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    Default PASS Alarm Investigation


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    For those who choose to read this article, I want you to know the information about Shane was taken from a NIOSH report that was full of errors. He most definitely was NOT just five feet from the front door, but much further than that...and you can trust me on that one. I have tried to correct this, but to no avail. The part about the PASS being inaudible IS true, however. I'm still not sure how the five feet thing got put in that report, but I'm tired of reading it and I'm here to set the record straight on that issue. I used to put stock in NIOSH reports before this incident...but now, I don't believe a damn thing they say. Ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    For those who choose to read this article, I want you to know the information about Shane was taken from a NIOSH report that was full of errors. He most definitely was NOT just five feet from the front door, but much further than that...and you can trust me on that one. I have tried to correct this, but to no avail. The part about the PASS being inaudible IS true, however. I'm still not sure how the five feet thing got put in that report, but I'm tired of reading it and I'm here to set the record straight on that issue. I used to put stock in NIOSH reports before this incident...but now, I don't believe a damn thing they say. Ever.
    Many of the NIOSH reports I have read, including FDNY LODD reports over the past few years, have been full of mistakes.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    You guys have that right, but if you think NIOSH reports are bad you ought to try reading Texas State Fire Marshall's Office reports. Yikes!

    This is a very scary article and angers me a great deal. An added positive is tha it rails on Surpriseair pretty hard, and I truly hope no department is ever foolish enough to purchase their products again. Most intriguing was how an epidemioligist specializing in child labor was supervising a fire protection engineer who also happened to be a 20 yr veteran and a retired captain and that she had the gall to tell him he didn't understand what was relevant!
    In time

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    I find it interesting that they also list Carthage, MO FF Steve Fierro. Now as time goes on, details fade, but there was some question as to whether or not his PASS was even activated. It seems like they found it was, but the circumstances surrounding the event (metal roof supported by trusses collapsed), it would have been difficult to hear the PASS and find him whether it was going off or not.

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    I watched the story, I'm not sure what is accurate and what isn't, I've not read the reports. I do know that we purchased the same SCBA units as STLFD I think at the same time (around 8 years ago, someone correct me if I'm wrong) so it's something that concerns us for sure. Watching the video took me back to the LODD's, and I remember my engine being at E1/SQ1 filling in for the City so they could all attend the services, and the pain on those guys faces when they returned......something I won't ever forget. May all of those fallen brothers and sisters rest in peace.

    Stay safe

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Many of the NIOSH reports I have read, including FDNY LODD reports over the past few years, have been full of mistakes.
    Remember the qualifications and experience of the NIOSH fellows is actually approximately nill. One was once an officer or chief in some volly dept somewhere a few years back.

    That is about it. Makes you wonder about the quality of the reports now. I know it was an eye opener for me.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Remember the qualifications and experience of the NIOSH fellows is actually approximately nill. One was once an officer or chief in some volly dept somewhere a few years back.

    That is about it. Makes you wonder about the quality of the reports now. I know it was an eye opener for me.

    FTM-PTB
    You know, we don't agree on much, but you are dead on here. The most disappointing thing about this otherwise promising program is the complete lack of fire suppression experience in the NIOSH field personnel.

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    If you think there is no hope for fire fighter safety at the federal level, do not despair. Hope lies in Gaithersburg, MD at the NIST Building and Fire Research Lab. Check out these two projects:

    http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/projects/p...?cc=8661012000

    http://www2.bfrl.nist.gov/projects/p...?cc=8665235000

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    Is it any suprise that there are inaccuracies in the reports? After reading the article, management seems to already concluded what problems should be investigated and what shouldn't.

    It appears they didnot want to find a problem with equipment. They just want to blame operations, communications and command.

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    John Kerry has jumped into the melee with both six-guns blazing.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16994965/
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    I haven't really read the NIOSH reports over the last couple years.

    It used to be, even if the conclusions were in left field (I sure get the impression the first rule of a NIOSH report: There has to be a radio failure involved, second rule is ICS mustn't have been done properly)...you could follow the narrative and usually that gave some good idea of what the problem was -- sometimes dumb luck, sometime serious strategy & tactics errors, sometimes dumb luck that we could learn from and make not so dumb in the future.

    I recently read the NIOSH on the Black Sunday fire -- and was getting fustrated because it seemed to lack some crucial details. I recalled I had audio files from the radio traffic that day...dug those up and listened to those...

    If you bleeped out the unit numbers, I'm not sure someone would know they were the same incident.

    I have heard that criticism in the past (here no less, years ago) and partially dismissed some of that. But wow, if the Black Sunday report is typical it would really cast doubt on their entire series.

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    Default Part 2

    Part 2 of the story...

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16991877/
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    Protecting Residents In District #1 Everyday
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    I guess my first thought about this subject was "Why the H*** is the Center For Disease Control investigating firefighter deaths?" That makes about as much sense as OSHA investigating the bird flu. Thanks again to Bill Clinton.
    A firefighter death should be treated as a workplace accident, plain and simple. OSHA should be investigating them. Whoever is going to do the investigation, they need to have the necessary tools, skills and money to do it properly. If CDC is going to continue to handle the investigations, they should demand the regulatory authority to get subpeonas, search warrants, all records and evidence. They should have the money to be ready to go 24/7/365. Waiting until Monday to check thier voice mail for death reports is inexcuseable at best and negligent at worst. They should model their response on the NTSB's Go Teams for aviation accidents.
    They should hire (full-time) the necessary people with fire service expertise to be ready to handle all cases and not leave the decisions up to bureaucrats who are only looking at the bottom line (cost).
    The fact that the CDC only cares that an autopsy report shows that a firefighter may have died from smoke inhalation and not caring WHY they died of smoke inhalation is like a Police Detective only caring that a murder victim died of a gunshot wound, not what the caliber was, the trajectory, distance gun was fired from the victim, etc. Who needs all that information, he is still dead, right?
    Watch your backs, folks. If anything happens to you, your family may never know the real reason why.
    Last edited by Lifeguard911; 02-06-2007 at 09:48 AM.

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    They might as well have the NFPA set up a division to investigate firefighter fatalities. Since everything is based on their standards anyways, they would have more knowledge than the CDC and NIOSH who was originally set up to investigate farm accidents.

    Also see http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=87507
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmitchell View Post
    They might as well have the NFPA set up a division to investigate firefighter fatalities. Since everything is based on their standards anyways, they would have more knowledge than the CDC and NIOSH who was originally set up to investigate farm accidents.

    Also see http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=87507
    If I am not mistaken, the NTSB is made up of a panel of experts from different fields, like metallurgy (spell?), avionics, etc. It would make perfect sense to me that the CDC or NIOSH investigative panel should include a NFPA representitive, maybe an ATF guy, etc. I mean, if this were to be taken seriously, there should be a panel of experts on a team. Just my $.02

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmitchell View Post
    They might as well have the NFPA set up a division to investigate firefighter fatalities.
    FWIW, the NFPA has looked into ~30 firefighter fatailites over the years and produced very detailed investigative reports.

    The CDC/NIOSH unit would be well served to look at how the NFPA has handled those investigations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1080iAddict View Post
    I mean, if this were to be taken seriously, there should be a panel of experts on a team
    But that would only make sense which is unheard of in our society
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    I guess my first thought about this subject was "Why the H*** is the Center For Disease Control investigating firefighter deaths?" That makes about as much sense as OSHA investigating the bird flu.

    The National Institute of Occupational Safety & Health is one of the Centers for Disease Control.

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    In reading the articles about this, it's been said a few times about departments not being willing to cooperate.

    That is sad.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    FWIW, the NFPA has looked into ~30 firefighter fatailites over the years and produced very detailed investigative reports.

    The CDC/NIOSH unit would be well served to look at how the NFPA has handled those investigations.
    No. You're wrong. Those investigations were only conducted at the behest of the "manufacturers", a secret evil group of characters who sit as somewhat of a "shadow government" at the NFPA. The goal was to exonerate all gear, equipment and apparatus from any fault whatever.

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    I was looking at the timeline and some of those facts are wrong. Like Rob Morrison and Derek Martin dying in a restaurant. If my memory serves me correctly they died fighting a fire at the Gravois Refrigeration Company.

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    I was a bit astonished by some of that second article. Why is it they don't have the authority to enter the scene of any firefighter fatality? What does it really matter what the FD or union thinks? Isn't the whole reason for this program to find out what happened and recommend changes so the fire service as a whole can learn from it and prevent someone else from dying?

    I'm wondering if they shouldn't give the job back to the USFA, give them the authority and require every firefighter fatality to be investigated. Have them put someone on the fireground within hours, instead of weeks. And tell the FDs and locals that don't like it where they can send their complaint and move on with the investigation.

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    What does it really matter what the FD or union thinks?
    Because when/if someone screwed up, they don't want it published for the world to see and families/attornies to find out.

    That would be my guess.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I was looking at the timeline and some of those facts are wrong. Like Rob Morrison and Derek Martin dying in a restaurant. If my memory serves me correctly they died fighting a fire at the Gravois Refrigeration Company.

    You are correct.

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