues) and the Department of Health (dealing with respiratory protection issues). Their collaboration brings personnel well schooled in all facets of the investigation.

    While the people in the field are well-schooled, the reports they turn out are often pieces of junk. They start out good, but then are "reviewed" and "edited" by people at the upper reaches of the respective departments. Revisions that are more influenced by politics are made. Reports are delayed-sometimes for years-by this endless review process.

    The GO team concept is a good idea. But my guess is that the Feds would somehow screw it up.

  5. #45
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    Default The "Go Team" Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    First of all, you NEVER want an FBI agent to do anything anywhere near any fire scene. That is a nightmare.

    The ATF,on the other hand, is a good thought. They are, by far, the easiest federal law enforcement agency to work with. Their CFI's are well schooled in fire and basically have to complete a Master's level course of training, as well as investigate 100 fires, before they get their designation. They have a research facility, a forensics laboratory and a ton of support personnel that would enable them to be a great asset to this type of investigation.

    At the present time, this type of GO team does not exist at a federal level. NIOSH doesn't run right out the door when they get a job like this. And there is probably a reason for it.

    If a plane crashes, there is little dispute over jurisdiction. The feds own it. But in a FF LODD, the jurisdiction will, most times, remain at the local level. The responsibility for investigating traumatic deaths and the origin and cause of fires rests clearly, with some exceptions, is most efficiently dealt with as a state investigation.

    When I investigated LODD's, my responsibilities were to complete an investigation to accurately determine the facts of the case to find out if I had any criminal activity. That included securing all evidence and information to protect the deceased FF's family for the PSOB program. If the fire had been intentionally set, the homicide would, in almost all cases, be prosecuted at the state level. The collateral result, at least in my agency, would be a thoroughly documented and investigated LODD. Of course, in my agency we would work hand-in-hand with the people investigating the LODD. What's interesting is that I never had anyone from a federal agency assist in the investigations.

    NJ has an interesting approach. Under state law, there is a requirement for the state to investigate every LOD serious injury and every LODD. They approach the invest as a team effort. There are personnel from the Division of Fire Safety (dealing with fire protection issues), the Department of Labor (dealing with occupational safety issues) and the Department of Health (dealing with respiratory protection issues). Their collaboration brings personnel well schooled in all facets of the investigation.

    While the people in the field are well-schooled, the reports they turn out are often pieces of junk. They start out good, but then are "reviewed" and "edited" by people at the upper reaches of the respective departments. Revisions that are more influenced by politics are made. Reports are delayed-sometimes for years-by this endless review process.

    The GO team concept is a good idea. But my guess is that the Feds would somehow screw it up.
    There are State Mandates requiring these types of situations shall be investigated. This is normally done at the State level through the Fire Marshal’s Office or Designee. MABAS, Mutual Aid Box Alarm System, is going Nation wide. Investigators are available to a stricken department this way. There are many ways to fulfill this Investigation Team. There needs to be someone of desire at the higher levels to mandate of oversee the “Clearing House” i.e. NIFRS.

    Qualified people, available at a moments notice, with labs to back them up. Using the FBI or ATF.

    I have worked with FBI Investigators, Forensics Experts, and ATF Investigators on Fatal Fire Investigation Scenes. They did not take over. They came in and asked what I needed. Using NIMS, this set up worked.

    No reports were ever allowed to be "Edited", since they are Legal Reports, only addendums may be attached.

    All investigations are concluded with Legal Documents to close the investigations. Any other type of Document is considered nothing more than a reference to draw toward the ending Legal Document.

    Stay Safe and Grow Old!

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeten1049 View Post
    There are State Mandates requiring these types of situations shall be investigated. This is normally done at the State level through the Fire Marshal’s Office or Designee. MABAS, Mutual Aid Box Alarm System, is going Nation wide. Investigators are available to a stricken department this way. There are many ways to fulfill this Investigation Team. There needs to be someone of desire at the higher levels to mandate of oversee the “Clearing House” i.e. NIFRS.

    Qualified people, available at a moments notice, with labs to back them up. Using the FBI or ATF.

    I have worked with FBI Investigators, Forensics Experts, and ATF Investigators on Fatal Fire Investigation Scenes. They did not take over. They came in and asked what I needed. Using NIMS, this set up worked.

    No reports were ever allowed to be "Edited", since they are Legal Reports, only addendums may be attached.

    All investigations are concluded with Legal Documents to close the investigations. Any other type of Document is considered nothing more than a reference to draw toward the ending Legal Document.

    Stay Safe and Grow Old!
    I never said the FBI would come in and take over. It goes way beyond that. If you had a good experience with them, you were lucky. I personally wouldn't expend one second's worth of energy to help any of them, regardless of the circumstances. The ATF is exactly the opposite of what you find with the FBI.

  7. #47
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    Default Schmidt

    To set the record straight, Schmidt started as a volunteer in PG - I helped to train him. He went on to become a career firefighter, rising to the rank of captain. Served in both operations & prevention. Let's try not to bash a guy that sacrificed much to shed light on something that will help all firefighters.

  8. #48
    Forum Member Lifeguard911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeten1049 View Post
    I know many Volunteers with more experience than some retired Career Guys have. I also know the opposite to be true. We are all doing the same job, Career, Part timer, or Volly, no difference in my book. All are brothers and sisters of the Fire Service.
    Jeeten1049,

    Thanks for being a voice of reason in this discussion. As I like to say "Not all Professional Firefighters are Career Firefighters, and not all Career Firefighters are Professional Firefighters." Think about it, guys and gals.
    Last edited by Lifeguard911; 02-10-2007 at 03:38 PM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeguard911 View Post
    Think about, guys and gals.


    I prefer to only think about girls, thank you =)

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    ooops... sorry about that. The "it" has been added!

  11. #51
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    Cool Scary.....

    Just forwarded the link to our Deputy Chief of my Career Department...... Since the PASS it showed them take apart is the exact type that we use here.

    Now onto another issue I have seen here...... Why is there such a Vollie/Career battle that occurs here.

    Part of being a "Professional" is being able to listen to another persons opinions and respect their opinion...... If you don't agree then that is your right, but to criticize somebody for their opinion is ridiculous and I stopped doing that in Elementary School.

    So how about people like myself I am a full-time Husband and Dad...... I am a Career Engineer for a locally well respected Department, a Paid-Call for a very large Department and the newest member of a Volunteer Department (to help train the Vollies and be able to respond to emergencies....... the whole extra experience line of thinking and lead by example)? A "Mutt" that maybe..... and that's your opinion. My family and the people I serve don't agree with you, so that makes you the minority............. hhmmmmm

    I challenge those that prefer to "bash" Vollies and ask them how much energy is spent "bashing" and how much energy is spent bringing them up to a standard they feel is acceptable.

    "Professional" isn't just a person who gets a paycheck......... It's more than that, it's how we live our lives as well....... Remember, we represent the job 24/7.

    For those Vollie Bashers who work Career and lucked-out on getting hired on a Department the first few times they tested........ You are the rareity, not the Volunteers. They (we've) been around long before you lucky few have been around. I'm not going to be ignorant and say that all Volunteer Departments run like they should but if you don't like how they run...... then help 'em. Actions speak louder than words.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by hfd326 View Post
    No FFFRED you called Schmidt a "volly chief" from "Upperstraw Bottom USA" and a "clown". You also strongly implied that he doesn't understand "operational procedures, and assigned duties, and responsibilities". As for NIOSH reports being usless after reading their handbook I can see why that would be true. Let alone how they actual seem to run investigations, which is even worse. I sounds like most of the dont have fire experience, and as I said earlier the investigators NEED fire fighting experience.

    No read again guy, I wasn't refering to that, I was refering to a different post. Since you lack adequate reading comprehension and brought this guy Schmidt up in conversation, where did he work?(and by that, I mean earn a living to support his family, not volly) and how many years did he spend in whatever ranks he held and in what companies?

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Tell us, Fred, just who WOULD you cooperate with? Obviously investigators from your FD and your union, but anyone else?
    Anyone who my Department and Union view as competent and qualifed to pass judgement on any particular subject matter. Thats who.

    As of yet, I haven't seen proof that these buearcrats meet that standard.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-11-2007 at 05:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Anyone who my Department and Union view as competant and qualifed to pass judgement on any particular subject matter. Thats who.

    As of yet, I haven't seen proof that these buearcrats meet that standard.

    FTM-PTB
    Judging from your past posts, that would be an investigation team made up only of members from your department who are union members, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Judging from your past posts, that would be an investigation team made up only of members from your department who are union members, correct?
    My posts are more than clear enough.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    My posts are more than clear enough.

    FTM-PTB
    Exactly!!!

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    No read again guy, I wasn't refering to that, I was refering to a different post. Since you lack adequate reading comprehension and brought this guy Schmidt up in conversation, where did he work?(and by that, I mean earn a living to support his family, not volly) and how many years did he spend in whatever ranks he held and in what companies?

    FTM-PTB
    FFFred.. the answer is here... posted by Grit76

    To set the record straight, Schmidt started as a volunteer in PG - I helped to train him. He went on to become a career firefighter, rising to the rank of captain. Served in both operations & prevention. Let's try not to bash a guy that sacrificed much to shed light on something that will help all firefighters.
    What was that comment on reading comprehension?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    FFFred.. the answer is here... posted by Grit76

    What was that comment on reading comprehension?
    Here we go, my orginal response to this guy hfd326:
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    No read again guy, I wasn't refering to that, I was refering to a different post. Since you lack adequate reading comprehension and brought this guy Schmidt up in conversation, where did he work?(and by that, I mean earn a living to support his family, not volly) and how many years did he spend in whatever ranks he held and in what companies?
    How does your reply answer my question? I don't know where he worked(we know vaugely where he vollied), what companies he served in and for how many years in such ranks, how much work he saw...etc. furthermore how are promotions done in his dept? Are they civil service or are they based on patronage and azz-kissing as much of the US and vollies depts are handled?

    Once again for the slow guys, Because he brought it up, I would want to know Dept, companies and what type of work he has seen, Years in ranks..etc. Furthermore my comments that this dope hfd326 was refering to was in reference to another post on this thread in regards to a similar but different subject matter altogether.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-12-2007 at 11:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Exactly!!!
    Exactly what?, are we in agrement?

    FTM-PTB

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    Default foolish and looking to up-grade?

    Quote Originally Posted by firehat87 View Post
    You guys have that right, but if you think NIOSH reports are bad you ought to try reading Texas State Fire Marshall's Office reports. Yikes!

    This is a very scary article and angers me a great deal. An added positive is tha it rails on Surpriseair pretty hard, and I truly hope no department is ever foolish enough to purchase their products again. Most intriguing was how an epidemioligist specializing in child labor was supervising a fire protection engineer who also happened to be a 20 yr veteran and a retired captain and that she had the gall to tell him he didn't understand what was relevant!
    The past few weeks have brought alot of info about scba's and pass devices in general,we currently have Survivair panther which the department purchased in 2001,and until we got this info on our packs and the problem with our pass devices we didn't realize how wide spread this is. We have had problems with water getting in our pass we thought it was just a bad battery.

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