10-11-2007, 12:48 PM #126
If a 28' pumper extension ladder is what you carry on your pumpers, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your firefirefighters to be able to do a safe one-man raise with it. If you carry 24' pumper extension ladders, then setting the bar at raising a 28' or 35' is probably not justified.
OTOH, if you don't expect all of your firefighters to be able to raise alone whatever primary ladder your pumpers carry, you should probably be asking yourself if you're really justified in carrying that heavy a ladder. If you are, you need to be sure that your manpower is such that there will always be at least two firefighters (or more) available to raise it."Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.
10-11-2007, 01:30 PM #127I just want to know if everyone thinks that a 28' should be EXPECTED.
If you carry the ladder properly, meaning that you position yourself in a good balance point to walk to where ever the ladder needs to be placed, is certainly not too much to expect of a firefighter.
If you butt the ladder properly, it is certainly not unreasonable to expect a firefighter to be able to throw it up alone. In the two person raises that we teach, for both a 30 and 35ft extension, an individual person is expected to put more weight up alone than they would with a 28ft. In fact, with the way that we operate in our truck companies, we expect that a 30 or 35ft ground ladder be carried at the same time as the 20ft roof ladder.
In my opinion, I think that it is tougher to put up a 20ft roof ladder than a 24 or 28ft ground.
I don't even know why this is a discussion, unless the goal of it is to lower standards just wee bit more.
This topic kind of reminds me of when the 8lbs fire axes were replaced with the 6lbs on all of our rigs. That happened because the 8lbs axe was considered too 'heavy' for some.
There has to be some expectation that firefighters are able to lift some amount of weight. We can't keep simplifying and lowering some of this stuff.
I'm sorry, if you can't cut it putting up a 28ft ground ladder, by yourself, maybe that's an indicator that this just is not the job for you. I don't want to hear the 'it's the heart of the dog in the fight, not the size' argument, anymore. There has to be some expectation that a person can lift tools and ladders by themselves, and to do so safely.
In the course of my career, there are many things that I have had to do by myself, because of fire ground conditions. It happens, and if a person can't do a task alone, it won't get done. I have seen it first hand.
Last edited by jasper45; 10-11-2007 at 01:38 PM.
10-11-2007, 01:34 PM #128
A training school is, in my opinion, a place for very favorable conditions to be taught and to learn this technique.
If it is learned in a 'safe' environment, such as a fire academy, that will then translate out into the field. It will also enter the 'tool box' a firefighter keeps in their head, and because of that a ladder might go up that might not have other wise.
Who knows what or who that ladder might help.
10-11-2007, 04:01 PM #129
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
10-11-2007, 05:26 PM #130
If that were to be the case, I could actually buy that (no pun intended). Just before I came on the job the switch over was made, and it it coincided with a flurry of recruits who were let go during the training school.
I have even heard the powers that be ask about lighter roof saws than what we currently have, so certain 'firefighters' would be better able to carry them to the roof. Our recent changeover from the old school 5-gallon hand-pump to the pressurized water cans falls into this same category.
I'm talking about my experiences specifically, and not of anywhere else.
10-11-2007, 11:10 PM #131
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
10-12-2007, 12:42 AM #132
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
I've never been taught a two person raise for the 24', and up until recently I had only been taught a two person raise for the 35'. The dept. I work for requires you to do a one person 24' and a two person 35' to pass the academy. You are not allowed to butt it against a building. I've only come across a handful of people who couldn't throw the one person 24', and the most recent was a 4'10" girl who could get it up but couldn't raise the fly on her own, so she was fired for not meeting dept. standards. The only other's I can think of are a couple of volly's who are still pretty young and haven't really trained for it.
Back to the OP, our "approved" method of raising the 24' is as follow's; High shoulder carry to place where you will spot the ladder. Stick one spur into the ground and raise in a "beam raise" method. Once ladder is upright, pivot ladder, so fly is in, lock your knee on the beam and hook the same foot around the beam, with elbows pointing out raise halyard hand over hand with thumbs facing down. Insure pawls are locked, move one foot onto the bottom rung, both hands on both beams, lower ladder into building. Tie ladder off from the rear utilizing the clove hitch, set proper climbing angle and
ensure 4 points of contact. Climb on.
In all reality, at least on my dept. you don't usually have the extra people to do a two or three person carry so it is vital that you can do a one person 24' and two person 35', if you have lots of extra people running around your firegrounds to help do it then by all means utilize a 2 or 3 or 4 person raise, but I would NEVER slow down a rescue or ventilation operation because you don't have a enough personnel to raise a ladder per OSHA or NFPA or even dept. standards. I can all but guarantee you, you will be in much more trouble for standing there next to a 24' ladder while someone burns to death because you were waiting for another person to help you throw the ladder. Just my .02, stay safe.
10-12-2007, 08:42 AM #133
04-26-2013, 05:38 AM #134
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
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05-05-2013, 02:47 PM #135
- Join Date
- Jul 1999
- Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
This was an interesting topic and I just got finished re-reading it. I thought I would add this little gem for the people here who think lifting, carrying, positioning, and raising a 28 foot fire ladder isn't a one person capable job. I am 54 years old, 5'6" tall and maybe a little above average strength. I re-sided my house about 4 years ago and was throwing an old 28 foot, external guides, fire ladder around by myself all day, for a couple of months. Still have it and I had it up several times this winter raking snow off my roof.
My point? If a 54 year old Dude, that is no giant can carry, position, and raise a 28 foot fire ladder by himself why can't some bright, shiny, ambitious, new recruit do it? Too much xBox perhaps?Crazy, but that's how it goes
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05-09-2013, 11:26 AM #136
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Edit: apparently I somehow looked over FL's technique, but it's basically the same as below.
My current volunteer station (I will not generalize it for my entire department) trains on this in the event that you only have a full engine crew (5 people, so preferably you have 2 in, 2 out while the second due is en route) or otherwise limited staffing. I've read the thread and seen there are multiple methods. My preferred method is to throw the ladder fly out into the building then put my dominant foot on the bottom wrong to drive the butt into the ground while raising the halyard using my knee and non-dominant foot to stabilize. However, if you must do it away from the building here's what works for me: throw your ladder against the building at an angle, then grab the halyard, drive the butt into the ground with your dominant foot, bring the ladder to your knee so it is off the building. Using your dominant knee and foot to stabilize the ladder and your non-dominant foot as your "anchor" raise the ladder via the halyard then push the ladder into place. If at anytime you feel uncomfortable with the ladder's stabilization or fire conditions evolve to where you must egress quickly my personal (read not my station, department, or county fire service) thought is to push the ladder into the building and either grab another man if possible, raise it against the building, or egress if necessary. Right, wrong, or indifferent it's how I do it and am comfortable with it.
Last edited by maverik; 05-09-2013 at 11:31 AM.
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