1. #26
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    The Alf has two swing out booms on the front of the basket rated at 250lbs each you can use each one as an anchor point giving you 500lb. Also there are brackets that attach to them for carrying a stokes. The ladder attachment for climbing down on parapit roofs is pretty cool too. At the turntable as on all ALF's the hydraulics are true hydraulic not electric over hydraulic like most. This gives the operator excellent control and true feathering capabilities.

    Good luck

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    We have the KME and use the eyes underneath to sling a stokes or set up a high anchor point. You can rappel out of the bucket, but need to use the top 2 rungs as an anchor, not very convenient. We usually only rappel for confidence training or PR, so we anchor the guys underneath and lift them into rappel position

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    The Pierce MM LyfeEye rappelling arms are rated for 300 lbs each. The under-basket rings are rated for 500 lbs each. Note these are specifically designed for a live load, not just a dead lift. That's four anchor points in total, with a total lift capacity up to the 1000 lb rating of the basket itself.

    Pierce allows for 150 lbs of equipment to be mounted on the aerial or in the basket, above the rated load capacity.

    Don't get caught up in the hype of "2.5:1 or 3:1 safety factor", take a good, hard look at the actual numbers themselves. Interesting that some manufacturers brag about having a high safety factor, yet their platforms are rated for much less, particularly when iced up or flowing water; they don't allow for much additional equipment to be mounted without affecting the load capacity; they don't allow live loading (rappelling); and in cases where they do allow loading from basket mounted rings, the numbers aren't always that impressive. You have to look at the big picture and get beyond the advertising hype words and phrases.

    PS - You can get the Pierce without electronic over hydraulic controls or multiplexing.
    Last edited by Chauffer6; 04-08-2007 at 03:04 PM.

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    Default Hype!!!!

    You are right --- why get caught up in the hype when you can just drink the Kool-Aid???!!!! I have run these figures before but here we go again:

    1000 lb rating with a 2.5:1 safety rating = 2500 lbs +150 lbs equipment for a grand total of 2650 lbs.....not bad but................

    1000 lb rating with a 3:1 safety rating = 3000 lbs including equipment

    These are not ratings...only what they are tested to.

    Do ya get what I'm getting at?? The hype IS + equipment + Ice + 35 mph wind.

    Ask why the monitors are center mounted where rescues are best performed?? The twisting forces on a 3 sided boom would be too much. The Sutphen SPH platform also has the options for the stokes arms and the parapet ladder.

    Still my opinions with a few facts tossed out for you to ponder.
    Last edited by efd281; 04-08-2007 at 08:37 PM.
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    DING DING..... End of Round 1.

    Return to a neutral corner.

    Where is the pretty bikini girl carrying the sign????

    Anyway, back to the point.

    EFD281,

    Since you are a Sutphen rep, I will ask a few questions.

    What' the difference in the SP and the SPH?

    One of my RRT (Research Recon Teams) has looked at an SPH100. As might be expected, they found likes and dislikes.

    I discussed the apparatus with a team member over coffee this morning.

    LIKES
    The parapet ladder.
    Truck rock solid during low angle maneuvers.
    Build and craftsmanship.
    Cab more "fireman proof". Not a lot of plastic trim in cab.

    DISLIKES
    Side mounted master streams (only allow 15 degree movement).
    Aerial ladder (or escape ladder).
    No automatic setup feature.
    Auto-leveling of the platform very quirky (According to dept, their other
    platforms operate the same way; they say it's something you have to get
    used to).

    Chauffer6,

    I have not demoed a Pierce MM yet, but I have seen a RM.

    LIKES
    Smoothest hydraulics I have ever operated.
    Platform design features
    Paint and finish

    DISLIKES
    Repair parts availability. Order parts is akin to a crap shoot.
    Price.
    Declining quality of workmanship over past decade.

    Not designed to offend anyone here. Just offer some personal experience.

    For the record, both Sutphen and Pierce are under consideration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII View Post
    Kme Fire Apparatus has a 100' Predator cab " DEMO TRUCK " for sale. This truck was parked at our fire house last fall for two days, one of the firefighters is a sales rep for " KME " I think it is selling for $ 720,000 ?
    Thanks for the photo. According to the E-One dude in Ocala, they have two demo's scheduled to begin production, one in May the other in June.

    I also discovered that ALF has a completed MM DEMO for sale.

    Lots of options. I read in another thread you can save about 10% buying a demo. That's not pocket change.

    BTW, that is an awesome looking rig.

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    Command 6: Are you looking at a Quint or a straight truck? I have yet to see a MM demo that didn't have a pump. We looked at the demo purchase option and found that if we going to buy a 3/4 million dollar truck we did not want someone elses specs. While 50 to 75K might be alot of money, 20 years is a long time to work with a truck that's "not quite what we wanted".

    As I've said here before, take a trip and look at a bunch of these trucks. See what the people like and dislike and get a first hand look at the features. There is a huge amount of hype with regards to the features of these trucks. I suggest having a list of the 10 most important features and actions you want the truck to be able to perform. We did things like:
    -shortest distance from bucket to body w/ bucket on the ground at 90 degress to body.
    -wall to wall turning radius
    -shortest angle over cab (no extended roof)
    -must have lip edge on three sides of the bucket
    -OAL
    -set the angle of departure and angle of approach
    -psi required at inlet to flow 1250 gpm at max height (no pump)
    -must mount a manual stick controlled gun. (this was a big factor as many will not citing danger to the aerial structure, kinda makes you think...)
    -total enclosed compartment space on the body.

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    Here is an ALF demo available. I have run this truck and it is awesome. Excellent approach angle for a 100 foot MM
    Big Power
    2000 gpm pump
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Command 6: Are you looking at a Quint or a straight truck? I have yet to see a MM demo that didn't have a pump. We looked at the demo purchase option and found that if we going to buy a 3/4 million dollar truck we did not want someone elses specs. While 50 to 75K might be alot of money, 20 years is a long time to work with a truck that's "not quite what we wanted".

    As I've said here before, take a trip and look at a bunch of these trucks. See what the people like and dislike and get a first hand look at the features. There is a huge amount of hype with regards to the features of these trucks. I suggest having a list of the 10 most important features and actions you want the truck to be able to perform. We did things like:
    -shortest distance from bucket to body w/ bucket on the ground at 90 degress to body.
    -wall to wall turning radius
    -shortest angle over cab (no extended roof)
    -must have lip edge on three sides of the bucket
    -OAL
    -set the angle of departure and angle of approach
    -psi required at inlet to flow 1250 gpm at max height (no pump)
    -must mount a manual stick controlled gun. (this was a big factor as many will not citing danger to the aerial structure, kinda makes you think...)
    -total enclosed compartment space on the body.
    Our department will get a quint by definition (aerial device, 300g water, 1500gpm pump), but it will be used as a ladder company. Or more specifically, a rescue ladder. Or current rig has >200 cu.ft. of compartment space, carries high angle and extrication equipment. That amount of compartment space is something that will be tough to match with a MM.

    We have sub-divided the truck committee into research teams to investigate and talk with owners of specific apparatus, This allows 2-3 members of the committee to become very familiar with certain brands. Then we are going to come back to a round table discussion and discuss what we like and dislike about what we saw. Hopefully, this will allow us to create a "short list" of preferred vendors.

    We are also creating an evaluation matrix with about 20 scoring areas to help us determine areas of strength and weakness in each manufacturer and compare them to the competition. Many of the categories you mentioned are on our matrix. Also. set up time, outrigger spread, operational range (in degrees), platform lighting, and others.

    On the demo subject, I am receiving pressure from above to get a set of specs ready by Jul 1, and the exploratory truck committee was just formed 3 weeks ago. Also, city hall wants to purchase early in the budget year, and with most manufacturers quoting a 300+ day build time, that was the reason for even considering the demo option. Personally, I agree with you. The frustration of an ill-adapted apparatus will linger long after the memory of the discount price has faded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MurphysFireKC View Post
    Here is an ALF demo available. I have run this truck and it is awesome. Excellent approach angle for a 100 foot MM
    Big Power
    2000 gpm pump
    I was made aware of this apparatus this week.

    What are you likes and dislikes having been an operator.

    I would consider an ALF MM,

    EXCEPT:

    The dealer repair center is absolutely deplorable. Very recent first-hand experience includes sub-standard work, failure to accept responsibility for incomplete repairs, a service manager that is rude and has never heard the phrase "customer service". Upon return from the repair center, the apparatus was taken to the city garage where the fleet services manager pointed out to me components that we not reattached following repairs and a hydraulic leak that was absolutely their fault they refused to consider might be their responsibility.

    And then there is the issue of an aerial we have that has been out of service since JAN 24, 2007, awaiting a ruling from the ALF engineering gurus before we can place it back in service.

    UGGGH. Now my BP is up again!!!!

    Anyway, we intend to resolve this issue with a capitalistic approach. As long as ____________ American LaFrance is our dealer service center, it is our intention not to use them as a supplier of fire apparatus in our community.

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    As with any brand of apparatus issues (and they all have them) the dealer/service center can make a huge difference. I hope you get your issues addressed soon.

    I put a lot of miles on it and the truck handeled like a pumper. The Aerial is very easy to operate. The basket can be run from three different positions. The stokes attachment location makes for ease of use and still have egress on either side of the basket. You only need to deploy 13 or maybe it was 15 feet of ladder to put the platform on the ground when out to the side. The lighting on and around the basket 110v and 12v. The head room in the cab on a standard cab is impressive. Very smooth hydraulics. A lot of compartment space.

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    Default SP vs SPH

    The most noticable differences are that the SPH has a larger platform and the compartments that extend to below the bucket. The SPH is a more "multiplexed" aerial than the SP. I am not sure why your RRT did not like the climbing ladder? I have climbed many Sutphen aerials and found them to be more than adequate!? As for the leveling, that is due to the fact that the bucket pivots are mounted above the center of gravity for the bucket. If your leveling system were to fail, you could open a valve and the bucket would swing like a ferris wheel seat as opposed to being either froze in position or , in a catastrophic failure, dump over forward. It is a little jerky due to the fact that is works off of a mercury levelling switch. Once you get used to it you will hardly even notice.

    Good luck with your hunting!!!
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    Our department will get a quint by definition (aerial device, 300g water, 1500gpm pump), but it will be used as a ladder company. Or more specifically, a rescue ladder. Or current rig has >200 cu.ft. of compartment space, carries high angle and extrication equipment. That amount of compartment space is something that will be tough to match with a MM.
    Our MM ALF ended up with 316 cuft. of enclosed storage but it did not have a pump or tank and we did away with both officers side access ladders. None of the other companies offered over 300 cuft. Scope has a 300 cuft. body but its sides are high which reduces its scrub area low off the side. KME was next closest with 288 cuft. but again, we were talking no pump or tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    We have sub-divided the truck committee into research teams to investigate and talk with owners of specific apparatus, This allows 2-3 members of the committee to become very familiar with certain brands. Then we are going to come back to a round table discussion and discuss what we like and dislike about what we saw. Hopefully, this will allow us to create a "short list" of preferred vendors.
    Sounds like a good way to cover alot of ground ina short amount of time. Good luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    We are also creating an evaluation matrix with about 20 scoring areas to help us determine areas of strength and weakness in each manufacturer and compare them to the competition. Many of the categories you mentioned are on our matrix. Also. set up time, outrigger spread, operational range (in degrees), platform lighting, and others.
    A quick review of our final comparision does show we have more than 10 points, though the original 10 were based on our priorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    On the demo subject, I am receiving pressure from above to get a set of specs ready by Jul 1, and the exploratory truck committee was just formed 3 weeks ago. Also, city hall wants to purchase early in the budget year, and with most manufacturers quoting a 300+ day build time, that was the reason for even considering the demo option. Personally, I agree with you. The frustration of an ill-adapted apparatus will linger long after the memory of the discount price has faded.
    We shot for 275 days and only two could do it. ALF said 300 but ended up more like 360 and we can split the blame between us. To bad about your local ALF service as given the details you've alluded to here, its likely they can score high and at a fairly decent price. But, service after the sale has to be one of the top facotrs in any decision. Otherwise the truck has to be perfect. Thus far ours has only minor bugs to be worked out and we'll keep our fingers crossed that it remains this way.

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    Default ALF hose bed

    Quote Originally Posted by MurphysFireKC View Post
    As with any brand of apparatus issues (and they all have them) the dealer/service center can make a huge difference. I hope you get your issues addressed soon.

    I put a lot of miles on it and the truck handeled like a pumper. The Aerial is very easy to operate. The basket can be run from three different positions. The stokes attachment location makes for ease of use and still have egress on either side of the basket. You only need to deploy 13 or maybe it was 15 feet of ladder to put the platform on the ground when out to the side. The lighting on and around the basket 110v and 12v. The head room in the cab on a standard cab is impressive. Very smooth hydraulics. A lot of compartment space.
    What I really like from the photos is the location of the supply hose compartment. No climbing on the truck or having ti raise the aerial device to repack hose. That should also add to compartment space topside.

    However, can see that thing dragging off and laying in the street at some point in its lifetime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by efd281 View Post
    The most noticable differences are that the SPH has a larger platform and the compartments that extend to below the bucket. The SPH is a more "multiplexed" aerial than the SP. I am not sure why your RRT did not like the climbing ladder? I have climbed many Sutphen aerials and found them to be more than adequate!? As for the leveling, that is due to the fact that the bucket pivots are mounted above the center of gravity for the bucket. If your leveling system were to fail, you could open a valve and the bucket would swing like a ferris wheel seat as opposed to being either froze in position or , in a catastrophic failure, dump over forward. It is a little jerky due to the fact that is works off of a mercury levelling switch. Once you get used to it you will hardly even notice.

    Good luck with your hunting!!!
    Thanks for the explanation of the pivot point on the platform.

    The RRT said the low profile and openness of the side rails sort of took away some of the confidence and feeling of security of climbing in between a conventional aerial ladder. In their words, Granny might need a bit more coaxing to descend the Sutphen.

    So Sutphen does offer multiplexing? On the whole truck or portions?

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    Default E-One 95' MM

    The city of Perth Amboy, New Jersey took delivery of there new 2006 E-One platform last year. The quint has a 2000 gpm pump,300gal water tank and is very well liked by the firefighters. This truck replaced a 1987 seagrave 100' Med duty rear mount stick,no pump -or-tank or pre-piped waterway!... They now have a real firefighting tool with dual monitors.
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 09-04-2007 at 08:03 PM.

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    Whole Truck Multiplexing is in the works. The aerial your RRT saw must have been the "low rail" model which is offered in areas where extremely short trucks are needed. The "high rail" models have a side rail just as high as anyone elses. But.....hopefully your guys will bring "Granny" down in the bucket!!!!
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    One thing to think twice about is dual monitors gents. If you are worried about equipment weight in the platform, lose the second monitor and nozzle in your specs. The only real purpose of a dual gun set up in the platform is to flow in two separate directions. Realistically how often does that happen? The disadvantages of two monitors (extra $$$, obstruction, weight, limited travel, and on and on) are usually more numerous. They usually far outweigh any possible benefits. TL

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    [QUOTE=SSIaerialmanTIM;795450]One thing to think twice about is dual monitors gents. If you are worried about equipment weight in the platform, lose the second monitor and nozzle in your specs. The only real purpose of a dual gun set up in the platform is to flow in two separate directions. Realistically how often does that happen?

    Actually I have seen several times where two master streams would have come in handy.

    I can think of one big reason. At least in my area, you'd be hard pressed to find the water supply for one 1000gpm monitor, let alone two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII View Post
    The city of Perth Amboy, New Jersey took delivery of there new 2006 E-One platform last year. The quint has a 2000 gpm pump,300gal water tank and is very well liked by the firefighters. This truck replaced a 1987 seagrave 100' Med duty rear mount stick,no pump -or-tank or pre-piped waterway!... They now have a real firefighting tool with dual monitors.
    Having been first due a couple of times on residential fires while assigned to a ladder, that 300 gallons of water can sure come in handy until the calvary arrives.

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    Lightbulb

    We spoke to a person at Perth Amboy to discuss the E-One tower, when we were scouting. Suffice it to say, we listened and bought something else.

    On the dual guns. We too, skipped the second gun much to ALF's suprise? We couldn't think of any real tactical advantage. We were happy to plan on the one tower gun and our second and 3rd due aerials, plus deck pipes and portable monitors. The guns are not cheap and given the real need we opted to use the money elsewhere(3K+). Dual guns are another trinket feeature that seems to be standard on demo trucks. What's the inlet pressure required to flow 2000 gpm at full 95-100 ft. elevation? Does this exceed the hose operating pressure? We had to get "attack rated LDH" to flow 1250 gpm to the nozzle with 300 ft. between the engine and the truck. How realisitic is 2000 gpm?

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    Question general idea

    I have been to allot of communities all over the US & Canada and I would say the "average" is that most have 60-80 PSI on hydrants with mains of sufficient size to flow between 1100 and 1550 GPM out of a pipe 90' to 100' tall at elevations above 60 degrees. This is assuming you have the Quint supplying its own pipe with it's own single stage pump of 1250 to 1750 USGPM rating, and a supply line to the hydrant of no more than 50' usually. I am NOT speaking of a pumper supplying an aerial inlet or a pumper relaying to the trucks on board pump.

    On said Quint, the truck's pump pressure will be 175 psi to upwards of 230+ psi (in my example above which is fairly open ended with respect to variables).

    I will admit I have done this many times, but what I have not done many many times is supplied the aerial inlet with an external pumper. I have only done that a few times on the street - less than 20. However this is your "general" answer I believe if this is what you are asking. If you supply the aerial inlet from an external pumper and want flows over 1100 GPM at 90' to 100' above 60 degrees elevation; it will take approx. 180 psi to slightly OVER the rated pressure of most LDH assuming the LDH length feeding the truck is 25' to 50' long. At 300' of supply line you are definately over the rating of the LDH.

    One thing to note - just like anything else - LDH has a "safety factor" and I have never had relatively new LDH burst above it's rated pressure and plenty of times I have had pressures in LDH exceeding 235 PSI. I have even had it over 260+ psi and still not had a problem. BUT THIS WAS NEW HOSE.

    I would ask the LDH mfg. what their "safety factor" is. And then there is department SOP and etc.

    In my own experience, I have only flowed upwards of 1700-1850 GPM at those angles and aerial extensions on quints using the trucks onboard pump. To flow above 1600 GPM with said Quint, it has been my experience that the hydrant should have 85+ psi and the line to the hydrant 50' or less -and at those flows you are pretty much above 260 psi + pump pres. on the quint with its own pump.

    My apologies to the friction loss and formula gurus here. After I quit working for UL I came to the broad conclusion that if you can bring my aerial the water (hydrant of sufficient mains and pressure) - I CAN FLOW IT (from the on board pump).

    By the way - cracking open a possible second monitor at those high flows, angles and extensions will not "appreciably" decrease the needed pump pressure - in my humble opinion.

    In closing I would say LDH between the pumper and the aerial inlet is your only "weak link" on most modern aerials with permanent waterways during high flows at full extensions and elevations (especially if you have to use more than 100') and I would never voluntarily go that route over using a quints onboard pump during high flows with the exception of either for training purposes OR a possible relay to the trucks pump in a real scenario. TL

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII
    The city of Perth Amboy, New Jersey took delivery of there new 2006 E-One platform last year. The quint has a 2000 gpm pump,300gal water tank and is very well liked by the firefighters.
    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02
    We spoke to a person at Perth Amboy to discuss the E-One tower, when we were scouting. Suffice it to say, we listened and bought something else.

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    If I had to do over again I'd skip the 2nd gun too. I'd opt for a single, stick controlled gun. We have found on a number of occasions that a single 800 or so GPM stream at a higher pressure does a great job of getting in, opening up and reaching the fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffer6 View Post
    Not sure where you were going with this but I'll atleast say we spoke to only one person on the phone so I can't verify his credentials or motives. If the majority of Firefighters are happy, then that is good.

    SSIaerialmanTIM: All makes sense to me. My point on the LDH and water supply was directly related to non-quint apparatus.

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