1. #1
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    Default Believe it or not, it technically wasn't fully involved...



    1715 hours. Homeowner witnessed the start of the fire. He blew off two garage extinguishers before calling 911 along with the rest of the neighborhood.

    Fully involved attached garage, heavily involved house (fire across the porch, entering multiple rooms, and in the attic). Not McMansions, but an upscale neighborhood with covenants requiring minimum 2,000 s.f. living space plus two car garages.

    The line is being stretched about 6 minutes after the 911 call.

    Nearest hydrant 4,000'.

    I dunno if it's the beginning of a WWYD or not, figured I'd post it.

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    It doesn't look like they're getting ready to fight this one from the unburned side, but it also looks like their options might be pretty limited in that respect.

    Did they use an LDH relay or tanker shuttle?
    ullrichk
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    I would be personaly start on getting water supply set up for a surround and drowned. This is defensive only "lost cause". I would make sure I have pleny of deck guns and trucks coming in. At least 2 trucks set up one on side B and one on side D. If your closest hydrant is 4000' away time to set up tanker operations. I believe putting that line on the ground even if it is a 2 1/2 isn't going to do much good unless there is a water supply set up that we can't see. In my opinoin a line should not go on the ground until mop up. I give them credit for tring. If they think they can get a knock, but I would not put anyone interior on this one to far lost will be a collapse issue since there is a water supply issue.

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    Talking

    Looks like the unburned side is the driveway!

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    Dal, is this your district? Are you going based on only the picture or can you give more info. based on what I see and nothing else to work from, here it is...

    You can hang me at the stake but after a quick knock on the main body, I'm going for the front door and getting the ceilings pulled ASAP. Probably gonna throw some agua up into that porch overhang too on the way in.

    The picture looks impressive, however my judgment is that there is a bit of house to save still. The wind is blowing the fire across the front, hiding the rest of the house. The concentration of black smoke appears to emit from the garage area only, with less dense smoke beginning to filter from the other end. The garage is no doubt a loss, but if the fire hasnt taken hold of the entire attic from my perception....get in and get some.

    Not for nothing...but I wouldnt use deck guns here. A 2 1/2 with the 1 1/4" tip to waffle it and the 1 3/4" line 15/16" tip to go in the front door would be my bet.

    I've been to fires similar to this that were extinguished from the inside by 1 3/4" lines. where there were no hydrants.
    Last edited by MG3610; 02-19-2007 at 07:59 PM.

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    We did use a tanker shuttle.

    We could've laid. 3,000' is our average lay, we carry 5,000' 5" on the water supply engine. We normally don't lay for SFDs unless the water supply is close by since Tankers can usually handle the flow. It's probably a good firehouse bullshooting session whether we should have laid.

    It *wouldn't* have made a difference to the final outcome. It would've been simpler then a shuttle, but it would've been a lot of work to pickup especially given in bitter cold temps that came after dark we find we have to pack twice -- once that evening, and the next warm weekend the load has to be laid out and repacked again tight on the reel truck.

    The actual water supply evolution was a variation of the "New England Hitch" which we use commonly to go up long driveways, although this one ran up a street. Shuttling Engine-Tankers at that intersection pumped into a gated siamese that fed a 600' 5" line up to the fireground.

    Ponders if I should post the next picture yet

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    Unless you have a coule of 2500 gallon tankers right behind your first in engine.... I've seen how this one ends.

    Deck gun for 45 seconds to a minute?

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    I'd be inclined to use the deck gun on the garage if its detached or attached by a breezeway and is going to continue to expose the house if it's not dealt with, otherwise I'd hate to use that much water all at once if I'm going to be able to get an adequate water supply to do an offensive attack on the house.

    On the other hand, it's hard to tell but the fire looks like it's pretty low in the structure. Is this a basement fire? If it is, it looks too advanced to mount an interior attack.
    ullrichk
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    I can't make any judgements by the picture because all I see is a big orange glow.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Marshmallows anyone? I didn't bring them, didn't you bring them?
    Oh well, on the deck gun issue, we're always very hesitant to think of the deck gun unless there's already a big water supply established - rarely use it unless on a hydrant or two. Doesn't seem like the most effective use of 500 gallons.

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    Consider how high off the ground your deck gun may be along with how far away from the building you will be. Is that stream going to be hitting where you want or just pouring water in any opening?

    I know on my engine, the gun is about 10' off the ground. Garage door at 8' height. All I'd be doing is wasting water and not putting it up higher where it needs to be. Your setup's may vary.

    2 1/2" in a guys hands will do much more good.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default Deck Gun

    My intention with the deck gun:

    Had an incident quite similar to this one from the photos earlier this year. I had my guys pull 2 2.5" lines off and attack the fire. No success. The only other tool we have that can apply big water quickly is a deck gun.

    On the angle of attack issue, ours will go over center towards the ground. You have to be careful that you don't wash the truck though.

    I don't know if it would've worked, but would've liked to try. AO

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    Knowing our setup, I'd pull either a 2 1/2 or our 3" preconnect, depending on the manpower I have. With the 2 1/2 at least you have a shot at moving it, once you charge the 3", it stays where it is.

    We don't keep the nozzle on our deck guns due to clearance issues, so we don't tend to pull them often. We can place the 3" in service quicker and have better placement.

    For water supply, we only carry 850' of 4", so tanker shuttles are the best option here. Preferably we would set up a portable pond.

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    About 10 minutes and 4,500 gallons of wet stuff on red stuff later:

    What's next folks? (I know what happened, just looking to generate some discussion before I give the rest of the story...)

    BTW, from today's local newspaper:
    (Brooklyn Fire Marshal) Kramer said the homeowner, Roland Leo Daigneault, was working in a workshop in the attached two-car garage. He had placed a bucket containing the rags outside the garage near an exterior wall of the house, Kramer said. A short time later, he went outside and discovered fire coming from the house.

    Kramer said it appears the fire started on the exterior wall of the house...


    Homeowner was working in the the garage and noticed something was "wrong" and found the fire. He did mention to me he had 2,000 s.f. of seasoned oak in the garage...have to wonder if was working on oiling wood in the garage which helped contribute to the rapid development.

    State Fire Marshals office provided technical assistance. Officially fire cause is being called "undetermined."

    Last edited by Dalmatian190; 02-20-2007 at 01:23 PM.

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    Does the car light up? It appears there is no exposures correct? See where I'm going?

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    Since your not coming right off a hydrant, we would pull our 2" with a fog nozzle for the main house section, and a 2 1/2" with fog for garage, after water supply is established then get a couple 1 3/4 lines going.

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    The only exposures would be internal ones -- mostly the rooms towards the B/C corner, and upstairs. Although by this point there was at least significant smoke & heat damage in those. Still nice to save what you can of a business papers or family heirlooms even if insurance will be replacing the rest.

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    Talking fully Involved?

    I would set up a surround and dround. Looks like it was fully involved. It looked like a double wide trailer fire we had. It was fully involved. The call came to dispatch at around 02:35. We seen it approx. a mile away. The flames were that high. That we could see it that far away.
    Gary Newcomb
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    By two sides, we are judging a house as fully involved?

  20. #20
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    Default Start an Attack

    Ive seen that here. Not a rural area but a city, Two 1 3/4 lines would take care of that fire. With a plug at every corner, water supply is not an issue. With a fire like that, why go to the back and search for the fire. Hit it from the front and then get inside. The fire is well vented, and a good hard attack on the front should knock it down. 2-4 MIN'S tops and a crew should be inside, hitting hotspots. But every fire is different. You never know what is inside.

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    Watcha running for tips & pressures 7160?

    2 1-3/4" lines running 15/16" smoothbores and being slightly over-pumped would've been close to the same flow rate used on the fire during the first 10 minutes

    I'd still prefer a 2.5" with an 1-1/8" or better to concentrate the flow a bit more early on though

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    Pack-up Guys, Were Goin In......guys...guys...

    Ok Everyone, "defensive Attack"!!!

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