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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Default Vehicle Refurbishment?

    How will vehicle refurbishment be handled in 07?

    Would it be under a vehicle applicaiton or under equipment?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    This is a great question - I am wondering if I can add a CAFS system to an engine also.

  3. #3
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    There have been significant changes to 2007 (reported so far):

    1) Previous applicants who were awarded vehicles are now eligible to again apply for a vehicle.
    2) Urban and surburban departments can apply for more than one vehicle ($1 million cap). Limited to one vehicle per station.
    3) Departments can apply for both a vehicle and operations and safety.
    4) Departments can also apply to host a Regional grant, meaning that in theory you could apply for three grants; vehicle, ops/safety and Regional.
    Beyond these major changes the PG changes little year to year. I would suspect that vehicle refurbishment will remain in the vehicle catergory.

    A CAFS system will still be be applied for within the Safety & OPS section under equipment.

  4. #4
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    My dept has applied for Fire Act grants twice for apparatus refurbishment under the equipment catorgory. The reason for this was we were asking for equipment to go on the apparatus. Both grants were approved this way. The first grant was for a 2,000 baffled tank and equipment to turn a military 5 ton chassis from the Arkansas Forestery dept into a tanker. The 5 ton was free so we got a 2,000 tanker for about $ 750.00. (our 10%) The second was a actual refurb of our 76' Ward lafrance pumper. We asked to purchase a 1,200 poly tank ( baffled) all new cabinets, and body. Everything from just behide the pump panel back would be all new. In the grant we explained that we are not asking for a apparatus we already have the chassis. In both cases all we asked for was equipment to go onto the chassis. There is no real diffinition of fire equipment in the grant rules so if it doesn't drive down the road and needs to be put on a apparatus in some from its equipment. By applying for it this was, we ended up with a very nice tanker and class A pumper yet didn;t have to compete in the vehicial catorgory. I'm sure after this there will be 20 post saying I'm wrong but I have the grant awards to prove it.

    Thanks and be safe.
    Last edited by volfireman034; 02-06-2007 at 05:52 PM.

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    So a poly tank to replace our old steel tank will fall under equipment? As well as a skid unit?

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber ktb9780's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limeforever View Post
    So a poly tank to replace our old steel tank will fall under equipment? As well as a skid unit?
    Sure it would, its equipment, not the chassis or drivetrain you are messing with.
    Kurt Bradley
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  7. #7
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    What if you did not have the chassis yet? We have funds in CD's earmarked for a new brush/quick attack truck, could we ask for the money to buy the slide in unit w/o having a truck to fit it on at the time of the request?

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    Yes, slide in units are equipment so you can ask for it by itself. And since the award may be months away, if you are going to have the chassis by the summertime when awards "might" start, then you have a valid argument for just asking for a piece of the truck.

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    Thanks Brian, I was pretty sure that was within the guidelines but it's nice to have validation from someone who knows.

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    No problem.

  11. #11
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    Okay...here is another "equipment" or "Vehicle" Category question. We have three front-line pumpers....our first-out pumper on everything is a 1984 Pierce Arrow 1000/1000. We then have a 1978 Ford/Pierce 1000/750 and a 1999 IHC/S&S 1000/2000. My question focuses on our '84 Pierce.

    It is a two door canopy cab. Water tank is steel. Body is in relatively good shape, but has some rust spots. Truck is very outdated. I don't see any need to replace it, as it is still in good mechanical shape and pumps like a charm. What I would like to see done is to refurb it....enclose the jump seats into a four-door, climate-controlled, cab....update the electrical system by adding new warning lights and relocating the siren/horns. I would like replace the water tank with a poly tank, and add a few other pieces of equipment and some new paint/cosmetics. Maybe look at overhauling the engine and tranny, if needed.

    My question is...would that fall under equipment or vehicle. I could see both places, as I am adding some equipment, but also looking at working on the engine, tranny, pump, and electrical system. I haven't given this much thought in the past, as we received a vehicle a few years ago and I knew we were inelligible. I didn't know they had revised the vehicle requirements.

    Any assistance/advice?

  12. #12
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    If it doesn't retitle the vehicle under state DOT laws then it's an equipment grant. That was the last explanation that came out that I heard from DHS, but might want to pass it by them since you're wanting to do more than most.

  13. #13
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    So since you can apply for both Vehcile and Ops & Safety this year, then essentially you could apply to refirb an existing vehicle under ops & safety and apply for a used vehicle under the vehicle program? Helping a department that has a 71 and a 77 (average age of their fleet is 25+ y/o). Looking at applying to replace the 71 with a used vehicle (low call volume and population so trying to keep cost benefit down by going used) but could they apply to refurb the 77 as well?

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    Yes they could.
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Forum Member Not2L84U2's Avatar
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    Ok, so here's some more questions....

    If you're trying to refurb a 78 and the company doing the refurb says they can't enclose the cab because of the location of the air intake, will that be a problem since it won't meet NFPA?

    Also, since Annex D says that you should replace anything over 25 y/o is it going to be an issue to try and refurb something that is 29 y/o?

    So when you're doing your cost benefit equation, how do you determine the service life of the vehicle for a refurb or for a used vehicle? Surely you wouldn't still use the 25 year mark. For used vehicles, if it were a 1990 then would the service life of the vehicle be 8 years??

  16. #16
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    Since, the refurb will not meet NFPA 1912 requirements, it will be a problem. The AFG will not fund it for that reason. So refurbishing the 29 y/o vehicle would be out of the question, meaning the only option is to replace it with a new or used vehicle.

    The NFPA uses a 25 year serive life as a benchmark or ROT, but there are a host of issues that will determine the service life of apparatus. A big urban area may be 10 years due to the call volume and use & abuse, where a rural department with low call volume and the equipment isn't abused, could get between 25-30 years without a problem. Maybe that used apparatus may get you an additional 15 years, based on its condition. An issue that would have to be explained in the narrative.

    If you are looking at used apparatus (IMO), look at apparatus 10 years or under.

  17. #17
    Forum Member Not2L84U2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    Since, the refurb will not meet NFPA 1912 requirements, it will be a problem. The AFG will not fund it for that reason. So refurbishing the 29 y/o vehicle would be out of the question, meaning the only option is to replace it with a new or used vehicle.

    The NFPA uses a 25 year serive life as a benchmark or ROT, but there are a host of issues that will determine the service life of apparatus. A big urban area may be 10 years due to the call volume and use & abuse, where a rural department with low call volume and the equipment isn't abused, could get between 25-30 years without a problem. Maybe that used apparatus may get you an additional 15 years, based on its condition. An issue that would have to be explained in the narrative.

    If you are looking at used apparatus (IMO), look at apparatus 10 years or under.
    I just read the PG and saw where it quoted NFPA 1912. I was on my way to go read it and thought I would stop by here first. Glad you saved me the trouble.

    Do you think you could get a 97 or newer for less than $50K or $75K? I don't have a clue what used vehicles are running.

    So since both their engines are over 25 years old then they don't have to take them both out of service do they? I'm sure it would afford them a higher priority, but they have to have something as a back up truck.

    If they go to take their vehicle out of service because of safety reasons and to meet the requirements of the grant, can they keep it as long as they don't use it for firefighting purposes? The vehicle they are looking at replacing is the one and only vehicle their department has ever bought brand new and they want to keep possession of it for sentimental reasons and use it for a parade truck. Is that allowable?

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    You only have to take a truck out of service if it is a safety issue. more accurately if you claim it as a safety issue. Too many people were claiming death trap and then still using the truck. So if they want to keep it in service for whatever reason, just have to explain that end of it, parade piece or extreme reserve.

  19. #19
    Forum Member Not2L84U2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    You only have to take a truck out of service if it is a safety issue. more accurately if you claim it as a safety issue. Too many people were claiming death trap and then still using the truck. So if they want to keep it in service for whatever reason, just have to explain that end of it, parade piece or extreme reserve.
    Gotcha!

    Next question...they found a 1991 Pierce Javelin that was refurbed and retitled in 2000 technically as a Pierce Arrow. So now what year do you consider it? Is it a 2000 or a 1990? Told them that chances are that vehicle won't be around when it comes time for award, but just asking for future knowledge.

  20. #20
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    If it has been retitled with the 2000 it would be considered a 2000.

    That will be the issue with a refurbed/used vehicle. Will it still be around if the grant is awarded. These companies are looking to move them, not hold onto them for a possible sale maybe a year+ from now.

    What was the price for the pump? I'm thinking that finding a pump under 10 years old, in excellent shape etc. will probably go 6 figures at least, depending on what they are looking for.

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