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    Default Where do you see the firefighting profession in the future?

    Where do you see our field going in the next 20 or 30 years ago. Its weird I ask this question but what triggered it was I was watching a show where they were building a building and showing the fire standards of today against the fire codes back 40 years ago.

    Basically what i'm wondering is if there will be a need for as many firefighters in the future with all the new codes and standards in place

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    Simple answer....Yes. Even though a building today (tomorrow) is built stronger and able to withstand fire, the contents inside will still burn. Also...money is always tried to be saved and you see things that are cheaper (trusses, glued truss so on) these tend not to withstand a fire load as well. Even if the building material is non combustible and the contents (made with many synthetics) are on fire how well will that building material stand up to the heat. And lets not forget the rescue aspects that are still there.

    Sad part is that engineers, designers, city administrators will see this as a way to reduce FF staffing. Unfortunately it will probablly take a life of one of our own for them to see that was not the best answer.

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    Ok, I'll bite.

    First of all, there will always be a need for firefighters as long as there are stupid people, accidents, and design flaws in things. And face it, $hit happens too! I think the current trend of the occurance of fires will continue to go down, but it will never go away. There will be many more advances in building construction and materials to make it more fire retardant. This will also increase the danger to firefighters with more light weight construction for building collapses too. I think you will see improvements in fire and smoke detection, maybe even a few more laws requiring sprinkler systems.

    I would predict that the fire service as a whole will slowly shift to an "all hazards and services" type of department. More public service type stuff that is not classically associated with the fire department. We already are heading this way. For example, my department handles lock outs of a couple different assisted living places. If they lock themselves out, we will use our lock box key to let them back in. Happens every once in a while. I see less and less fires occuring but the fires that do happen would be more of the big one type. I see more hazmat, more ems, and anti-terrorism type activities of the fire service.

    I could also imagine there would be more advancements in the science of firefighting. Better extinguishing agents, improved equipment, and improved delivery systems. Maybe one day we will pull up to a house fire, toss in a couple "grenade" type deals, and the fire goes out!

    Again, I don't see the fire service ever going away. What's going to happen in 30-50 years when all the new pre-fab homes and "light- weight" construction houses and appartment buildings get old and start burning down? I do see the job description changing a bit.
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    Heard a quote while watching reruns of that 80's show Airwolf:

    "Obsolete is a word that gets tossed around quite a bit. You know what I've found? We still dig holes with shovels."

    Firefighters were thought to be a thing of the past when "fireproof" brick & steel buildings came about. That was what? 100 years ago? Only a politician could ever think such a valuable thing would ever become obsolete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I would predict that the fire service as a whole will slowly shift to an "all hazards and services" type of department. More public service type stuff that is not classically associated with the fire department. We already are heading this way. For example, my department handles lock outs of a couple different assisted living places. If they lock themselves out, we will use our lock box key to let them back in. Happens every once in a while. I see less and less fires occuring but the fires that do happen would be more of the big one type. I see more hazmat, more ems, and anti-terrorism type activities of the fire service.
    So you propose that we begin doing the work of plumbers, locksmiths and other people who are looking to support their familes by undercutting their line of work in the Private sector? The only reason we open locks if there is an emergent situation behind that door, (ie., EMS-assit entry, food on the stove, young children trapped on the otherside...etc.)

    It is simply amazing how many of you guys will do everything but focus on your job. You've become nothing but whores who will do anything (anyone asks of you no matter how absurd it is), but articulate why our jobs are important enough and an increase BS feel good Brunnacini duties are uncalled for. Focus on drilling and maintainnig your skills if you have nothing else to do.

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    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-15-2007 at 11:44 AM.

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    I can sum it up in one word...ARSON.

    People will always find a way to burn something down. About 80% of our fires down here are arson. Even with protective measures in place such as sprinklers, alarms or better quality building material with fire walls or fire resistant material; arsonists will always find a way around it.
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    40 years from now? It won't be as different as some people will want you to beleive. The buildings in your district will still be there except they will be 40 years older. Yeh sure some will be torn down and technology buildings will take its place, but for the most part what you see now will still be there with new paint and new facades.

    I do beleive we will be wearing different ensambles. Maybe a fully encapsulated suit. Maybe like a fire and heat resistant haz-mat suit with more mobility. I think all air masks will have thermal imaging in them. Cool vests will be standard, but made from a different material.

    Then again maybe nothing will change at all! Remember we a firefighters and we hate change!!! We won't look cool anymore if the outfit changes!
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    thanks for all the replies. I'm just trying to decide if this is the right career for me. I hear so many different things from different people.

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    40's year from now, what will be different?


    Overcrowding will worsen and cheapened construction will become rampant.... thus creating more hostile fire conditions.

    Can you say Haz-Mat?

    Think back 40 years ago....

    Was there any many deadly chemical's back then conversing the American highways as there are now?

    Now, picture another 40 years into the future and think of what it will be like.

    So yes, there will always be a need for firefighter's...

    Only problem now is that most cities want them to be a jack of all trades and that will probably worsen....

    But, only time will tell...

    Twenty years from now, we will probably be doing the water department's job too.


    And to quote FFFRED...
    only reason we open locks if there is an emergent situation behind that door
    I wish that was true for many....

    But, most try to view the ones who call as Customer's and customer service is important.

    IF they arent happy... then they will not vote your bond in the next election.

    It doesnt matter that you are taking away supper from the table for some poor locksmith..... what matters is that the customer is happy.

    Sad sad times

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    At the 1939 World's Fair, it was predicted that we would have flying cars by the 1980's...

    The five biggest causes of fire are men, women, children, stupidity and arson.

    Most of the answers here are right on... but I do differ with FFFred on the trades issue. Like FFFred stated earlier in his post...

    The only reason we open locks if there is an emergent situation behind that door, (ie., EMS-assit entry, food on the stove, young children trapped on the otherside...etc.)
    I agree with this, but when we get a call for a single or two family owner occupied residential lockout, we will first see if we can get in through an unlocked window or use the smoke ejector hanger to gently spread the jamb enough to allow us access to the door striker. If we cannot, then we tell the [people they should call a locksmith. We also tell them that yes, we can "break in".. bitut the locksmith is cheaper than repairing the damage. We also have them sign a waiver.

    Commercial and buildings.. we scope out the situation and advise them to call the property manager. Car lockouts are done only when the vehicle is running with a child or animal inside.

    If we get a call for a water leak and we can stop the leak by shutting off the water.. we do it.. then advise the resident to call a plumber.

    In a department the size of the FDNY, you can probably deflect these types os service calls. In most small and medium sized FD's, you can't. We don't get all that many calls for lockouts ( I think we did a total of 50 for the year), so it isn't that much of a burden on us.
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    Default Lock-outs

    He (Dickey) specifically stated that the places they assist on lock-outs are assisted-living places. I am not sure how an assisted living place ends up locked out, but assuming it happens, should elderly people who cannot care for themselves be left to wait while the locksmith comes? It seems to me that this situation is pretty analogous to a child lock-in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    So you propose that we begin doing the work of plumbers, locksmiths and other people who are looking to support their familes by undercutting their line of work in the Private sector? The only reason we open locks if there is an emergent situation behind that door, (ie., EMS-assit entry, food on the stove, young children trapped on the otherside...etc.)

    It is simply amazing how many of you guys will do everything but focus on your job. You've become nothing but whores who will do anything (anyone asks of you no matter how absurd it is), but articulate why our jobs are important enough and an increase BS feel good Brunnacini duties are uncalled for. Focus on drilling and maintainnig your skills if you have nothing else to do.

    FTM-PTB
    Listen, first I want to say I respect your opinion and what you do. I also would say I look up to you on some things because you are FDNY and see more fire than I do. Now, you're not going to like the rest of what I have to say.
    I see there is the attitude of the old school big city firefighter too. You are not in an administrative position in your department. I am more administrative and in a Command position more than I am on the hoseline since I became a captain. You do not have to deal with the public in ways I do. Public in a small town is a lot different than it is in a big town too. Fire service in FDNY vs. Altoona, WI is like night and day. You do what works for you, and I do what works for me. DO NOT put words in my mouth. I said nothing of the kind of us having to learn plumbing skills, lock breaking, or anything else.

    My Department does small things like letting an old lady back into her apartment, shutting off water to a building when a pipe breaks, installing and replacing batteries in a smoke detector or do residential fire inspections because that is what we do. We serve our "customers." We feel it is the service in public service. Protect life and property, THAT IS OUR JOB! How we percieve to do our job and how you percieve to do your job is the difference between you and I.

    And another thing....Myself, nor my department, are "whores" who will lay down anytime someone tells me to. I happen to agree with most of those "BS feel good Brunnacini duties" that promote "customer service." You need to update yourself with the times. Just because you are FDNY does not mean you are an expert, it means you are experienced and you do not know everything. There are many many ways to skin a cat my friend. Talk about arrogance if you are so closed minded to change. With that kind of thinking, there is no way you could possibly try to understand my point so we will agree to disagree on this issue.
    Last edited by Dickey; 02-16-2007 at 05:28 AM.
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    Thanks Dickey I think you saved me a lot of typing. Fairfax Co does "lock-out" PubSvc calls - a lot of them if you sit and listen to the dispatch. Mostly to comm sites, but the odd residential address will come up. There are a lot for vehicle lock-outs too, although I am not really sure why they call us for those - but we do carry basic "thieves" tools.

    As Dickey basically alludes to, Differn't Strokes for Differn't Folks. Do I see a "Jack-of-All-Trades" fire department for the future? No, but I see one that might for its own survival (in some regions/areas) becoming more public oriented. By that I mean that we are "in the streets" a bit more, doing public service calls like opening locks and other things like that.

    Its been said many times before, we are our own worst enemy. Other than the Yearly Open House, and a few other functions, no one sees us except for when the lights and sirens go off, and we go tear-a@@ing down the road to a call. KeithA8 brings an interesting point about PPE. While I intrinsically support "bigger" better PPE, with the better protection comes greater responsibility in the training department.

    By that I mean, the better the safety equipment, the greater the risks an individual will be willing to take, the greater hazard he will get into before it becomes deadly. We already see enough of that in the LODD pages. So with greater protection should (hopefully) come greater education. Education for the individual to learn the limitations of both himself AND his gear. I know that we already do this, but I think the stats speak for themselves about the success or not of it.

    Building constuction, no matter how wonderful the new technology for materials gets to be, just like the Space Shuttle ("Made in Taiwan") the new buildings will be created by the LOWEST bidder. I always ask myself (only because I have no one "In The Know" to ask) why we always, or nearly always select the lowest bidder when it comes to construction projects? Intellectually we know that he has potential to use sub-standard materials, and cut corners for other things that might be the difference between the floors and ceilings actually holding their own during fire conditions.

    Future Evolution of the fire department will depend on:

    the individual regions/towns/cities that each service - and the requirements of that service

    the individual Chiefs of Department and the crews he leads - to be pro-active in that evolution

    the firefighters themselves - to be pro-acitve with their communities, and the citizens they service

    the advances of technology - in fire prevention/intervention, firefighting equipment and apparatus, building materials and constuction.

    All of those things have determined the way the fire service has evolved from your basic 10 man firebucket teams of 2500BC to the most up-to-date firefighting teams of today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firenewbie View Post
    Where do you see our field going in the next 20 or 30 years ago.
    I see alot more fireman ducking in the yard because they are being taught it is more important to stay out there and hold the old ladies hand and make her feel good while explaining that insurance will replace her belongings because it is much too dangerous for us to be in there putting the damn fire out like we used to!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985
    I wish that was true for many....

    But, most try to view the ones who call as Customer's and customer service is important. IF they arent happy... then they will not vote your bond in the next election. It doesnt matter that you are taking away supper from the table for some poor locksmith..... what matters is that the customer is happy.
    Sad sad times
    If your Bond is dependent on a few lockouts, you clearly need someone with a better ability to articulate your needs to your taxpayers. They are not customers, don't try to apply private sector models to our occupation, it doesn't translate and reduces both the citizen and the fireman into cogs in a machine that only serves to make someone money. That isn't what the fire department is for. And everyone wonders why 911 is abused by people who don't care to pay for a taxi ride to the hospital to get meds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captian Gonzo
    I agree with this, but when we get a call for a single or two family owner occupied residential lockout, we will first see if we can get in through an unlocked window or use the smoke ejector hanger to gently spread the jamb enough to allow us access to the door striker. If we cannot, then we tell the [people they should call a locksmith. We also tell them that yes, we can "break in".. bitut the locksmith is cheaper than repairing the damage. We also have them sign a waiver.

    Commercial and buildings.. we scope out the situation and advise them to call the property manager. Car lockouts are done only when the vehicle is running with a child or animal inside.

    If we get a call for a water leak and we can stop the leak by shutting off the water.. we do it.. then advise the resident to call a plumber.

    In a department the size of the FDNY, you can probably deflect these types os service calls. In most small and medium sized FD's, you can't. We don't get all that many calls for lockouts ( I think we did a total of 50 for the year), so it isn't that much of a burden on us.
    Water leaks are an emergency, they cause wires to short out, collapse potential, drowning potential in basements...etc. We eliminate the emergency and tell them to call a plumber. Do you realize how many people expect us to fix the problem? Becasue as some say they are a "customer" that means we should do as they request. No, even though I know plumbing and can fix a number of their problems I'm not going to do it. That isn't my job, that is the job of a plumber who needs that money to support his family. I'm getting paid to be a fireman and don't get any extra to fix someones problem with the sink. When my sink breaks and is beyond my abilities I don't call the Fire department, I call guess what?...thats right a plumber.

    That might not be a burden on you, but I'll bet there are a couple of locksmiths who have bills to pay who would appricate you guys not undercutting their line of work. I'll bet it is a burden on them attempting to maintain their incomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Listen, first I want to say I respect your opinion and what you do. I also would say I look up to you on some things because you are FDNY and see more fire than I do. Now, you're not going to like the rest of what I have to say.
    I see there is the attitude of the old school big city firefighter too. You are not in an administrative position in your department. I am more administrative and in a Command position more than I am on the hoseline since I became a captain. You do not have to deal with the public in ways I do. Public in a small town is a lot different than it is in a big town too. Fire service in FDNY vs. Altoona, WI is like night and day. You do what works for you, and I do what works for me. DO NOT put words in my mouth. I said nothing of the kind of us having to learn plumbing skills, lock breaking, or anything else.

    My Department does small things like letting an old lady back into her apartment, shutting off water to a building when a pipe breaks, installing and replacing batteries in a smoke detector or do residential fire inspections because that is what we do. We serve our "customers." We feel it is the service in public service. Protect life and property, THAT IS OUR JOB! How we percieve to do our job and how you percieve to do your job is the difference between you and I.

    And another thing....Myself, nor my department, are "whores" who will lay down anytime someone tells me to. I happen to agree with most of those "BS feel good Brunnacini duties" that promote "customer service." You need to update yourself with the times. Just because you are FDNY does not mean you are an expert, it means you are experienced and you do not know everything. There are many many ways to skin a cat my friend. Talk about arrogance if you are so closed minded to change. With that kind of thinking, there is no way you could possibly try to understand my point so we will agree to disagree on this issue.
    First, OUR JOB isn't to fulfill every beck and call of every citizen who thinks they are entitled to free locksmithing services. What are the odds someone is going to call a locksmith in the phonebook that takes 2 hours to arrive and cost a minium of $50 or the Fire department which shows up in 5 minutes and costs nothing?

    Hell using the same argument that people around here use for EMS, Lockouts would become such a large part of my job, that we would have to change our outlook and dept name to the XYZ EMS and Locksmithing - Fire serivce provider.

    Those locksmiths have bills, have families to feed and house and clothe and you don't even have the least amount of remorse for taking away a needed source of income not to mention tax revenue for your city in terms of taxes on that service which go to pay for your salary which pays for your familes needs and wants.

    If I was a locksmith in your city I would file a lawsuit on your dept so fast it would make your head spin. Government using an unfair advantage to undermine private enterprise. Think I have a case?

    As for my job, I've worked in small cities, not quite as small as Altoona, but small enough and even there I'm sure the Harwarestore owner or someone is a locksmith and makes $5 or something to provide his service. Don't think that my employment with the FDNY has anything to do with my opinion on this issue. I'm not an expert by no means and never claimed to be...however I am a man who respects others work and livelyhoods and I don't look to screw my neighbor out of a living because I can't articulate a substantive argument to justify my own job.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-16-2007 at 12:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I see alot more fireman ducking in the yard because they are being taught it is more important to stay out there and hold the old ladies hand and make her feel good while explaining that insurance will replace her belongings because it is much too dangerous for us to be in there putting the damn fire out like we used to!!
    That hits too close to home to be even a bit funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post

    If I was a locksmith in your city I would file a lawsuit on your dept so fast it would make your head spin. Government using an unfair advantage to undermine private enterprise. Think I have a case?


    FTM-PTB
    No, actually. I'm not commenting on the rest of your post, but on this one, no.

    I was actually involved in the defense of a state university that opened access to their athletic facilities to non-students in exchange for a fee. Local health clubs objected bitterly and threatened lawsuits, but couldn't find a plausible cause of action.

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    Default The BIGGEST challenges of the fire service await us

    We are in a pivotal time for the fire service (and other emergency services as well). This era of unparalleled political correctness (PC) will be our downfall. I read today the IAFF's diversity initiative and I found it quite alarming. It seemed to provide a way to circumvent every aspect of recruitment that has allowed the fire service to recruit QUALIFIED people.

    I'll go out on a limb and make a broad statement that firefighters have few issues with those who are QUALIFIED for employment. If you can pass the rigorous* physical and personal qualifications, then you should be eligible for a employment. I used the asterisk because many FDs are diltuting their hiring processes to hire unqualifed applicants for PC reasons.

    Everyone wants to debate the future of the fire service in terms of the TYPES of runs we will or will not be answering. That is an irrelevant issue. As long as people live in society, the fire service will be needed. An issues that needs to be addressed IMMEDIATELY is who will comprise our FDs. As the seasoned folks retire, we will develop from within. As long as QUALIFIED people are recruited and promoted, we will do fine. The concern lies in that many FDs (especially large urban FDs) actively seek individuals based on PC and NOT ability. As long as EVERY candidate, regardless or ethnicity or gender, is given the same opportunity for employment and is held to the same standards, PC will be a moot point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    No, actually. I'm not commenting on the rest of your post, but on this one, no.

    I was actually involved in the defense of a state university that opened access to their athletic facilities to non-students in exchange for a fee. Local health clubs objected bitterly and threatened lawsuits, but couldn't find a plausible cause of action.
    I already see some differences. The university still charges a fee...the FD doesn't charge one at all and the level of the service(mere mintues vs. hours in a response) is much different than with a health club where members still have to travel to by their own means.

    There are many other cases where government vs. private enterprise have been tossed around...some winners some loosers.

    I most definately would have a case...would I win or not would be another subject altogether. Considering the competancy of many Fire departments and City admins out there (not neccesarly anyone here) It probably wouldn't be that hard to prove ones case. Odds are most governments would settle out of court on this one as they often do.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I already see some differences. The university still charges a fee...the FD doesn't charge one at all and the level of the service(mere mintues vs. hours in a response) is much different than with a health club where members still have to travel to by their own means.

    There are many other cases where government vs. private enterprise have been tossed around...some winners some loosers.

    I most definately would have a case...would I win or not would be another subject altogether. Considering the competancy of many Fire departments and City admins out there (not neccesarly anyone here) It probably wouldn't be that hard to prove ones case. Odds are most governments would settle out of court on this one as they often do.

    FTM-PTB

    It is possible that NY has what is often called "fair share" legislation, or other legislation that would create a private cause of action, but in the absence of such, you would almost certainly be out of luck.

    Unfair competition claims have often been successfully brought against not-for-profits, but those are usually based on the public purpose and charitible tax exemption aspects of a non-profit competing with for profit businesses.

    In general, unless the government has (by statute) specifically limited itself from competing with private businesses in some circumstances, it is not bound not to provide a service just because someone would like to do so for profit (EMS anyone?)

    If a city decided that ensuring that little old ladies were never locked out of their homes for longer than a minute constituted a public good, it would be able to create a public lock-out response agency if it wished, irrespective of the presence in the market of established private locksmiths.

    Anyway, not meaning to turn this thread into a legal discussion. I'm just saying, don't count on this tactic as a means of keeping the fire service focussed on fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    That hits too close to home to be even a bit funny.
    Unfortunately, that wasn't meant to be funny.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 02-16-2007 at 01:42 PM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Dont forget FFFRED, that by lock picking during an non-emergency, you also risk the risk of damaging the car and being held responsible.


    And everyone wonders why 911 is abused by people who don't care to pay for a taxi ride to the hospital to get meds.

    There is an easy way to combat that. Give the medic's the power to say "This isnt an emergency. We are not going to take you."

    But, most medical director's would rather S**t a break than allow that. Dallas Fire Department does that... but I heard they budget like 12 million for lawsuits

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    I don't know if this will fit in or not but here is my opinion. First of all, the fire service is...well...I guess you could say, opinionated. There is nothing set in stone how a department works. Yeah, we have NFPA, OSHA (EPA for non-OSHA states), NIOSH, etc., but there is nothing that says in this situation you have do this. For one, you can't do that. In this field, nothing is the same. No two calls are alike in any way. The concept is the same, though. That is why I don't think you can really imagine where the fire service will lead to. Some departments rely more on the "customer satisfaction" concept than those that go in there, put the fire out, and load up and go. But this is just a scratch on the surface because I haven't gotten into communications, truck set-up, hose lays, and whatever else you do on scene. Our department is surrounded by 5 departments and every one of them are completely different. A couple of them don't believe on doing interior attacks. Maybe it is because of their lack of PPE that prevents this, I don't know. Or how about wearing gear on MVAs? I wear complete PPE on an MVA. It is our policy to do that. I would imagine I will hear someone say that is stupid because you are tearing up bunker gear for a call that requires no fire suppression. Again, opinion. Our chief told us to do it like that, so we do it like that. That person's chief said not to, they don't. Until EVERY department is under the same S.O.P., you will never know where it will go. Shoot, maybe you could reduce firefighter fatality if you did that. But we aren't going put something in place to do that. Just imagine that brawl that would cause. Anyways, I probably stirred enough stinky secretions so I better stop while I am ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    It is possible that NY has what is often called "fair share" legislation, or other legislation that would create a private cause of action, but in the absence of such, you would almost certainly be out of luck.

    Unfair competition claims have often been successfully brought against not-for-profits, but those are usually based on the public purpose and charitible tax exemption aspects of a non-profit competing with for profit businesses.

    In general, unless the government has (by statute) specifically limited itself from competing with private businesses in some circumstances, it is not bound not to provide a service just because someone would like to do so for profit (EMS anyone?)

    If a city decided that ensuring that little old ladies were never locked out of their homes for longer than a minute constituted a public good, it would be able to create a public lock-out response agency if it wished, irrespective of the presence in the market of established private locksmiths.

    Anyway, not meaning to turn this thread into a legal discussion. I'm just saying, don't count on this tactic as a means of keeping the fire service focussed on fire.

    I agree randsc,

    There are many plausible senarios based on where one lives and what the local laws and courts have decided in the past. My contention is based on my expereince with smaller towns and their C- Law school grads working in legal that they would gladly just tell the FD to stop running non-emergency lockouts and settle out of court to avoid actually having to spend the $$$ going to court. Much obviously would weigh on who the plantiffs lawyers were and if the city anticipated much of a fight...(essentailly extortion by assuming the cost of fighing it won't be worth it in the end.)

    I would have a case...would I win is a subject that would only be solved in an actual court.

    It shouldn't however take a court case as a working man such as a fireman would in my opinion have enough respect for other working men not to undermine their way of supporting their familes. No matter what the caller asks us to do we only fix the emergency...everything else is up to them, because I don't know about your FD but we aren't bonded for doing work we are neither licenenced or trained to perform that is outside the scope of our sworn duties.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-16-2007 at 04:40 PM.

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