View Poll Results: What is your opinion of the NFPA?

Voters
71. You may not vote on this poll
  • Nitwits! I don't want these guys anywhere near me!

    57 80.28%
  • Gods Gift - I'm happy letting them run my department

    14 19.72%
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 1234 ... Last
  1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default NFPA - Nitwits or Gods gift to firefighting?

    So, what do you think about this group and their works?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Outside Philadelphia
    Posts
    519

    Default

    How about a middle of the road? They have some excellent points, and some not so good ones.

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JTFIRE80 View Post
    How about a middle of the road? They have some excellent points, and some not so good ones.
    The hottest spot in hell is reserved for those who refuse to take a side!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  4. #4
    the 4-1-4
    Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,784

    Default

    I vote 'nitwits'.


    These firefighting 'gods', and their standards, were used to cut my job down.

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Have buildings with fire alarm systems? NFPA 72

    Have buildings with sprinkler systems? NFPA 13

    Firefighter health and safety? NFPA 1500

    Staffing recommendations: NFPA 1710 and 1720.

    Fire doors, flame reisitant materials, etc? NFPA life safety code.

    Most of the grunts on the line don't know what NFPA does. As you advance through the ranks, you learn more about what they do.

    We post here and bitch about them, but we can also have a voice in what goes on.. one would spend a little time voicing one's concerns instead of whining here, things could be better... or worse....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    775

    Default Given those choices...

    ...nitwits.

    But in fact, they aren't nitwits at all. They are very good at what they do, which is shill for equipment manufacturers.

    I'll start taking them seriously when they stop taking money from industry and stop seating industry reps on panels.

    And yes, I know everything has a cost, and they need to keep the lights on. And yes, I know that "standards" written by interested parties are the dirty little secret of most statehouses. But they take it too far.

    Is it good to have standards? Of course. But are we seeing an ongoing firefighter bloodbath in the non-NFPA states? Nope.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    The hottest spot in hell is reserved for those who refuse to take a side!
    Guess I'm in hell. (and my NFPA gear is keeping me safe)

    They have some good, some bad, some crazy, some ok.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    We post here and bitch about them, but we can also have a voice in what goes on.. one would spend a little time voicing one's concerns instead of whining here, things could be better... or worse....
    You have to pay for your own admission. You can join for $$$ and have a voice or not...but either way it will have an effect on you regardless if you participate it or not.

    Sounds like extortion to me.

    Besides if the majority of the nations firemen got involved and voted on this...the manufactures and politcians would stop subscribing and create a new "authority" for fire codes.

    Don't think so?...just look how upset they got when 1710 didn't go their way. Now just imagine every policy not going their way...would they still pay for their membership? I seriously doubt it.

    NFPA at one time did a great service for firemen everywhere....today they have morphed into a great self-promoting self perpetuating "nonprofit" that develops new products for market and to sell to everyone and keep them in business. (and the manufactures who also stay in business because of these clowns.)

    Make the manufacts. advisory only and I'll reconsider my position.

    They are of little to no use for me.

    FTM-PTB

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    You simply cannot generalize about this.

    The "NFPA" really doesn't do anything about codes and standards except to coordinate the process. All committee members are independent members of the fire protection community. They are unpaid (by the NFPA). The committee structure is as balanced as possible to avoid "stacking". Although membership in the NFPA costs, so does your membership in your union, your fraternal organization, your condo association, your swim club, your Little League, etc.

    The NFPA does other things besides codes and standards. They publish books and training materials. Just like Fire Engineering, Firehouse, Delmar, Brady, etc. They conduct research-research that benefits all fire fighters-whether they are members or not. They conduct investigations of major fire incident. And unlike NIOSH and other public agency investigations, they very often name names and do not hold back on the details. These investigations benefit all of us.

    The falacy (sic) is that you have to be a member to participate in the code development process. You absolutely do not. Any person can submit proposals and comments. Every proposal and every comment is read and acted upon by the Technical Committee. I would take Fred's statement one step further, that is, is every FF in this country participated in the process, they would get the codes and standards that they want. But they don't.

    Several things already posted here boggle the mind. The NFPA does not pretend to be a charity or philanthropic organization. Why are they the devil reincarnate because they spend money to develop books, videos and other training materials and then sell those materials at a profit? I cannot understand this logic.

    The other one is why should manufacturers have any less representation than any other aspect of the fire protection community? They are the ones who are investing in the development of the gear. They have as much at stake as anyone. Why should a fire fighter be disqualified from membership on a Technical Committee simply because they are from a FD that doesn't do as many runs or fires as the larger FD's? They have alot at stake as well. The NFPA tries to balance the committees. I cannot believe that you will find a Technical Committee that is stacked.

    The NFPA is not a perfect organization. But, then again, neither is your FD. But many of the posts here exhibit a tremendous ignorance of their history, their mission and the manner in which the codes and standards are developed.

    Let me ask some questions of those who are complaining...what have you done to change things? Have you submitted comments and proposals? Have you sought membership on a Technical Committee? Have you voted? It seems to me that if you decide to remain outside the process, you forfeit your right to complain about it.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    775

    Default

    The NFPA does other things besides codes and standards. They publish books and training materials. Just like Fire Engineering, Firehouse, Delmar, Brady, etc. They conduct research-research that benefits all fire fighters-whether they are members or not. They conduct investigations of major fire incident. And unlike NIOSH and other public agency investigations, they very often name names and do not hold back on the details. These investigations benefit all of us.
    And I don't see any complaining about those things. Try limiting NFPA activities to these, and see how long the manufacturers remain interested and involved.

    Several things already posted here boggle the mind. The NFPA does not pretend to be a charity or philanthropic organization. Why are they the devil reincarnate because they spend money to develop books, videos and other training materials and then sell those materials at a profit? I cannot understand this logic.
    I don't see any posts where anyone complains about NFPA selling materials that they develop for profit. I see posts that complain about an organization whose standards directly benefit manufacturers taking as much money and input from manufacturers.

    The other one is why should manufacturers have any less representation than any other aspect of the fire protection community? They are the ones who are investing in the development of the gear. They have as much at stake as anyone. Why should a fire fighter be disqualified from membership on a Technical Committee simply because they are from a FD that doesn't do as many runs or fires as the larger FD's? They have alot at stake as well. The NFPA tries to balance the committees. I cannot believe that you will find a Technical Committee that is stacked.
    There are other ways to go about this. And other standards-writing organizations manage. For example, the Uniform Commercial Code is promulgated by an organization called the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws. Would you care to guess how much funding the NCCUSL (a not-for-profit, not a government agency) receives from commercial entities? I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with "done".

    Let me ask some questions of those who are complaining...what have you done to change things? Have you submitted comments and proposals? Have you sought membership on a Technical Committee? Have you voted? It seems to me that if you decide to remain outside the process, you forfeit your right to complain about it.
    So we ID an organization that seems by its very nature to represent a huge conflict of interest, and your response is that we should join that organization and seek to change it over time? I don't think so. How about we simply limit the organization's role in standards-writing until such time as its organizational integrity is not in doubt?

    I won't believe that Ford and Chevy have my best interests at heart when they tell me how often to replace my car, or what features and options it should have. And I won't believe the NFPA has my best interests at heart while the huge confict of interest inherent in the organization's current set-up remains unresolved.
    Last edited by randsc; 02-05-2007 at 11:47 PM.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    You simply cannot generalize about this.

    The "NFPA" really doesn't do anything about codes and standards except to coordinate the process. All committee members are independent members of the fire protection community. They are unpaid (by the NFPA). The committee structure is as balanced as possible to avoid "stacking". Although membership in the NFPA costs, so does your membership in your union, your fraternal organization, your condo association, your swim club, your Little League, etc.
    But most of those organizations you offered above are voluntary memberships, You choose to move into a certain condo, join a swim club...etc. In many states as well...union membership is also considered voluntary.

    You don't think that the fact that committee members are unpaid, might stack the committees in favor of those places that can afford to send members. Or members who can self fund themselves? What could be their motivation.

    The NFPA does other things besides codes and standards. They publish books and training materials. Just like Fire Engineering, Firehouse, Delmar, Brady, etc. They conduct research-research that benefits all fire fighters-whether they are members or not. They conduct investigations of major fire incident. And unlike NIOSH and other public agency investigations, they very often name names and do not hold back on the details. These investigations benefit all of us.
    The falacy (sic) is that you have to be a member to participate in the code development process. You absolutely do not. Any person can submit proposals and comments. Every proposal and every comment is read and acted upon by the Technical Committee. I would take Fred's statement one step further, that is, is every FF in this country participated in the process, they would get the codes and standards that they want. But they don't.
    To be a full fleged member of a democracy one must be able to vote. To really say one participates in an orgainization and the process it is critical that that person also have a proportional final say in the process and that is to vote. To think that we should pay to be allowed to have an voice on the standards that we will be affected by is unacceptable. Would 1710 have passed without 1000s of firemen getting memberships and voting? Right there is your answer.

    Several things already posted here boggle the mind. The NFPA does not pretend to be a charity or philanthropic organization. Why are they the devil reincarnate because they spend money to develop books, videos and other training materials and then sell those materials at a profit? I cannot understand this logic.
    You are right...one must really question what their true overreaching concern is? Is it safety or is it creating new revenue streams? What their motivation is and what drives that organization should be a concern to all of us. Once again it creates the appearance if nothing else of impropriety and questionable motives.

    The other one is why should manufacturers have any less representation than any other aspect of the fire protection community? They are the ones who are investing in the development of the gear. They have as much at stake as anyone. Why should a fire fighter be disqualified from membership on a Technical Committee simply because they are from a FD that doesn't do as many runs or fires as the larger FD's? They have alot at stake as well. The NFPA tries to balance the committees. I cannot believe that you will find a Technical Committee that is stacked.
    They are NOT part of the Fire Service! What would happen if a local government allowed a local dealer or manufacturer to sit on their bid committee, conflict of interest, fraud and rigged bid processes no?

    Is Boeing part of the Military because they sell products to the US Air Force?

    They are all trying to sell products and make money off of the fire service...they should have an advisory role period.

    The NFPA is not a perfect organization. But, then again, neither is your FD. But many of the posts here exhibit a tremendous ignorance of their history, their mission and the manner in which the codes and standards are developed.

    Let me ask some questions of those who are complaining...what have you done to change things? Have you submitted comments and proposals? Have you sought membership on a Technical Committee? Have you voted? It seems to me that if you decide to remain outside the process, you forfeit your right to complain about it.[/QUOTE]

    To bad I can't afford it. Too busy trying to make a living.

    FTM-PTB

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    CdnFD24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    266

    Wink

    I would like to vote my opinion, but those two poll options are a joke.

    I'm in favor of NFPA, but they don't run my department.

    I learned about NFPA the same time I learned about level 1. You can't learn level 1 firefighting in my area without knowing NFPA. They go hand in hand, as it should be.

    Neil
    "You see things and you ask, 'Why'? I dream of things that never were and I say, 'Why not'?

    "I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere near the place."

    "When you are kind to someone in trouble, you hope they'll remember and be kind to someone else. And it'll become like a wildfire."

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    MalahatTwo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
    Posts
    12,837

    Default

    I am in agreement with CR and George on most things here. NFPA is like any other organization, there are good parts and not so good parts about it.

    Unions and NFPA started out the same way: there was a need for a standard, and they were created to fill that need. Both have morphed into things that some would say is for the betterment of all, some would say it is for the betterment of Self - meaning the individual organization itself. Either way, a person may either like the provided service or not like the service. In the case of not liking it, what are you or have you done to:

    1) voice your concerns; or
    2) present your ideas in a constructive manner for which change might be affected?

    RandC, there are more threads and comments in here than most people have fingers and toes to count with regards to NFPA and what it has or has not done for the Fire Service since its inception.

    Fred, the last time I looked at least part of the NFPA Committee was made up of either currently serving or past serving members of the fire/safety service.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CdnFD24 View Post
    I would like to vote my opinion, but those two poll options are a joke.
    Then make your own damn poll.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Asking "What is your opinion of the NFPA?" and then only offering two extremist answers is pointless.

    You might as well ask "What is your opinion of the FDNY?" and offer the same response options. The reply would be just as meaningful (or meaningless).

    Is the NFPA perfect? Of course not. Nobody and no organization is. Nonetheless they're responsible for peer standards that affect every single one of us every day. From promulgating the National Electrical Code to sponsoring Fire Prevention Week to developing peer standards for firefighter training the NFPA has done something that benefits you and everyone you know personally. And you and everyone you know personally has the option of contributing to the process.

    Don't like something in their standards? Get involved in the process and make your case to change them -- it's an open process. If you have a gripe about an NFPA standard but you've never taken the time to submit comment on it to support your case then you don't have the right to b*tch. It's as simple as that.
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 02-06-2007 at 10:16 AM.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    jaybird210's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    911 N. Sycamore St. Yep, that's really our address.
    Posts
    2,604

    Default

    I guess I'll take my seat among the hell-bound.

    NFPA is like a government agency. Some good things, some bad things, some middle of the road. There's been a lot of talk about NFPA on these boards lately, mostly because of the latest Lairdsville thread. I'm sure that's what prompted my fellow flatland brother to start this one. There are a lot of ugly things to be said about some of the things that NFPA standards require. I am not na´ve enough to believe that there are never cases where requirements are written into the standards to sell stuff or make money. For example, I believe that the heads-up requirement for SCBA is stupid. Train your people to watch their air consumption. The proposal to make all SCBA interchangable is another. There are others, you can add in your own. These are the standards that chafe me; they will cost me money, and once written, there is little that can be done to stop it. You are simply non-compliant. And anything you buy from here on out will be more expensive because you can't opt-out of these options.

    On the other hand, standards like NFPA 1403 don't cost a penny. Most ordinary departments can easily comply with ALL of the safety recommendations and still have good, solid, meaningful training. Best of all, there is a third party that has written a consensus standard with which you have complied. Over the past umpteen years, live fire training evolutions that have resulted in firefighter deaths and injuries have been investigated for cause, and those causes have been boiled down and prohibited in the standard. And I think that is the root cause of so many firefighter deaths and injuries every year: we REFUSE to learn from these incidents. It won't happen to us. We've done it this way for years, and no one has been hurt yet. We are safe because I say so. I know it's safe. We have to do this to toughen our guys up.

    Other standards are written in a similar way. Something that went wrong and resulted in a death or injury or large property loss has found its way into a standard to prevent a recurrence. Where did the idea for heads-up information on SCBA come from? Where did the lighting standard for fire apparatus come from? Where did the life-safety code come from? Some of that stuff is written to sell things and some of it is written to save lives. And having read many of these standards, I believe most of the stuff is written to save lives.
    Omnis Cedo Domus

    www.hinckleyfd.org

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Unions and NFPA started out the same way: there was a need for a standard, and they were created to fill that need. Both have morphed into things that some would say is for the betterment of all, some would say it is for the betterment of Self - meaning the individual organization itself. Either way, a person may either like the provided service or not like the service. In the case of not liking it, what are you or have you done to...
    I don't believe the UAW pretends to be out to help GM. Of course they are there for the betterment of a select group, the uaw and its members - they never claimed anything else. NFPA claims to be about my safety and the safety of this profession as a whole. And as the supporters of NFPA so gleefully point out anytime you disagree with them - "Yes they are just 'reccomedations', but if you get in trouble they will be used against you". They strong arm us into following their 'reccomedations' while they and everyone else makes money from it. I find it really hard to believe that anyone here is childish enough to think that having Morning Pride telling us what gear we need is not a HUGE conflict of interest and an invitation - no, an order from God himself - to abuse the whole writing of the standard. Scott telling me I need a HUD or voice amp and then nfpa forcing me to buy it???? Are you really that much of a wide eyed rube? I mean come on! Where does this happen in the real world? It happens on our city council all the time - and we have had an average of one alderman a year go to federal prision since 1970! Open your eyes, boyscouts.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 02-06-2007 at 11:06 AM.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber
    MalahatTwo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
    Posts
    12,837

    Default

    I am in no way a full supporter of NFPA, but coming from the Army way of training, and the Navy way of firefighter training (back when I didn't know any better...) I fully recognize and support that there is a need for a national standard of doing business. I do also recognize that region to region there are going to be some distinct differences. Example, Malahat VFD is a rural fire department, enclosed on all sides by interface issues. Summer fire season is always "fun". But their maystay meat and potatoes is from EMS calls. Followed by MVA's on the 10 or so miles of Trans Canada highway that runs through, and the associated car fires that happen every summer. In my 5 years of service with them, we only had two full blown structure fires, and maybe 20 or 30 chimney fires - the last "major" chimney fire during my service with them was Christmas Day 2000.

    Ok enough of the history lesson.

    Malahat is a NFPA compliant (mostly) station. Why? Because it gives the training staff a standard that can be taught, that is acheivable and one that is transferable.

    Nothing more on the planet sets me off more than to hear "Well. We've always done it this way in the past and no one got hurt before." Does that make it right? Ask the guys who died because they "always did it that way..."

    It is our legacy (I hope) to learn the easy way what they had to learn the hard and final way.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Like some, I will have to vote "None of the above" on this one.

    How can you paint such an organisation all black or all white?

    Their guidelines can be very helpfull when needed and kind of "in the way" too sometimes...

    My feeling is use them but don't let them run your FD...

    Sly

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    I don't believe the UAW pretends to be out to help GM. Of course they are there for the betterment of a select group, the uaw and its members - they never claimed anything else. NFPA claims to be about my safety and the safety of this profession as a whole. And as the supporters of NFPA so gleefully point out anytime you disagree with them - "Yes they are just 'reccomedations', but if you get in trouble they will be used against you". They strong arm us into following their 'reccomedations' while they and everyone else makes money from it. I find it really hard to believe that anyone here is childish enough to think that having Morning Pride telling us what gear we need is not a HUGE conflict of interest and an invitation - no, an order from God himself - to abuse the whole writing of the standard. Scott telling me I need a HUD or voice amp and then nfpa forcing me to buy it???? Are you really that much of a wide eyed rube? I mean come on! Where does this happen in the real world? It happens on our city council all the time - and we have had an average of one alderman a year go to federal prision since 1970! Open your eyes, boyscouts.
    Don't forget Chicago the FDNYs new PSS (the personal ropes that arose from the Black sunday incident) are bulkier and have less rope because of the NFPA who's wonderful standards mean I only have 50ft of bail out rope and not 70ft. And my hook is bigger with a more complicated than neccesary gate on it.

    THANKS NFPA

    FTM-PTB

    PS- Chicago...incase you missed a majority of the posts in many of these forums...there are plenty of rubes out there. I had about a good dozen who were arguing against their own constitutional rights in a few related topics. Not too many independent thinkers out there anymore
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-06-2007 at 11:56 AM.

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber
    EFD840's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Eclectic (no, NOT electric), Alabama
    Posts
    1,510

    Default

    Slide over Jaybird. I need a seat on the hellbound bus too.

    The organization is needed, and they create some very good work (1403) BUT I completely agree that having vendors play a major, if not dominating role, in creating the standards that govern their products almost guarantees that profit motive will corrupt the process. The HUD is a textbook example. Do four little lights on the bottom of my facepiece really improve my safety or do they just improve Survivair's earnings statement? I can honestly say I never notice them.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    I fully recognize and support that there is a need for a national standard of doing business.
    Oh really? And what standard should that be? The Chicago way? I doubt many here would like our attitude and way of operating. Malahats system here in Chicago? I seriously doubt it. Who's going to decide??? Oh, heres an idea.... how about CFD decides whats right for CFD and Malahat decides whats right for Malahat. If malahat is a small outfit with limited experience then you can go to NFPA for some guidence - VOLUNTARY guidence.
    Malahat is a NFPA compliant (mostly) station. Why? Because it gives the training staff a standard that can be taught, that is acheivable and one that is transferable.

    Nothing more on the planet sets me off more than to hear "Well. We've always done it this way in the past and no one got hurt before." Does that make it right? Ask the guys who died because they "always did it that way..."

    It is our legacy (I hope) to learn the easy way what they had to learn the hard and final way.
    Again - we've always done it "that way" because "that way" was worked out over decades and decades and thousands of fires, not decided around the bar in some backwoods volunteer station. At least give us credit for the hard won experience that we have gained. If a small, slow department needs advice - great - go to nfpa (although I think you would still be better off going to the nearest "big" operation and getting real world advice from someone who knows your region and people). As for "mostly compliant" - do you meet any of the hard standards, like manning? or just the easy meaningless ones, probably funded by me and the rest of the country, to make you feel good.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    I am in no way a full supporter of NFPA, but coming from the Army way of training, and the Navy way of firefighter training (back when I didn't know any better...) I fully recognize and support that there is a need for a national standard of doing business. I do also recognize that region to region there are going to be some distinct differences. Example, Malahat VFD is a rural fire department, enclosed on all sides by interface issues. Summer fire season is always "fun". But their maystay meat and potatoes is from EMS calls. Followed by MVA's on the 10 or so miles of Trans Canada highway that runs through, and the associated car fires that happen every summer. In my 5 years of service with them, we only had two full blown structure fires, and maybe 20 or 30 chimney fires - the last "major" chimney fire during my service with them was Christmas Day 2000.

    Ok enough of the history lesson.

    Malahat is a NFPA compliant (mostly) station. Why? Because it gives the training staff a standard that can be taught, that is acheivable and one that is transferable.

    Nothing more on the planet sets me off more than to hear "Well. We've always done it this way in the past and no one got hurt before." Does that make it right? Ask the guys who died because they "always did it that way..."

    It is our legacy (I hope) to learn the easy way what they had to learn the hard and final way.
    And what if your "national" standard that is made for your little burb conflicts with the 140+ years of firefighting experience and the associated procedures that evolved from that expierence of a few larger depts with greater responsibities in terms of people and property. What then?

    Not that long ago I didn't realize that many of you couldn't buy our appratus as for example our Tower Ladders don't even come close to your "national standards" but in my experience they are far supperior in actuall application on the fireground and much of that NFPA sillyness must of had its origins in some suburban cowards office who doesn't trust his limited experience and his own men to know how to use common sense with a TL.

    What if guys like me and ChicagoFF set the standard? After all many on here claim we are all the same and I have always maintained the only difference between what I do and what you do as far as operations at a fire is your own training and your own determination of what your own personal limits are. How many of you would be up in arms over that?

    FTM-PTB

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EFD840 View Post
    ....having vendors play a major, if not dominating role, in creating the standards that govern their products almost guarantees that profit motive will corrupt the process....
    FWIW, I pulled a few NFPA equipment standards off the shelf and checked committee composition. Manufacturers made up fewer than half of any of the committees I looked at and tended more towards a third. In the case of the SCBA standard, 1981-2002, SCBA manufacturers only accounted for <25% of the committee and were outnumbered by about 2:1 by organizations directly representing the fire service.

    Manufacturers certainly play a role -- as they should -- but, IMHO, they're certainly not "dominating" the process.
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 02-06-2007 at 12:28 PM.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    FWIW, I pulled a few NFPA equipment standards off the shelf and checked committee composition. Manufacturers made up fewer than half of any of the committees I looked at and tended more towards a third. In the case of the SCBA standard, 1981-2002, SCBA manufacturers only accounted for <25% of the committee and were outnumbered by about 2:1 by organizations directly representing the fire service.

    Manufacturers certainly play a role -- as they should -- but, IMHO, they're certainly not "dominating" the process.
    They should have zero voting power. Advisory role only. The NFPA is supposedly for us. The Manufacturers only have to make the prodcuts we want...not the ones they would like to sell to us. There is no reason to even give them potential influence or the appearance of impropriety.

    They are not the end user and should have no say in this? Do you allow a local dealer to help decide on what kind of appratus you want to buy?

    FTM-PTB

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 1234 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. News Flash: firefighting in review.
    By SPFDRum in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-07-2006, 06:18 AM
  2. The Issue of Gloves & the NFPA Standards
    By rmoore in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12-10-2004, 11:50 AM
  3. Wildfire Lawsuite In Missula Montana
    By SamsonFCDES in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-17-2003, 02:56 PM
  4. Firefighting Tradition-A Wonderful Story
    By NJFFSA16 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-27-2002, 07:30 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register