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  1. #21
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    Yes, we are considering that. We looked at a recent KME (please no brand bashing, keep it professional) delivery this week, and I noticed two really beefy anchor points on the platform frame assembly.

    The location wasn't very convenient. There is no way you could attach webbing or anything from inside the platform.

    Do you know of any brands that strictly forbid rapelling or use as an anchor point for rescue?


  2. #22
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    Default Platform question

    Command6,

    I don't know the exact model number, but the truck that had a no rappelling sign on it was a Sutphen platform. The department was very disappointed when they learned of the rule (after delivery) because they do have a rope team. Of interest, the manufacture places an eye hook on the bottom of the basket but won't say what it is rated and tells you not to rapel.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetatooisreal View Post
    Command6,

    I don't know the exact model number, but the truck that had a no rappelling sign on it was a Sutphen platform. The department was very disappointed when they learned of the rule (after delivery) because they do have a rope team. Of interest, the manufacture places an eye hook on the bottom of the basket but won't say what it is rated and tells you not to rapel.
    Thanks for the info. I will quiz the Sutphen rep when we meet.

    Oh yea, the ALF is coming to see me this week. They sort of invited themselves to the party you might say, since they weren't on the guest list. But, hey, I am going to listen to what they have to say. The LTI platform is pretty impressive, but I'm not real crazy about truck that rides underneath it. Too many neighbors having problems.

    Another neighboring city has a mix of pumper suppliers, but they are exclusive to Sutphen aerials.

  4. #24
    Forum Member efd281's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Sutphen

    There are two "lifting rings" on the Sutphens that are rated at 250 lbs each. They are for lifting the stokes or a "dead" load. I think that if you look harder, most manufacturers will tell you not to "rappel" as the possibility of a shock load could be bad for the system. It should raise questions if the maker of an aerial rated with a 3:1 safety factor says no and another manufacturer with a 2:1 safety factor says go for it!? Maybe Sutphen is too cautious, maybe the other guys are overly confident. Try them all and question the shock loading.

    Food for thought!!

    Disclaimer: I am a Sutphen Rep., but my opinions are my own.
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    Thanks for the info. I will quiz the Sutphen rep when we meet.

    Oh yea, the ALF is coming to see me this week. They sort of invited themselves to the party you might say, since they weren't on the guest list. But, hey, I am going to listen to what they have to say. The LTI platform is pretty impressive, but I'm not real crazy about truck that rides underneath it. Too many neighbors having problems.

    Another neighboring city has a mix of pumper suppliers, but they are exclusive to Sutphen aerials.
    Kme Fire Apparatus has a 100' Predator cab " DEMO TRUCK " for sale. This truck was parked at our fire house last fall for two days, one of the firefighters is a sales rep for " KME " I think it is selling for $ 720,000 ?
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 05-08-2007 at 07:03 PM.

  6. #26
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    The Alf has two swing out booms on the front of the basket rated at 250lbs each you can use each one as an anchor point giving you 500lb. Also there are brackets that attach to them for carrying a stokes. The ladder attachment for climbing down on parapit roofs is pretty cool too. At the turntable as on all ALF's the hydraulics are true hydraulic not electric over hydraulic like most. This gives the operator excellent control and true feathering capabilities.

    Good luck

  7. #27
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    We have the KME and use the eyes underneath to sling a stokes or set up a high anchor point. You can rappel out of the bucket, but need to use the top 2 rungs as an anchor, not very convenient. We usually only rappel for confidence training or PR, so we anchor the guys underneath and lift them into rappel position

  8. #28
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    The Pierce MM LyfeEye rappelling arms are rated for 300 lbs each. The under-basket rings are rated for 500 lbs each. Note these are specifically designed for a live load, not just a dead lift. That's four anchor points in total, with a total lift capacity up to the 1000 lb rating of the basket itself.

    Pierce allows for 150 lbs of equipment to be mounted on the aerial or in the basket, above the rated load capacity.

    Don't get caught up in the hype of "2.5:1 or 3:1 safety factor", take a good, hard look at the actual numbers themselves. Interesting that some manufacturers brag about having a high safety factor, yet their platforms are rated for much less, particularly when iced up or flowing water; they don't allow for much additional equipment to be mounted without affecting the load capacity; they don't allow live loading (rappelling); and in cases where they do allow loading from basket mounted rings, the numbers aren't always that impressive. You have to look at the big picture and get beyond the advertising hype words and phrases.

    PS - You can get the Pierce without electronic over hydraulic controls or multiplexing.
    Last edited by Chauffer6; 04-08-2007 at 02:04 PM.

  9. #29
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    Default Hype!!!!

    You are right --- why get caught up in the hype when you can just drink the Kool-Aid???!!!! I have run these figures before but here we go again:

    1000 lb rating with a 2.5:1 safety rating = 2500 lbs +150 lbs equipment for a grand total of 2650 lbs.....not bad but................

    1000 lb rating with a 3:1 safety rating = 3000 lbs including equipment

    These are not ratings...only what they are tested to.

    Do ya get what I'm getting at?? The hype IS + equipment + Ice + 35 mph wind.

    Ask why the monitors are center mounted where rescues are best performed?? The twisting forces on a 3 sided boom would be too much. The Sutphen SPH platform also has the options for the stokes arms and the parapet ladder.

    Still my opinions with a few facts tossed out for you to ponder.
    Last edited by efd281; 04-08-2007 at 07:37 PM.
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

  10. #30
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    DING DING..... End of Round 1.

    Return to a neutral corner.

    Where is the pretty bikini girl carrying the sign????

    Anyway, back to the point.

    EFD281,

    Since you are a Sutphen rep, I will ask a few questions.

    What' the difference in the SP and the SPH?

    One of my RRT (Research Recon Teams) has looked at an SPH100. As might be expected, they found likes and dislikes.

    I discussed the apparatus with a team member over coffee this morning.

    LIKES
    The parapet ladder.
    Truck rock solid during low angle maneuvers.
    Build and craftsmanship.
    Cab more "fireman proof". Not a lot of plastic trim in cab.

    DISLIKES
    Side mounted master streams (only allow 15 degree movement).
    Aerial ladder (or escape ladder).
    No automatic setup feature.
    Auto-leveling of the platform very quirky (According to dept, their other
    platforms operate the same way; they say it's something you have to get
    used to).

    Chauffer6,

    I have not demoed a Pierce MM yet, but I have seen a RM.

    LIKES
    Smoothest hydraulics I have ever operated.
    Platform design features
    Paint and finish

    DISLIKES
    Repair parts availability. Order parts is akin to a crap shoot.
    Price.
    Declining quality of workmanship over past decade.

    Not designed to offend anyone here. Just offer some personal experience.

    For the record, both Sutphen and Pierce are under consideration.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII View Post
    Kme Fire Apparatus has a 100' Predator cab " DEMO TRUCK " for sale. This truck was parked at our fire house last fall for two days, one of the firefighters is a sales rep for " KME " I think it is selling for $ 720,000 ?
    Thanks for the photo. According to the E-One dude in Ocala, they have two demo's scheduled to begin production, one in May the other in June.

    I also discovered that ALF has a completed MM DEMO for sale.

    Lots of options. I read in another thread you can save about 10% buying a demo. That's not pocket change.

    BTW, that is an awesome looking rig.

  12. #32
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    Command 6: Are you looking at a Quint or a straight truck? I have yet to see a MM demo that didn't have a pump. We looked at the demo purchase option and found that if we going to buy a 3/4 million dollar truck we did not want someone elses specs. While 50 to 75K might be alot of money, 20 years is a long time to work with a truck that's "not quite what we wanted".

    As I've said here before, take a trip and look at a bunch of these trucks. See what the people like and dislike and get a first hand look at the features. There is a huge amount of hype with regards to the features of these trucks. I suggest having a list of the 10 most important features and actions you want the truck to be able to perform. We did things like:
    -shortest distance from bucket to body w/ bucket on the ground at 90 degress to body.
    -wall to wall turning radius
    -shortest angle over cab (no extended roof)
    -must have lip edge on three sides of the bucket
    -OAL
    -set the angle of departure and angle of approach
    -psi required at inlet to flow 1250 gpm at max height (no pump)
    -must mount a manual stick controlled gun. (this was a big factor as many will not citing danger to the aerial structure, kinda makes you think...)
    -total enclosed compartment space on the body.

  13. #33
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    Here is an ALF demo available. I have run this truck and it is awesome. Excellent approach angle for a 100 foot MM
    Big Power
    2000 gpm pump
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Command 6: Are you looking at a Quint or a straight truck? I have yet to see a MM demo that didn't have a pump. We looked at the demo purchase option and found that if we going to buy a 3/4 million dollar truck we did not want someone elses specs. While 50 to 75K might be alot of money, 20 years is a long time to work with a truck that's "not quite what we wanted".

    As I've said here before, take a trip and look at a bunch of these trucks. See what the people like and dislike and get a first hand look at the features. There is a huge amount of hype with regards to the features of these trucks. I suggest having a list of the 10 most important features and actions you want the truck to be able to perform. We did things like:
    -shortest distance from bucket to body w/ bucket on the ground at 90 degress to body.
    -wall to wall turning radius
    -shortest angle over cab (no extended roof)
    -must have lip edge on three sides of the bucket
    -OAL
    -set the angle of departure and angle of approach
    -psi required at inlet to flow 1250 gpm at max height (no pump)
    -must mount a manual stick controlled gun. (this was a big factor as many will not citing danger to the aerial structure, kinda makes you think...)
    -total enclosed compartment space on the body.
    Our department will get a quint by definition (aerial device, 300g water, 1500gpm pump), but it will be used as a ladder company. Or more specifically, a rescue ladder. Or current rig has >200 cu.ft. of compartment space, carries high angle and extrication equipment. That amount of compartment space is something that will be tough to match with a MM.

    We have sub-divided the truck committee into research teams to investigate and talk with owners of specific apparatus, This allows 2-3 members of the committee to become very familiar with certain brands. Then we are going to come back to a round table discussion and discuss what we like and dislike about what we saw. Hopefully, this will allow us to create a "short list" of preferred vendors.

    We are also creating an evaluation matrix with about 20 scoring areas to help us determine areas of strength and weakness in each manufacturer and compare them to the competition. Many of the categories you mentioned are on our matrix. Also. set up time, outrigger spread, operational range (in degrees), platform lighting, and others.

    On the demo subject, I am receiving pressure from above to get a set of specs ready by Jul 1, and the exploratory truck committee was just formed 3 weeks ago. Also, city hall wants to purchase early in the budget year, and with most manufacturers quoting a 300+ day build time, that was the reason for even considering the demo option. Personally, I agree with you. The frustration of an ill-adapted apparatus will linger long after the memory of the discount price has faded.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurphysFireKC View Post
    Here is an ALF demo available. I have run this truck and it is awesome. Excellent approach angle for a 100 foot MM
    Big Power
    2000 gpm pump
    I was made aware of this apparatus this week.

    What are you likes and dislikes having been an operator.

    I would consider an ALF MM,

    EXCEPT:

    The dealer repair center is absolutely deplorable. Very recent first-hand experience includes sub-standard work, failure to accept responsibility for incomplete repairs, a service manager that is rude and has never heard the phrase "customer service". Upon return from the repair center, the apparatus was taken to the city garage where the fleet services manager pointed out to me components that we not reattached following repairs and a hydraulic leak that was absolutely their fault they refused to consider might be their responsibility.

    And then there is the issue of an aerial we have that has been out of service since JAN 24, 2007, awaiting a ruling from the ALF engineering gurus before we can place it back in service.

    UGGGH. Now my BP is up again!!!!

    Anyway, we intend to resolve this issue with a capitalistic approach. As long as ____________ American LaFrance is our dealer service center, it is our intention not to use them as a supplier of fire apparatus in our community.

  16. #36
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    As with any brand of apparatus issues (and they all have them) the dealer/service center can make a huge difference. I hope you get your issues addressed soon.

    I put a lot of miles on it and the truck handeled like a pumper. The Aerial is very easy to operate. The basket can be run from three different positions. The stokes attachment location makes for ease of use and still have egress on either side of the basket. You only need to deploy 13 or maybe it was 15 feet of ladder to put the platform on the ground when out to the side. The lighting on and around the basket 110v and 12v. The head room in the cab on a standard cab is impressive. Very smooth hydraulics. A lot of compartment space.

  17. #37
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    Default SP vs SPH

    The most noticable differences are that the SPH has a larger platform and the compartments that extend to below the bucket. The SPH is a more "multiplexed" aerial than the SP. I am not sure why your RRT did not like the climbing ladder? I have climbed many Sutphen aerials and found them to be more than adequate!? As for the leveling, that is due to the fact that the bucket pivots are mounted above the center of gravity for the bucket. If your leveling system were to fail, you could open a valve and the bucket would swing like a ferris wheel seat as opposed to being either froze in position or , in a catastrophic failure, dump over forward. It is a little jerky due to the fact that is works off of a mercury levelling switch. Once you get used to it you will hardly even notice.

    Good luck with your hunting!!!
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

  18. #38
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    Our department will get a quint by definition (aerial device, 300g water, 1500gpm pump), but it will be used as a ladder company. Or more specifically, a rescue ladder. Or current rig has >200 cu.ft. of compartment space, carries high angle and extrication equipment. That amount of compartment space is something that will be tough to match with a MM.
    Our MM ALF ended up with 316 cuft. of enclosed storage but it did not have a pump or tank and we did away with both officers side access ladders. None of the other companies offered over 300 cuft. Scope has a 300 cuft. body but its sides are high which reduces its scrub area low off the side. KME was next closest with 288 cuft. but again, we were talking no pump or tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    We have sub-divided the truck committee into research teams to investigate and talk with owners of specific apparatus, This allows 2-3 members of the committee to become very familiar with certain brands. Then we are going to come back to a round table discussion and discuss what we like and dislike about what we saw. Hopefully, this will allow us to create a "short list" of preferred vendors.
    Sounds like a good way to cover alot of ground ina short amount of time. Good luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    We are also creating an evaluation matrix with about 20 scoring areas to help us determine areas of strength and weakness in each manufacturer and compare them to the competition. Many of the categories you mentioned are on our matrix. Also. set up time, outrigger spread, operational range (in degrees), platform lighting, and others.
    A quick review of our final comparision does show we have more than 10 points, though the original 10 were based on our priorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    On the demo subject, I am receiving pressure from above to get a set of specs ready by Jul 1, and the exploratory truck committee was just formed 3 weeks ago. Also, city hall wants to purchase early in the budget year, and with most manufacturers quoting a 300+ day build time, that was the reason for even considering the demo option. Personally, I agree with you. The frustration of an ill-adapted apparatus will linger long after the memory of the discount price has faded.
    We shot for 275 days and only two could do it. ALF said 300 but ended up more like 360 and we can split the blame between us. To bad about your local ALF service as given the details you've alluded to here, its likely they can score high and at a fairly decent price. But, service after the sale has to be one of the top facotrs in any decision. Otherwise the truck has to be perfect. Thus far ours has only minor bugs to be worked out and we'll keep our fingers crossed that it remains this way.

  19. #39
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    Default ALF hose bed

    Quote Originally Posted by MurphysFireKC View Post
    As with any brand of apparatus issues (and they all have them) the dealer/service center can make a huge difference. I hope you get your issues addressed soon.

    I put a lot of miles on it and the truck handeled like a pumper. The Aerial is very easy to operate. The basket can be run from three different positions. The stokes attachment location makes for ease of use and still have egress on either side of the basket. You only need to deploy 13 or maybe it was 15 feet of ladder to put the platform on the ground when out to the side. The lighting on and around the basket 110v and 12v. The head room in the cab on a standard cab is impressive. Very smooth hydraulics. A lot of compartment space.
    What I really like from the photos is the location of the supply hose compartment. No climbing on the truck or having ti raise the aerial device to repack hose. That should also add to compartment space topside.

    However, can see that thing dragging off and laying in the street at some point in its lifetime.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by efd281 View Post
    The most noticable differences are that the SPH has a larger platform and the compartments that extend to below the bucket. The SPH is a more "multiplexed" aerial than the SP. I am not sure why your RRT did not like the climbing ladder? I have climbed many Sutphen aerials and found them to be more than adequate!? As for the leveling, that is due to the fact that the bucket pivots are mounted above the center of gravity for the bucket. If your leveling system were to fail, you could open a valve and the bucket would swing like a ferris wheel seat as opposed to being either froze in position or , in a catastrophic failure, dump over forward. It is a little jerky due to the fact that is works off of a mercury levelling switch. Once you get used to it you will hardly even notice.

    Good luck with your hunting!!!
    Thanks for the explanation of the pivot point on the platform.

    The RRT said the low profile and openness of the side rails sort of took away some of the confidence and feeling of security of climbing in between a conventional aerial ladder. In their words, Granny might need a bit more coaxing to descend the Sutphen.

    So Sutphen does offer multiplexing? On the whole truck or portions?

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