Thread: Scba Reductions

  1. #1
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    Default Scba Reductions

    Just wondering if anyone has recieved a SCBA Reduction letter, and if so can you post what you asked for in terms of dollars, and what they wound up giving you.
    Also if you appealed that would be great also..........

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    30 minutes w/2 bottles has been $5k, 45 min cylinders has been up to $5200. Little more for 1 hour bottles.

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    I can't believe they are asking him for a $1000 a set reduction off a $4400 grant request for 37 sets. I don't know where they are coming from on this! I have seen up to $4800 per set funded this year. Has me baffled for sure.
    Kurt Bradley
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    Definitely doesn't sound right.

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    We are getting our ducks in a row for a full frontal assault come Monday!
    Kurt Bradley
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    One i wrote for a neighbor was awarded at $4,165 for 30minute/spare/mask. 20 sets, plus mobile caxcade and fill station. No reduction letter, first round award. Hope this helps.

    earl

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    Earl, I would love to get a copy of that if possible. That is exactly what one department is looking at, along with a compressor to fill the cascade with. They currently take their bottles 45 minutes out of district to get them refilled.

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    I'll check with the department involved. At least one of their guys will be in the LaPorte seminar, so you'll hear the whole bidding story too.
    earl

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    Default Amounts

    We were awarded $322,056 (total project) in the first round for complete SCBA replacement. The project consists of 56 complete packs (harness, quick connect regulator, facepiece with bag, (2) 45 min/4.5 carbon cylinders, buddy breathing ... the works) for $5359 each unit. It also includes 55 facepieces and bags at $220 each set and 3 complete RIT packs. That was our original proposal and we didn't receive anything hinting at a reduction. We proposed them all inclusive.

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    Must be nice to even get an award for SCBA. I know there are a lot of departments hurting for them but I would be curious as to how many still wear something similar to the old 2A Scotts we still have. Yea we have some 2.2's mixed in but not many and the newest ones came with our last new truck in 99.
    Local 216
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    I have one department that still has all of the packs that they bought in the late 70/ early 80's. They don't have but about 18 structure fires a year, so that was not their priority last time. But it will be this time. They replaced a 1957 model pumper that last time.
    Last edited by Limeforever; 02-11-2007 at 01:42 PM. Reason: Left out data

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    Default I'm not sure of the criteria, but....

    I really wish I knew what criteria they were using to determine reductions. It may be my fault in that I spec'd everything seperately instead of as a whole unit.

    They cut us to $4000 per 45 min pack (4500 lb), HUD, Integrated PASS, buddy breather, etc. $750 per spare cylinder. Less than what we asked for for sure, but way better than nothing so we are working to come up with the extra funding to make up the difference. I admit I did not try to appeal, or plea my case for fear of loosing everything or delaying the grant.

    They may be using a more subjective approach in determining final funding.......I just don't know. It does make it a little difficult for some to come up with a workable budget. But who is complaining? All in all we are going to end up paying more like 10% of the equipment total, rather than the 5%.......but 90% is more than a lot of departments got and I would rather see extra funding go to them. It will be no cakewalk to come up with the extra, but we've ben behind the 8-ball before.
    Joe Fireman

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    Default What about appealing to your vendor??

    Quote Originally Posted by FFCOPEMT View Post
    Less than what we asked for for sure, but way better than nothing so we are working to come up with the extra funding to make up the difference. I admit I did not try to appeal, or plea my case for fear of loosing everything or delaying the grant.
    Can you go to your vendor to get a better price instead of trying to find additional matching funds? If they are about to lose a sale for a few bucks, they might help a bit. I had a similar problem in 2004 using our NJ State Contract pricing, but the vendor went below the number to help us out.
    NCVFC17

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    Default Already been there

    Already did that....we did get a little reduction, but they know they were our best bid and we are not going to turn down the money.

    One of the real problems I have with some of these companies such as SCOTT, is that they only allow a select one or two vendors to cover a specific sales territory. (no competetion) Our main SCOTT vendor here is almost impossible to deal with because they have the market cornered, (plus we have had a load of other problems with them in the past) and I have contacted the regional sales rep for SCOTT to find a way to buy their products using another vendor. The best they could do was to suggest an "industrial service" vendor in a nearby city that "sometimes sells to fire departments"...these guys could have cared less about us and wanted to charge full list price. The rep won't let anyone else sell to us, so it looks like we are going to go with a different vendor. Their loss
    Joe Fireman

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFCOPEMT View Post
    One of the real problems I have with some of these companies such as SCOTT, is that they only allow a select one or two vendors to cover a specific sales territory. (no competetion) Our main SCOTT vendor here is almost impossible to deal with because they have the market cornered, (plus we have had a load of other problems with them in the past) and I have contacted the regional sales rep for SCOTT to find a way to buy their products using another vendor. The best they could do was to suggest an "industrial service" vendor in a nearby city that "sometimes sells to fire departments"...these guys could have cared less about us and wanted to charge full list price. The rep won't let anyone else sell to us, so it looks like we are going to go with a different vendor. Their loss
    Oh what a topic! While I haven't had this issue specific with Scott, we've had multiple other issues with other products. (Gear for this 2006 grant as well)

    What a crock of ****.

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    I know it is really a discussion for another thread, but just think how much the prices for some fire equipment has skyrocketed because of little or no competetion in a specific area. In may ways we are light years behind the norm in today's business world. As a fire service we need to start running our department as a business and less like a golden tax-supported cash cow for many vendors. Don't get me started !!!
    Joe Fireman

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    I just recieved a request from them to drop my grant from $5195 a pack to $5000. Of course I will take it. What am I going to do turn down $131,000. They did not notice that I asked for $450.00 for 100' section of 5" hose. With shipping, this is going to be tight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFCOPEMT View Post
    I know it is really a discussion for another thread, but just think how much the prices for some fire equipment has skyrocketed because of little or no competetion in a specific area. In may ways we are light years behind the norm in today's business world. As a fire service we need to start running our department as a business and less like a golden tax-supported cash cow for many vendors. Don't get me started !!!
    Fire Departments shouldn't be run like businesses, they are businesses. Hence the foundation for a lot of the consulting I do. Anywho...

    I haven't found what you're talking about yet. In most areas of the country there is only 1 vendor per manufacturer. Why? Few customers, so only one business wants to resell anything. Heck, in many areas there is only 1 vendor per type of equipment let alone brand name because some manufacturers don't want to support a reseller in the area. So you either contact the factory for something or go with the brand name in the area. You can't blame the guy that's there for the others not wanting to come in and cover the area. And for someone that seems to have a lot of business knowledge, you seem to think that your vendor isn't allowed to make any profit to pay their salespeople, rent, shippers, etc. The price you're getting from your vendor isn't outrageous by any means, and in fact is lower than what I paid for my last SCBA purchase and I have 3 Scott resellers in my area. And we bought 30 min, not 45 min. So compared to some areas of the country, you're getting a good deal. Heck, I just checked our purchasing co-op and packs are running $4600 with spare for 2216s.

    Now if you've been having customer service issues with them in the past, that's another story. There's no reason for anyone to act like they're the only game in town, but it happens. But no one here works for free, so advocating someone else take a loss on a sale is highly unreasonable. If that means you go to another vendor because you're limited on funding, then so be it. If your vendor doesn't make some profit they go out of business and then you're really going to pay a premium for everything.

    The other issue is the reduction, which is lower than anyone else I've seen. I haven't had a single reduction under $5000/SCBA this year. Some as high at $5200 when we went with 45min bottles. When DHS asks for reductions they have to prove we can buy what we're asking for, for the price they say. So you never have to answer a reduction email immediately, as several of us have been saying for years. You may fight for a week and not get any money back, but at least you argued your case with documentation.

    Ah well, off to the airport again, heading to Indy. Apparently so is a major snowstorm. Hope they give me an H3 again, that would be fun.

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    FFCOPEMT--You're not from Missouri, are you? If so, drop me an email and I'll see if I've got some info to help you out in regards to the Scott Dealer. If you're not, then it's odd that you have the exact same issues I have had to deal with.

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    Default Bids

    We used NY State Conract pricing for our grant proposal. After we were awarded we put the project out to bid. Scott came back almost $62,000 cheaper because of the competitive bidding process than they were on the state contract pricing. Maybe you should put the project out to bid and see if it brings the pricing down for you as well. If you have any questions, contact me via e-mail, ksmith31@frontiernet.net.
    Last edited by ksmith31; 02-12-2007 at 06:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    FFCOPEMT--You're not from Missouri, are you? If so, drop me an email and I'll see if I've got some info to help you out in regards to the Scott Dealer. If you're not, then it's odd that you have the exact same issues I have had to deal with.
    My side hurts.....

    There is another outlet in SW Missouri also - not official, but he can get
    anything Scott. I bet you know the place.

    Surely FirecopEMT is not talking about that one Scott dealer we both know and... Well, love might not be the word.

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    Default Resource for pricing

    The enclosed link provides the discount rates for NJ State Contract pricing on a whole bunch of equipment. If you know the model number of your item and the list price, you can see what we are getting without resorting to competitive bidding. While I won't tell you it is always the best and final price, it gives a good idea of what is a "fair" price based on our Treasury department doing the bidding for us. Might be worth having in your negotiations. Hope this helps.

    http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/purc...ts/t0790.shtml
    NCVFC17

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    Default Not from Missouri

    No, CATCH 22 I am not from Missouri, but Eastern Kansas. We may still be talking about the same vendor though, as they are not a local dealer....more of a larger corporation. They deal in Missouri too, but we just haven't had any luck with them here.

    BC79er: as far as what you said, I can agree with most, except for one thing....I have a local vendor that is just begging SCOTT to let them become a dealer, and SCOTT turns them down time after time because of an exclusivity contract with another vendor. And mind you, the dealer that wants to sell their product is one of the larger distributors in our state, and I am very confident they could double (at least) the business SCOTT does in the area because the vendor that has the contract now does little to represent the product in the area. In fact, they closed their office in our state and they work out of a neighboring state. I realize few people...few vendors, but I will disagree in how we need to start running at least some of the financing if our departments more like a business. For too many years these vendors have jacked up prices, just because an item is being bought by a government entity and they know they have no competetion. We all know the examples I am talking about....and I don't buy the added liability, added safety, added everything arguments....many sell the EXACT same product to non-governmental entities for much less money. Of course there are legitimate price increases every year, but tell me why equipment in the public safety sector increases at a much faster rate than other durable goods on the market? They look at us like a cash cow in many instances, and many of us in the public service have a bad reputation of throwing money around......I'm not talking about the little departments scraping along, but we have all heard the stories of how some department with money spent 2 or 3 times what something was worth for all kinds of reasons. Granted, they are fewer and fewer, but I think as we as department administrators become more fiscally responsible, then the way a lot of these vendors do business will change as well. I plan to let SCOTT know they lost well over $100,000 in packs because they can't find someone to represent their product in our area. Of course the irony here is that the same vendor that we have had trouble with in the past....the very same vendor that hasn't bothered to contact me for 2 years.....called me today when they saw we got a grant. I've got news for them, I am sticking with a vendor that I know will be here every month, ready to service what they sell....and one that has a personal investment in the relationship with our department.
    Last edited by FFCOPEMT; 02-12-2007 at 10:34 PM.
    Joe Fireman

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    ....and one that has a personal investment in the relationship with our department.
    __________________
    I like that statement!
    Kurt Bradley
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    My side hurts.....

    There is another outlet in SW Missouri also - not official, but he can get
    anything Scott. I bet you know the place.

    Surely FirecopEMT is not talking about that one Scott dealer we both know and... Well, love might not be the word.
    I'm sure you know the place, as we've discussed their apparatus. The other outlet wouldn't be the same company hosting Brian's Springfield seminar, would it? Speaking of which, you're not going to happen to be there, are you?

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