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    Default Hosebed dimensions

    OK, we're speccing a new Rescue-Engine. In an effort to keep the hosebed as low as possible we're trying to figure out what the dimensions we need to carry 1200 ft. of 5" LDH. The new engine will be outfitted with the 5" on delivery and we are still awaiting our new 5" replacement hose for our current lead peice. Could anyone with a few free moments tell me how much space their load of 5" LDH takes up? (for ex: 1000' in a bed 36"wide x 24" tall and 11 ft. long).

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    1200 feet of 5-inch hose in 100 foot sections should be 44,676 cubic inches which is 25.85 cubic feet. A standard hose bed should be about 55 cubic feet of capacity. The dimensions you listed are about 66 cubic feet, which is a big hose bed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    OK, we're speccing a new Rescue-Engine. In an effort to keep the hosebed as low as possible we're trying to figure out what the dimensions we need to carry 1200 ft. of 5" LDH. The new engine will be outfitted with the 5" on delivery and we are still awaiting our new 5" replacement hose for our current lead peice. Could anyone with a few free moments tell me how much space their load of 5" LDH takes up? (for ex: 1000' in a bed 36"wide x 24" tall and 11 ft. long).
    If your department is going with a ALF pumper, check out a engine delivered to the FDNY with low hose bed back in the year 2002 for engine co 34 FDNY. The pumper was built by ( ALF RD Murry )
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 02-20-2007 at 08:56 PM.

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    We have 2 engines and 1 heavy rescue. Both engines carry 2,000' of 5" hose and 300' of preconnected 2 1/2" hose.The section of the hose bed designated for the 5" is 136" long x 57" wide x 25" high. Don't bother trying figuring out the cubic inches x per length of hose crap. Most times when you are packing the 5" after it has been charged , it is going to have some air in it thus throwing off any calculations that you may have done. Have the truck salesman figure out how much space you need for size and amount of hose you want , this way if it does not work out you can hold him to task for it. Just my opinion.

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    ACM,

    We use Angus Hi-Vol 5" (best LDH on the market, in my opinion), and we've found their numbers to be fairly accurate for our hosebeds.

    1. Determine the width of your hosebed, in multiples of 8 to 8 1/4 inches. Determine how many stacks of 5" you will have - preferably an even number, so you can split the bed for dual lines, if desired. For example, your 36" wide hosebed is really a 32" wide hosebed - with four stacks of 5" (i.e. you're not going to get 4 1/2 stacks in a 36" bed - you'll still only get four stacks across, even if you stagger them, so you might as well save the 4" and have a neater hosebed).

    2. Multiply the width (inches) by the length (inches) by the height (inches)you want to use (possibly not all the way to the top of the bed, if you are designing a low hosebed). This gives you cubic inches.

    3. Divide the cubic inches by 1728 (this gives you cubic feet).

    4. Multiply your answer by 25.7 (the number of feet of 5" Angus Hi-Vol per cubic foot) - this will give you your approximate hosebed capacity.


    One thing I would recommend - specify your minimum dimensions and minimum hoseload (including size, brand, type, coupling type, and section lengths). When they build it, they will have to go with the stricter of the two - this covers your butt and theirs.

    BTW - your 36" wide (32" wide) x 24" tall x 132" long hosebed will probably hold around 1,500' of 5", depending on how you pack it.

    Have you considered using an 'L' tank to lower your hosebed? Depending on your body configuration, you can probably get it pretty low, even if you have a larger tank. Drop me a line by email or PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RESQBOSS244 View Post
    the hose bed designated for the 5" is 136" long x 57" wide x 25" high. Don't bother trying figuring out the cubic inches x per length of hose crap. Most times when you are packing the 5" after it has been charged , it is going to have some air in it thus throwing off any calculations that you may have done. .
    Thanks, BOSS, that is exactly why I posted this thread asking for actual dimensions.

    BIGJIM: Thanks for the help, but that info looks like what I have from the FAMA calculator which doesn't seem to translate into real world applications very well. While it would seem to work, in practical terms using the cubic footage of Rolled LDH doesn't work when laid into a hose bed, for the reasons RESQBOSS points out. I should have noted I tried to use the FAMA calculator to no practical avail. In fact 36x24x120" really doesn't seem to large if you look at it laid out. I know our lead engine currently hold 1200ft. of 4"LDH and take up atleast this much space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    ACM,

    We use Angus Hi-Vol 5" (best LDH on the market, in my opinion), and we've found their numbers to be fairly accurate for our hosebeds.

    1. Determine the width of your hosebed, in multiples of 8 to 8 1/4 inches. Determine how many stacks of 5" you will have - preferably an even number, so you can split the bed for dual lines, if desired. For example, your 36" wide hosebed is really a 32" wide hosebed - with four stacks of 5" (i.e. you're not going to get 4 1/2 stacks in a 36" bed - you'll still only get four stacks across, even if you stagger them, so you might as well save the 4" and have a neater hosebed).

    2. Multiply the width (inches) by the length (inches) by the height (inches)you want to use (possibly not all the way to the top of the bed, if you are designing a low hosebed). This gives you cubic inches.

    3. Divide the cubic inches by 1728 (this gives you cubic feet).

    4. Multiply your answer by 25.7 (the number of feet of 5" Angus Hi-Vol per cubic foot) - this will give you your approximate hosebed capacity.


    One thing I would recommend - specify your minimum dimensions and minimum hoseload (including size, brand, type, coupling type, and section lengths). When they build it, they will have to go with the stricter of the two - this covers your butt and theirs.

    BTW - your 36" wide (32" wide) x 24" tall x 132" long hosebed will probably hold around 1,500' of 5", depending on how you pack it.

    Have you considered using an 'L' tank to lower your hosebed? Depending on your body configuration, you can probably get it pretty low, even if you have a larger tank. Drop me a line by email or PM.
    Thanks BlitzfireSolo:

    In looking at the dimensions given, I wouldn't think we could get nearly that amount of LDH in the space. We may be loading the hose poorly, though we seem to have tried everything under the sun. Twice!

    We are considering an L tank, also a rear mount pump. Basically nothing is off limits at this point if it will make the overall package smaller while still packing the desired punch! I still need to convince a few that the low hosebed is worth doing. Many see this as a loss of potential space or tank capacity. Thier thought is the taller, narrower tank will allow for better compartment depth. And other than center of gravity and reloading safety, they have a point, given we're trying to pack a lot into a small package. Like you, I do not like having FFer's step up onto the truck for 95% of the tasks we do in the heat of battle. But I can't argue this point as far if the hose pull ends are out of the bed and low on the tail for deployment. BTW, any update on your new trucks delivery date, I can't wait to take a look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Thanks BlitzfireSolo:

    In looking at the dimensions given, I wouldn't think we could get nearly that amount of LDH in the space. We may be loading the hose poorly, though we seem to have tried everything under the sun. Twice!
    We load with couplings dutched at the front (folds start about two feet from the front, to leave room for two sets of couplings), and we stagger folds about 4 inches, both front and back. Beyond that, nothing special, besides making sure that all folds are clean and neat, and stacks are straight with smooth transitions. Like I said before, despite being the highest flowing LDH on the market, the Angus Hi-Vol packs surprisingly tight and clean. What brand are you using?


    We are considering an L tank, also a rear mount pump. Basically nothing is off limits at this point if it will make the overall package smaller while still packing the desired punch!
    One nice thing about rear-mounts: as long as you get the height of the pump compartment low enough, that is 4-6 extra feet of length for low hosebed space - allowing for a larger tank, more hose, and/or larger compartments (e.g. - on a midship, the space over the bottom portion of the 'L' tank is the only hosebed space you have. On a rear-mount, the low hosebed continues right across the space above the pump. Easier to draw....)


    I still need to convince a few that the low hosebed is worth doing. Many see this as a loss of potential space or tank capacity. Thier thought is the taller, narrower tank will allow for better compartment depth. And other than center of gravity and reloading safety, they have a point, given we're trying to pack a lot into a small package.
    Tell them that it is a waste of space not to use the space above the pump house for your hosebed, or the space on either side of it for compartment space. If you go with a rear-mount, you will be buying yourself more than enough space to go with a low hosebed. I will guarantee that, as long as you don't have any ridiculous desires for compartment dimensions, tank capacity, ground ladder storage, etc, you can get your low hosebed, plenty of compartment space, and a very compact package to boot.

    Like you, I do not like having FFer's step up onto the truck for 95% of the tasks we do in the heat of battle. But I can't argue this point as far if the hose pull ends are out of the bed and low on the tail for deployment.
    What hoseloads do you use for pre-connects? I'm a big proponent of an adapted minuteman load, and there's no practical way to do this when the hosebed is 8' up in the air, no matter how low you drape the pull ends.

    BTW, any update on your new trucks delivery date, I can't wait to take a look.
    We went for our 'pre-final' last week. They have a few things to iron out yet. We're hoping to be out there within the next two weeks for our final-final, then it's off to New York for tool mount for a few weeks, hopefully with a graphics job somewhere in there. Then, with any luck, it will get to FDIC - we're crossing our fingers. So we're thinking some time around the end of April/beginning of May.

    We should get together for a "yellow paper" session some time - just sit down with a yellow pad of paper for an all-out bulls**t session, discussing rear-mounts, rescue engines, hosebeds, etc. Maybe we could do it some time if I get up to see your tower, or if you come down to see our wagon.

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    ACM - When you have a second: what is your desired tank capacity, hose load, ground ladder compliment, and basic compartment layout/special equipment storage needs?

    Is this more of an engine, more of a heavy rescue, or almost an exact cross between the two? Will it run as a first due wagon, a pumper, or just get used as an engine when everything else is tied up or down? What rescue gear are you carrying beyond extrication tools and basic stabilization?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    ACM - When you have a second: what is your desired tank capacity, hose load, ground ladder compliment, and basic compartment layout/special equipment storage needs?

    Is this more of an engine, more of a heavy rescue, or almost an exact cross between the two? Will it run as a first due wagon, a pumper, or just get used as an engine when everything else is tied up or down? What rescue gear are you carrying beyond extrication tools and basic stabilization?
    First Due Engine/Squad:
    5 person min. cab with 4 SCBA seats
    in cab EMS/gas metering compartment
    1250 single stage pump min. (anything but top mount)
    CAFS?
    750 gal tank.
    1200ft. 5" LDH
    600ft. 1.75" (all preconnects)
    400ft. 2.5" min.
    300 ft. 3" bomb line preconnected to portable gun
    NFPA min. ladders
    carrying 1 spreader, 1 cutter, 3 rams (cutter+spreader preconnected)
    new lightweight portable hydraulic unit (Holmatro?)
    basic 3 peice stabilization kit (struts, chains, hooks etc)
    stokes loaded with confined space equipment
    2 backboards
    2 chainsaws
    7 bag kit with 2 complete control sets (airbags)
    basic engine/truck hand tools
    oil dry hopper
    5+ spare SCBA cylinders (4500 psi)
    4 Level B fully encapsulated suits and 8 pairs boots
    hard suction as need but mounted out of the way (almost never used)
    I'm sure I'm forgetting some things but...

    Nothing major but to get all the above on a truck that remains as manueverable as possible (short hosebed height second only to-short in length).
    The engine will roll as the first due engine on all runs. It will also be the primary units used for "special ops" such as extrication, confined space and haz-mat calls. Given the current first due will be run as second due we could still function as an engine co. without this peice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    What brand are you using?.
    We have all Angus 4" LDH but have just purchased 1200 ft. of Jaffrey(whatever the new name is) 5" LDH and the new Squad will carry 5" LDH as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    What hoseloads do you use for pre-connects? I'm a big proponent of an adapted minuteman load, and there's no practical way to do this when the hosebed is 8' up in the air, no matter how low you drape the pull ends..
    We currently use a made up load that is a hybrid. Basically its three folds of flat, next is 150' in triple layer form, finished with a horseshoe. Given the loops put into it, one man can pull the load off in about 25 ft. and not end with a tangled mess. We are certainly interested in the bumper load like you' ve got in your new front bumper (Rattlesnake Style!!).
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    We should get together for a "yellow paper" session some time - just sit down with a yellow pad of paper for an all-out bulls**t session, discussing rear-mounts, rescue engines, hosebeds, etc. Maybe we could do it some time if I get up to see your tower, or if you come down to see our wagon.
    This would be great. I've been thinking I'd like to meet up and do just this. I certainly want to come see your new piece but you always could come here before then. Either way this would be a great benefit ot us. You guys defineately have done the lions share of work on many of the issues we're looking at. No sense for us to reinvent the wheel.

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    Default Rescue Engine

    This pic may help you
    1500/620/30 Class A

    We put compartments up on top and have no hosebed, but you can make thae cabinets smaller and gat a hosebed

    It wont let me post the pics, they are on the Saulsbury Rear Mount types apparatus thread
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Engine305; 02-27-2007 at 09:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engine305 View Post
    This pic may help you
    1500/620/30 Class A

    We put compartments up on top and have no hosebed, but you can make thae cabinets smaller and gat a hosebed

    It wont let me post the pics, they are on the Saulsbury Rear Mount types apparatus thread
    I was just admiring another pic of your truck. Nice rig, I wondered how you faired with the overall equipment, iven the overall hieght looks fairly low. No hosebed certainly helps I guess.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-28-2007 at 12:13 AM.

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    ACM,

    Sounds very much like our new rig, just a smaller pump, tank, and hosebed.

    A few questions:

    -Seating for 5: Any preferred layout? We spaced 3 across the back wall, so that everybody is forward-facing but still has elbow room, and put EMS compartments in place of the rear-facing jump seats. It creates an awesome cab environment with great communication between front and rear.

    -Bomb line: would this be pre-connected to a 1,000+ gpm monitor? What will you be finishing your 2 1/2" with? Will you carry a Blitzfire-type device?

    -Stokes: Do you want this in a ground-level compartment, or up top in a coffin compartment (based on frequency of use)?

    Sounds like a great unit. I'm looking forward to seeing things progress with it.

    I'll keep you updated on the delivery of our rig, and we'll see if I make it up there first or if you come down here. Should be a good time.

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    Default Rescue 3

    Yessir the OAL is 111" because the bay door is 114"

    The top has hatch compts on both sides 191" lond on the Passenger side, the driver side is about 150" because of the Wil-Burt vertical 6000 watt tower mounted in the driver side front corner of the body. The hosebed has 2 legnths of 6" suction hose, with a 6,8,and 10 foot pike pole in an enclosed bin on the driver side inboard of the hatch compts. The Passenger side of the hose bed has a 2 1/2 preconnect outlet that has class a foam capability and then next to that is a sorage place for a stokes and backboard. The hatch compts are deep enough for me to lay down and close the lid on it.
    The speedlays are in the 14" wide rollup doors at the body front. The first compt on both sides have a Hurst reel, 200 foot electrical reel and the driver side has a Hurst trimo pump for all 3 reels. The front bumper has a reel too. The second cabinet over the wheels has air bag storage on the passenger side along with the cribbing, cylinders and controls. The driver side will hold equipment for forcible entry, hand tools and an extrication hand tool kit. The pump panel is located in the drivers side rear compt. The passenger side rear compartment has tool boards, shelves and a place to carry the winch.
    The cab has only portable lights, and handie talkies to keep the clutter down. Our district has too many obstacles to have put the under running board cribbing compartments, as we would have knocked them off by now even though she is not in service yet.
    I will try and post some more pictures tonight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    -Seating for 5: Any preferred layout? We spaced 3 across the back wall, so that everybody is forward-facing but still has elbow room, and put EMS compartments in place of the rear-facing jump seats. It creates an awesome cab environment with great communication between front and rear.
    I'm interested in seeing your layout as that makes good sense to me. We w3ere think of two rear facing(outboard) and two forward facing on the rear wall with interior caninets on either outboard side for ease of retrieving EMS gear (sadly most used tools on our trucks). We'd like to stay with the smallest cab needed to keep the OAL down. We know we could work with the size Eagle chasis we have on our new tower (maybe with a roof extension though).
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    -Bomb line: would this be pre-connected to a 1,000+ gpm monitor? What will you be finishing your 2 1/2" with? Will you carry a Blitzfire-type device?
    We will run the 3" "bomb" line connected to a RAM monitor (500 gpm) or possibly the "Big Paulie", as I'd still like to try that for an agressive knockdown device.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    -Stokes: Do you want this in a ground-level compartment, or up top in a coffin compartment (based on frequency of use)?
    On the fence on this. On the one hand down low would be great if it would lay flat and could be loaded with RIT gear. If its primarily to be used with our confined space/rope rescue stuff then on top in a cofffin would be fine as we get only 1 or 2 true tech. rescue calls a year, though we haul people off our breakwater 10-12 time a summer in a stokes. In the end I think low would work best. Sadly RIT assignments have not been made automatic in our area, or at least not with any serious thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    I'll keep you updated on the delivery of our rig, and we'll see if I make it up there first or if you come down here. Should be a good time.
    Please do that. I showed some pics of you new truck today to the committee. They were quite impressed with the excellant use of space. Your truck is even better than Crimson's norm, which is still the tops at utilizing dead space.

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    ACM,

    Good stuff. One thing to consider: if you go with CAFS and run it on your blitz line, you could probably run 300' of 2 1/2" instead of 3", since CAFS eliminates the friction loss problem. This might give your guys an easier line to deploy with limited manpower.

    I'm looking forward to meeting up with you guys - let me know of any new developments on your end.

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