PASS Alarm Investigation

[Nano1575]

One thing I've seen is that the PASS's sound can too easily be masked by a building's fire alarm system. Especially Wheelock MTs and *** (that is the model AS plural, not the slang term for your rear), which have a sound very similar to the alarm in the clip, without the lower pitched blast and the brief pause. Also many smoke detectors have a similar sound. And of course they could be masked by hoses, the fire itself, etc.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Exactly what?, are we in agrement?

FTM-PTB

We would be in agreement that we both know who it is you would cooperate with.

[mikeyboy411]

Originally posted by stwfire44
The past few weeks have brought alot of info about scba's and pass devices in general,we currently have Survivair panther which the department purchased in 2001,and until we got this info on our packs and the problem with our pass devices we didn't realize how wide spread this is. We have had problems with water getting in our pass we thought it was just a bad battery.

Stwfire44,
Have you been able to confirm that these are the PASS Devices for the Panthers? I talked to my Deputy Chief yesterday and we haven't been able to find out which models the bad PASS is used on. We also bought our BAs around the same time it seems your Department did.

What Departments were contacted by Survivair regarding the bad PASS?

[stwfire44]

Stwfire44,
Have you been able to confirm that these are the PASS Devices for the Panthers? I talked to my Deputy Chief yesterday and we haven't been able to find out which models the bad PASS is used on. We also bought our BAs around the same time it seems your Department did.

What Departments were contacted by Survivair regarding the bad PASS?

Mikeyboy,
the model we have at stillwater fire is the survivair (panther ) all the mfg date on the compass pass is 2000 to 2001. It seem that if we allow our pass device dry out for couple days the pass devices start to work? Dallas fire has been using hair dryers to get the job done.

[hfd326]

Here we go, my orginal response to this guy hfd326:


How does your reply answer my question? I don't know where he worked(we know vaugely where he vollied), what companies he served in and for how many years in such ranks, how much work he saw...etc. furthermore how are promotions done in his dept? Are they civil service or are they based on patronage and azz-kissing as much of the US and vollies depts are handled?

Once again for the slow guys, Because he brought it up, I would want to know Dept, companies and what type of work he has seen, Years in ranks..etc. Furthermore my comments that this dope hfd326 was refering to was in reference to another post on this thread in regards to a similar but different subject matter altogether.

FTM-PTB

Fred obviously you were too lazy to read the article linked to the original post or you would know the answer to your qusetions. Here is the link again: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16890732/ Page 2 talks about Schmidt and his qualifications. I also suggest reading the other links in the article too. If you need help comprehending the BIG words just let me know and I'll be glad to help.

[fieldseng2]

Originally Posted by mikeyboy
Stwfire44,
Have you been able to confirm that these are the PASS Devices for the Panthers? I talked to my Deputy Chief yesterday and we haven't been able to find out which models the bad PASS is used on. We also bought our BAs around the same time it seems your Department did.

What Departments were contacted by Survivair regarding the bad PASS?

Mikeyboy,
the model we have at stillwater fire is the survivair (panther ) all the mfg date on the compass pass is 2000 to 2001. It seem that if we allow our pass device dry out for couple days the pass devices start to work? Dallas fire has been using hair dryers to get the job done.

The problems here in StLouis have been w/the PASS devices for the Survivair Panthers. This is what Rob and Derek were wearing and failed to function the night they were killed. I believe the whole point to all this was that Survivair didn't notify anyone because they didnt feel it was a safety issue.

Thats why even though they settled out of court w/Rob's family, they admitted NO FAULT!

[VinnieB]

No FFFRED you called Schmidt a "volly chief" from "Upperstraw Bottom USA" and a "clown". You also strongly implied that he doesn't understand "operational procedures, and assigned duties, and responsibilities". As for NIOSH reports being usless after reading their handbook I can see why that would be true. Let alone how they actual seem to run investigations, which is even worse. I sounds like most of the dont have fire experience, and as I said earlier the investigators NEED fire fighting experience.

FFRED is refering to the guy who signed the letter "Robert E. Koedam M.S." who states that he, himself, was a vollie chief.

[VinnieB]

Tell us, Fred, just who WOULD you cooperate with? Obviously investigators from your FD and your union, but anyone else?

I'm with FFRED on this because our Chiefs and Union officials all started in the same place, and have operational experiance and knowledge of our system.

Its tough to find someone who can look at our procedures and truly undertand them without ever "being there" first.

Noone is more critical on us...then us. Trust me, the jobs mentioned are STILL being critiqued and changes implimented.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I'm with FFRED on this because our Chiefs and Union officials all started in the same place, and have operational experiance and knowledge of our system.

Its tough to find someone who can look at our procedures and truly undertand them without ever "being there" first.

Noone is more critical on us...then us. Trust me, the jobs mentioned are STILL being critiqued and changes implimented.

You realize,of course, that an agency who only allows internal investigation is equally able to cover up any indiscretions.

If a major urban department like Baltimore can submit to a federal investigation, why couldn't FDNY?

Wait. I know. It's DIFFERENT in NY.

[FFFRED]

Fred obviously you were too lazy to read the article linked to the original post or you would know the answer to your qusetions. Here is the link again: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16890732/ Page 2 talks about Schmidt and his qualifications. I also suggest reading the other links in the article too. If you need help comprehending the BIG words just let me know and I'll be glad to help.

Obviously you were too lazy to read what I what post I was refering to when I first mentioned the volly chief thing. Pull your head out. How many times do I have to explain this to you before you will understand?

FTM-PTB

PS-Since you have been too slow to figure it out for yourself as of yet, my comments were in reference to post #26.

[FFFRED]

You realize,of course, that an agency who only allows internal investigation is equally able to cover up any indiscretions.

If a major urban department like Baltimore can submit to a federal investigation, why couldn't FDNY?

Wait. I know. It's DIFFERENT in NY.

First I don't know, that is Baltimores decision. Do you realize it takes years and intense study and application for one to truly understand and comprehend how our procedures work?

There are Procedures, AUCs, PAID's, training Bulletins...etc. More thorough than just about any other two fire departments you could pick combined. Much of it, is vetted and backed up with 1000s of fires or incidents to verify its purpose and safe implimentation on the fireground. One usaully doesn't get promoted until one has 7+ years on the job as a fireman. It takes litterally years of studing and usually an intense final 6 months were one has their heads burried in the books for Hours a day just to hope to score high enough to be promoted to the rank of Lieutennant. And some joe-blow from Anytown USA is going to walk in and in a few months offer a relevant and fact backed opinion about what happened and what should happen in the future regarding any particular fire or incident in this city? Anyone who thinks that is realisticly possible is only ignoring the facts.

One only needs to look at the obvious oversights and gaffes made by those who investigated the Richie Sclafani fire to see the error in believing that these people could understand all the prerequisite procedural and practical applications on the fireground. It clearly isn't possible for these investigators to come to a relevant conclusion because they obviously didn't even account for our operational procedures and in lieu substitued their own subjective and obviously limited experience and beliefs on how we should fight a fire, apparently regardless of how dangerous or poorly concieved their ideas might be.

Also I'm not sure, does Baltimore, have its own Safety Battalion and Division, with supporting resources. Do they have their own dedicated R & D staff? Do they have the staffing and resources to conduct a through investigation?

Does some of what I say apply to Baltimore? Perhaps it does, but that is not for me to say. All I can say is that we make our decisions based on our sitaution and they make theirs based on their situation. They want some Federal quack second guessing them...that is their business.

FTM-PTB

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Before I coment further, I have not read the report you are referencing. Is it available online or do you have access to a copy? FF LODD investigation is a subject that I lecture on frequently and I would be interested in reading it.

[FFFRED]

ooops double post

[FFFRED]

Before I coment further, I have not read the report you are referencing. Is it available online or do you have access to a copy? FF LODD investigation is a subject that I lecture on frequently and I would be interested in reading it.

NIOSH Richie Sclafani Report

FTM-PTB

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

NIOSH Richie Sclafani Report

FTM-PTB

I didn't realize it was a NIOSH Report. I could have found it myself. Thank you.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I obviously haven't had time to read the report in detail. ALso, I willnot comment on the incident, as I wasn't there and I didn't participate int he investigation. But I have on quick preliminary question...

What makes a basement fire in a two family wood frame dwelling in a residential neighborhood in Queens different from the same fire in a residential neighborhood in any other state in this country?

BTW, This might be the wrong thread to discuss this, as the PASS activated and did what it was supposed to do.

[VinnieB]

You realize,of course, that an agency who only allows internal investigation is equally able to cover up any indiscretions.

If a major urban department like Baltimore can submit to a federal investigation, why couldn't FDNY?

Wait. I know. It's DIFFERENT in NY.

George....why do I care what Baltimore does? And yes... things are different in NY.


Thanks for the attitude...missed ya.

[hfd326]

In the end the final investigation will be done by 12 people who's only experience to fire fighting will have been watching "Rescue Me" in their Lazy-Boys. I know that if I was a department Chief whos commanders had done as much right as possible I would rather go into court with an independent investigation exonerating us than one by my department. Cause if there is the least hint of impropriety in what was or was not done at the incident or during the investigation, break out the check book cause that jury will side with the widow and children in a heart beat.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

George....why do I care what Baltimore does? And yes... things are different in NY.


Thanks for the attitude...missed ya.

I'm not sure that my attitude is the problem here....

Can you explain to me the answer to the question I asked above?

[FFFRED]

I obviously haven't had time to read the report in detail. ALso, I willnot comment on the incident, as I wasn't there and I didn't participate int he investigation. But I have on quick preliminary question...

What makes a basement fire in a two family wood frame dwelling in a residential neighborhood in Queens different from the same fire in a residential neighborhood in any other state in this country?

BTW, This might be the wrong thread to discuss this, as the PASS activated and did what it was supposed to do.

Nothing is different and everything is different, George. It has to do with context.

Sure a fire in a two family wood frame dwelling in Suburban Denver probably wouldn't be much different that this one in ENY (other than perhaps the security measures might be slightly different ) however if one is going to judge what happened it should be done under the context and relevancy of the Dept procedures.

First it claims a preliminary report wasn't given. The dispatcher would have been calling non-stop for the Battalion or Division if one wasn't given...unless they lost all radio communications with the Brooklyn CO, which wasn't a problem here, it would have been given. I've never been to or heard a job where a preliminary report wasn't given. Add to that claims that the members on the inside or rear didn't give updates to the Chief is also non-sense. Our officers do nothing but assure our members safety and apprise the chief of the situation and if it is improving or getting worse.

Second the report recommended a number of inappropriate and ill-advised actions that would undoubtedly result in more injuries and LODDs. Officer attempting to walk around entire structure, taking the 1st line into the rear basement entrance.

The investigator disagreed with our Training bulletin which is our SOP for use of a TIC and even went as far to state in so much that the 1st Due Ladder Officer should be with the nozzle team! Our policy is the way it is because one really can't define 100% how an officer is to coordinate the search with his men using a TIC. It is obviously situation depenent and left to officer discression. There is no pressing need to define these roles otherwise we would have done it ourselves.

It mentions there should be a FAST(RIT) team in place but it fails to mention that we have a procedures in place if the FAST isn't on scene yet. Once again, he didn't have the prerequisite knowledge.

He claims that we should all sit there and examine each other, making sure our gear was properly donned before going inside as if we had the time or need for that. I can only imagine what kind of experience this guy has with comments such as this.

And the best one off all this idiots obvious oversights was the fact that "Central Dispatch" would presumably acknowledge a Mayday and he just assumed that Central Dispatch is monitoring a tactical frequency. That if nothing else, shows he didn't have the required prerequisite knowledge to pass judgment on what those men did and didn't do on that day. Our dispatch has NOTHING to do with tactical freqs or acknowledging MAYDAYs.

If they are going to pass judgment on our fires, it has to be under the context of our procedures, not those of some volley chief in Coal Country West Virginia who doesn't know the first thing about fighting fire.

There are a number of inconsistencies and inaccuracies which differ from our more thorough and accurate internal report on the fire.

The only reason we are discussing this is because a few dim bulbs couldn't determine from dialogue on here that me and NYCKFTBL were briefly mentioning a side issue with NIOSH. They are Federal Bureaucratic clowns who don't have the credentials to be questioning anyone, much less us.

FTM-PTB

PS-I'm done hijacking this thread if you are George.

PPS- Point of order you agreed with me George that it was disappointing that there was a signifigant lack of Firefighting experience in this program.