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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber SIGNAL99COM's Avatar
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    Default Boston Ladder Trucks

    THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR RECENT INCIDENT!!!

    I am hoping that someone from the BFD or the Boston area would have an answer to my question. I'll give it a shot, and if not, I might have to contact E-One direct and see what they say.

    My department purchased an E-One demo ladder truck over here in the Syracuse, NY area. The truck is 3 years old and in excellent condition.

    Now supposedly, the truck was speced out for the Boston Fire Department, along with a twin which was also sold as a demo around the same time, but the deal fell through as they just started buying Pierce. So guys in my department were told that our truck was actually speced out by the Boston Fire Department, for the Boston Fire Department.

    I on the other hand don't believe it because the truck has a pump and tank on it, and looking at their fleet, I don't see any of their ladder trucks with a pump and tank on it.

    Is it possible that they were going to give it a try?

    If I can't get an answer on this, I wonder if giving E-One the serial # of the truck if they will tell me who actually speced it out and who it was initially going to be sold to?
    Chris Shields
    Lieutenant / EMT
    Haz-Mat Technician
    East Syracuse Fire Dept
    Onondaga County, NY


  2. #2
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    Hey Signal99, you are correct, that's a false statement. We have never had pumps or tanks on our ladder trucks. All of our E-One's were 110' rear mounted, single axle aerials. I have over 20 yrs on and always on a truck co and have never heard of us even considering anything like that.

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    Actually, your half correct. Ladder 27 in neponset had a pump, but then again thats going back to the 70's. Today we do dont have pumps on any of our ladder Co. Water is for those guys on the engine, Infact I break out in a nasty rash everytime I touch or thinking about touching a line....Geez, Here comes that rash again!!

  4. #4
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    Default dry ladders

    I can see where a large fire department has exclusive ladder companies minus any pumps. However, is there any real harm if the ladder trucks had the pump for use with the ladder pipes or towerladders?

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    I can tell you that sometimes a pump would be a nice touch. We have an E-One 105' HD tower. It has two guns on it and is designed to flow 2,000 gpm.
    That rig, as well as the other two trucks we own have no pump.
    The problem comes in when we hook one of our 1250 gpm engines to it. Guess what we can't get 2,000 gpm from it. On a good hydrant we can come close about 1600 to 1700 gpm but not 2000. So I would have liked to see a 2,000 gpm pump on it. it wouldn't need a tank, crosslays, tons of hose but a pump would have been nice.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD View Post
    I can tell you that sometimes a pump would be a nice touch. We have an E-One 105' HD tower. It has two guns on it and is designed to flow 2,000 gpm.
    That rig, as well as the other two trucks we own have no pump.
    The problem comes in when we hook one of our 1250 gpm engines to it. Guess what we can't get 2,000 gpm from it. On a good hydrant we can come close about 1600 to 1700 gpm but not 2000. So I would have liked to see a 2,000 gpm pump on it. it wouldn't need a tank, crosslays, tons of hose but a pump would have been nice.
    It looks like your next new engine will be a ( 2000 gpm pumper ) with 5" LDH to supply your tower ladder. We use a 1500 gpm pumper to supply our 75' Baker Aerialscope with a 1000 gpm flow rating !..
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 02-24-2007 at 04:36 PM.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber redbaron's Avatar
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    I must be missing something here. The only thing that should stop you from getting 2000gpm out of a 1250 pump is that there is not 2000gpm available in the hydrant. Is the truck plumbed to flow 2000gpm? You can have a 5,000gpm pump and if the plumbing is wrong your stuck.

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    How about a little FAE work here. A firepump is designed to pump its capacity at draft at 150 psi. The pump will put out more because the incomming pressure from the hydrant lets the pump deliver its capacity with less effort. To get another 750 gpm out of the rig would be hard. You have friction loss in the hose going to the truck, FL in the plumbing itself and it will loose 1/2 lb per foot elevation.

    Now the higher the pressure the pump puts out the lower the capacity down to 50% at 250 psi. We have plenty of water at our drill site located at the base of a water tower. The hydrants at our drill site put out about 75 psi and somewhere around 3,000 gpm. Now the problem could be related to the fog nozzles on the tower (another debate for another day) but my point was that it would have been nice to have a pump on the rig.

  9. #9
    Forum Member IronsMan53's Avatar
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    We had a 1250GPM pumper flowing 2100GPM from a draft this past Thursday.

    (We had 3 hard sleeves in the water - both of the side intakes and the front intake)

    Lesson here is: There are many different variables that affect the actual pumping capacity of your rig. Many pumps will far out-pump their ratings if the proper conditions are present.

    Imagine what we could flow if we had a good strong hydrant. But our hydrants top out at 1500-1800 GPM in the best areas. (most are less than or around 1000 GPM)

    What was the original thread topic again???
    Last edited by IronsMan53; 02-24-2007 at 09:28 PM.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    How about a little FAE work here. A firepump is designed to pump its capacity at draft at 150 psi. The pump will put out more because the incomming pressure from the hydrant lets the pump deliver its capacity with less effort. To get another 750 gpm out of the rig would be hard.
    ADSN, you've got it about 1/2 right, a fire pump isn't DESIGNED to pump its capacity at draft at 150 psi, it is RATED to that criteria. I'd suggest looking at a set of pump curves for a typical fire pump. 1901 fire pumps are very conservatively rated. As most know, pump manufacturers typically use just a few different pump models to market a wide range of pump ratings. How they do that is almost entirely based on RPM, some impeller differences, but the bulk of the difference is made up by RPM. Take that 1500 gpm rated pump and want to rate it to 1750, just spin it a little faster.

    Here's what a 1250 gpm Waterous CS will put out. At 1250 @ 150 psi, the pump is spinning at about 3200 RPM and requires about 125 HP at the pump. To achieve the 250 psi @ 50% (625 gpm) rating, you have to spin that pump to about 3900 RPM. HP there, about 150 HP required. Now, we know the gearing has to be there to get the pump to 3900 RPM (or you wouldn't get the 250 psi rating). Let's look at what the 1250 CS will do at 3900 RPM:
    1250 gpm @ 245 psi
    1500 gpm @ 225 psi
    1750 gpm @ 200 psi
    2000 gpm @ 150 psi

    The only thing you have to have is HP to achieve that performance. There is nothing in 1901 that would require the additional HP. If the truck delivers adeqate HP to achive the 1901 pump ratings, the truck is good to go. At 2000 gpm @ 150, likely need about 250 HP at the pump. There are obviosly losses, between the engine and the pump, but certainly with the larger HP engines out there, you will have the HP available to get this kind of performance. And these performacne #'s are all available at 0 psi intake. Add some hydrant pressure, and the performance gets even better.

    If you understand pump curves, the fire service leaves at lot of the right hand side of curves on the table. Just look at the CS numbers, if you have the HP to drive it, it is essentially a 2000 gpm @ 150 psi pump. But the pump is only part of the story, regardless of the rating - you've got to have the water supply, you have to get it the pump with least amount of FL, and you have to an efficient (low loss) way of delivering the larger GPM. The firer service seems to focus on the pump rating while the real bread and butter is in the water supply, hose lays, pump plumbing, etc.

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    Kfactor, better wording I agree. I'm sure with different conditions we might get closer to 2,000 GPM, but for us the bottom line is, to this point we haven't been able to get 2,000 gpm out the tip. Could be the Hale pump, might be the Elkhart automatic nozzles at the basket, could be the 4 3" lines we use to feed the truck instead of larger hose.

    Anyway, while we traditionally don't have pumps on our trucks this one would have been nicer if it had a pump.

  12. #12
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    I actually see a number of aerials in upstate NY set up as you described. Pump, no tank, primarily as a water supply for aerial master streams. That seems to make some sense to me - I'm not much of a fan of the monster quints. Still got to have the hydrant supply, supply lines, and plumbing to support the gpm objective.

    I get the biggest kick out of some New England depts that have gone from the days of the Maxim mid-mounts ladders to a rear mount tower with dual guns, 2000 gpm pump, etc. Take a look at the intake and they have the 2 - 2 1/2" siamese mounted on the main intake. Depts still running 3", maybe even 2 1/2" supply - 2007 rig with 1907 supply lines!!!

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    MembersZone Subscriber redbaron's Avatar
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    Very good Kfactor, nicely explained. Thanx

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    Quote Originally Posted by kfactor View Post
    I actually see a number of aerials in upstate NY set up as you described. Pump, no tank, primarily as a water supply for aerial master streams. That seems to make some sense to me - I'm not much of a fan of the monster quints. Still got to have the hydrant supply, supply lines, and plumbing to support the gpm objective.

    I get the biggest kick out of some New England depts that have gone from the days of the Maxim mid-mounts ladders to a rear mount tower with dual guns, 2000 gpm pump, etc. Take a look at the intake and they have the 2 - 2 1/2" siamese mounted on the main intake. Depts still running 3", maybe even 2 1/2" supply - 2007 rig with 1907 supply lines!!!
    Our 75' Mack/Baker has a 5" on the pass side & a 2 1/2" siamese on the drivers side with a 1000 gpm rated master stream!

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    RedBaron,
    I think it would be a surprise to many that a 1250 rated pump operated at its 250 psi speed will essentially provide you with a 2000 gpm @ 150 psi pump. And that's net pump pressure, any hydrant pressure on the intake side of the pump improves upon that performance.

    The Waterous CS pump performance has a very flat set of pump curves - you get the same pressure performance from churn out to 1500 - 1600 gpm or so. That's why it is still delivering 225 psi net at 1500 gpm. It starts to tail off after 1600 gpm or so, but your still getting 150 psi performance at 2000 gpm. Add even a moderate amount of supply pressure, and you've probably got 2250 gpm @ 150 psi performance.

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    Just a question, but isn't 500 well placed gallons better than 2000 gallons of water running off a roof ?

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    Default back to the orginal topic...

    Didn't TL3 run as a quint? Of course it never will now after that accident with Boston EMS.

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    "skipatrol8: Didn't TL3 run as a quint? Of course it never will now after that accident with Boston EMS."

    It DID and if i remember correctly the bucket got totaled on that one accident. TL3 i want to say had a 1500 GPM pump that supplied the bucket with water, no hosebeds that i know of except possibly a crosslay for supply

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by AXEYAZ View Post
    Just a question, but isn't 500 well placed gallons better than 2000 gallons of water running off a roof ?
    Depends....Is the water running down into the flames or just going nowhere???

    Personally i'll take brute force over precision ANY DAY.

    Mike

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber redbaron's Avatar
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    Brute force should be a last resort, that's usually when somebody gets hurt anyway. Fire Science and a good IC with a well trained team can win every time. But Brute Force is also nice to have.
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