Thread: Response

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    I was wondering how fast people from other departments responded to incidents
    Most of the members in my department will do around 50-60 on a main road, 70 tops on a clear road depending on the truck, 70 in an 80,000 pound tower wont work

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    Depends on many factors...traffic, weather conditions, nature of the call...and of course department SOG's.

    For us the limit is 10 over and stop at all stop signs and red lights. We do have opticoms which help, but still slow down at intersections. On the highway we don't get too much faster than the speed limit so will turn off the lights and go with traffic.

    It isn't a question of getting there fast, but getting there SAFE!!

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    Probably a mistake, but I'll bite.

    Department policy is a max of 10 mph over the speed limit under ideal conditions. That means for us a max of 65 on the main 4-lane divided through our district and a max of 80 MPH on the interstate, which IMO, is way too fast for a 30-38,000 vehicle.

    Personally I would like to see our overall policy lowered to the speed limit. There is really no need to exceed it. The time savings is minimal.

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    Oh, how I wish we could train people to simply slow down and go more or less with traffic. Strictly enforcing the 10-over rule on guys who feel like they must PEG the speedometer at 10-over means they are watching the damned speedometer instead of the road.

    You'll find that you drive at about the right safe speed if you softly sing the theme to Mr. Roger's Neighborhood while driving the BRT to a job. Mute the headseat mic first, though.
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    On divided/shouldered highways we allow up to 10 mph over the limit, dependant on conditions. Any other road (including non-shouldered, divided highways) the speed limit may not be exceeded, especially in residential areas.

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    ElectricHoser, isnt that pic you posted used by E-ONE right now for an advertisement? haha, wouldnt that be something

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinFFVFD View Post
    ElectricHoser, isnt that pic you posted used by E-ONE right now for an advertisement? haha, wouldnt that be something
    Yes, one of the dumbest advertising concepts EVER.
    You only have to be stupid once to be dead permanently
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    Operating a piece of fire apparatus in excess of the posted speed limit, results in an accident. If you are on a freeway and the speed limit is 65 then if the truck can go that speed and it is SAFE to do so then it is permitted. If you are in a city and most cites the street is congested at best, then the post speed limit, usually 25 MPH is your best bet.

    First thing you have to remember as a driver of a piece of fire apparatus is:

    You may have the lives of 4 or 5 members, including your self in your hands. If you drive reckless and with out any regard to safety then you will have a bad day. Would you want to have the deaths or injuries of your Brothers and Sisters on you hands for the rest of your life, providing that you survived as accident??

    Any officer with any salt, will make you drive with due caution and not speed in residential streets with heavy traffic. There are fire departments and a lot of them that take safety as a number ONE priority. If you exceed the speed limit, drive reckless or run a traffic light or blow a stop sign, then you are warned ONCE. If you do it again then you are relieved of driving and charges are brought on you. Even the Officer can have charges brought on them by other members of the company or chiefs officers.

    You are worth nothing at a fire scene if you don't arrive safe and alive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricHoser View Post
    Oh, how I wish we could train people to simply slow down and go more or less with traffic. Strictly enforcing the 10-over rule on guys who feel like they must PEG the speedometer at 10-over means they are watching the damned speedometer instead of the road.

    You'll find that you drive at about the right safe speed if you softly sing the theme to Mr. Roger's Neighborhood while driving the BRT to a job. Mute the headseat mic first, though.

    ???


    I swear that I could see a copyright symbol from E-One at the top right part of this picture that you posted. I hate to think what else you are posting in here with copyrighted materials like this picture!!
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    Here is what I tell new drivers:

    Imagine that while driving the truck or your POV to a call, that the punishment for ANY accident (driving into the ditch or smacking a mailbox, etc) will be having someone draw a big X on your forehead with a permanent marker until such time that it can be permanently tattooed on after the shift. Would you forever drive differently if you knew you risked having to explain the tattoo to everyone who looked at you funny for the rest of your life?

    In reality, you wreck the truck and are at fault, you WILL be marked for life. You kill someone else, civvie or in uniform, the entire DEPARTMENT is marked forever.

    That's why there's a "Sharpie" hanging in plain view of the driver in the trucks.

    Think. Slow down. Go home after the shift.
    You only have to be stupid once to be dead permanently
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    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution
    and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy. - Dave Barry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allineedisu View Post
    ???


    I swear that I could see a copyright symbol from E-One at the top right part of this picture that you posted. I hate to think what else you are posting in here with copyrighted materials like this picture!!
    I added the copyright symbol myself and cited the source. I am not the first to post this image here or other places, but I think I am the first to make sure the image references where it came from.
    You only have to be stupid once to be dead permanently
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    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution
    and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy. - Dave Barry.

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    Our dept. had a class given by our insurance carrier. Very informative. He had many trial case verdicts to present. All of them dealt with accidents on the way to a scene and back from the scene. They all had one thing in common speed. Second thing in common death/injury. Last thing in common driver sent to PRISION and civily sued for millions of dollars. None of which the departments insurance covered.
    His biggest suggestion to us was to have every driver have a training log book. This proves adaquet training was given and may save you money and jail time. Many depts still dont require drivers to have a CDL to drive a truck in the district so without formal training you better have something to back up your right to drive a twenty ton plus truck.
    Just take a look at the pics from this weeks FDNY crash. We cant put the fire out if we dont get there in one piece. Ten miles an hour over the speed limit is max.
    I still look to see whos driving before I jump on the truck. Some I simply will not ride with, I'll wait for the next truck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allineedisu View Post
    ???


    I swear that I could see a copyright symbol from E-One at the top right part of this picture that you posted. I hate to think what else you are posting in here with copyrighted materials like this picture!!
    Hey fun cop, go write someone else a ticket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allineedisu View Post
    Operating a piece of fire apparatus in excess of the posted speed limit, results in an accident. If you are on a freeway and the speed limit is 65 then if the truck can go that speed and it is SAFE to do so then it is permitted. If you are in a city and most cites the street is congested at best, then the post speed limit, usually 25 MPH is your best bet.

    First thing you have to remember as a driver of a piece of fire apparatus is:

    You may have the lives of 4 or 5 members, including your self in your hands. If you drive reckless and with out any regard to safety then you will have a bad day. Would you want to have the deaths or injuries of your Brothers and Sisters on you hands for the rest of your life, providing that you survived as accident??

    Any officer with any salt, will make you drive with due caution and not speed in residential streets with heavy traffic. There are fire departments and a lot of them that take safety as a number ONE priority. If you exceed the speed limit, drive reckless or run a traffic light or blow a stop sign, then you are warned ONCE. If you do it again then you are relieved of driving and charges are brought on you. Even the Officer can have charges brought on them by other members of the company or chiefs officers.

    You are worth nothing at a fire scene if you don't arrive safe and alive.
    Operating a piece of fire apparatus (not sure the purpose of the comma, but okay) results in accidents?

    Always?

    I think we can use good sense and speed to arrive. Good sense. Speed. Combine them. I don't want someone driving to my house at 35 mph unless there's no other option.

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    Really it all depends on the call and who is driving. Im almost 99% sure that we dont have written SOPs.

    Some of the guys who have been driving for a pretty long time and are comfortable with the trucks sometimes hit upwards of 90 mph, but only in good weather and a priority call.

    And really, who dosent drive faster when the call is a working fire with subjects trapped compared to a wires down call? IMO, thats just human nature to want to get to a priority call faster, maybe more adrenaline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    Operating a piece of fire apparatus (not sure the purpose of the comma, but okay) results in accidents?

    Always?

    I think we can use good sense and speed to arrive. Good sense. Speed. Combine them. I don't want someone driving to my house at 35 mph unless there's no other option.



    Maybe in your little world of Texas you can fly low and go as fast as the truck can go. In the real world my friend and on the East Coast, we abide by the rules and operational procedures of the department. We obey the rules on the road and those set forth by the Commonwealth. In other words, we obey the law here. I haven't in my time seen streets in an urban city where you could exceed the posted speed limit. Most of the time if you get up to 15 to 20 mph you are very lucky, beside where are the civilian vehicles suppose to go with traffic as heavy as it is here.

    As I said in the first posting, you violate the rules you will pay the price. We have enough accidents obeying the rules as idiots in private vehicles could care less if they get in your way or not let alone turn down the boom boxes to hear the Q's on the trucks. You guys probably don't have any of these problems in the wide open spaces.
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    And it's the mark of a professional driver (which I mean in a trained sense, not a volunteer/career sense) to control that adrenelin and drive at a safe and sensible speed.

    90 MPH in a 38,000 engine or a 30,000 rescue with a 4-man crew is not safe or reasonable on any road in any condition responding to any type of call now matter how experienced the driver. Reaction times are too short and stopping distances are simply too long.. That's just my opinion.

    But the fact is that the "we need to get there NOW" mentality has to change if we are going to reduce apparatus accidents and the resulting civilian and firefighter injuries and deaths.

    Nothing is that important or that serious requiring us to drive more than 10 MPH over the limit, much rather 20 or more.

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    No set speeds, just drive with "due regard". That said we also do training on a regular basis. We also discuss response speeds. Activated fire alarm, third out truck, chief in route, take it easy, probably no need for lights and sirens except some guys like to play with them. MVA with entrapement, EMTon scene calls for helicoptor. Recsue move out with some urgency. Second truck, a bit less urgency. Structure fire, kitchen only at this time, get the lead out for all. Structure fire, fully involved, you aren't saving much, don't dawdle, but there is really no rush. Car fire on the side of the road, take your time. By the time you get dispatched the thing is toast.

    So as you see, it isn't about setting some absolute speed, but rather about knowing your abilities, the situation, and the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allineedisu View Post
    Maybe in your little world of Texas you can fly low and go as fast as the truck can go. In the real world my friend and on the East Coast, we abide by the rules and operational procedures of the department. We obey the rules on the road and those set forth by the Commonwealth. In other words, we obey the law here. I haven't in my time seen streets in an urban city where you could exceed the posted speed limit. Most of the time if you get up to 15 to 20 mph you are very lucky, beside where are the civilian vehicles suppose to go with traffic as heavy as it is here.

    As I said in the first posting, you violate the rules you will pay the price. We have enough accidents obeying the rules as idiots in private vehicles could care less if they get in your way or not let alone turn down the boom boxes to hear the Q's on the trucks. You guys probably don't have any of these problems in the wide open spaces.
    Is it little or big? You seem to be saying both. Perhaps it's a grand statement about the dichotomy of man.

    You go as fast as is reasonable. My statement doesn't contradict yours, it perfects it. We agree after a fashion. Sometimes, when the cattle drives is really going, we have to slow the horses down jest like in the big cities when you have to stop for the rats bursting from the effluent sewers.

    And then, of course, there's the CHUDs...

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    DEAD HORSE!!!

    Our SOG says we "...must drive with due regard."

    This includes factors such as weather, traffic, nature of call, truck conditions, road conditions, day, night, etc. If you crash, you were not driving with due regard so therefore you are in violation. You just can't simply put a MPH to adhere to. Sometimes, 10MPH is too fast.
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    Yeah Dickey, a Dead Horse! Starting to smell also.

    One last feed to the dead horse.

    Most departments have some sort of rules or regulations for drivers of fire apparatus and for how fast that they can or cannot drive. As some have said, it depends on the area you are in, open road, crowded city streets and so on. My old department had a regulations or procedures that govern how fast a piece of apparatus could or should be driven. Not saying that the vehicle must come to a stop at red traffic signals and or stop signs. Well with this in place the vehicle did really get to go as fast as the speed odometer had on its face.

    Years back when there wasnít as much traffic and we didnít have rules that are now in place, we drove probably as fast as we could. Yes there were accidents then. Fire apparatus running into other fire apparatus at intersections, apparatus running into private own vehicles, just about everything. Then after one of our member died from one of these accidents, the wrath of the Fire Chief came raining down. Procedures were written and put into place mandating the apparatus making an emergency run shall not exceed the post speed limit no more than 10 MPH and shall stop at all red traffic signals which and if they are in the path of travel and to stop at stop signs. Stop means just that. A complete stop and proceed when the traffic clears or moves to allow the apparatus a clear path to proceed. In Virginia the state code is written to allow emergency vehicles to proceed through traffic lights when they are red in the direction from where the emergency vehicle is approaching, if it is green and must come to a complete stop if the signal is red. This applies to stop signs as well, a complete stop. Now that cities, counties have installed the opticom devices, this allows the approaching emergency vehicle to turn the signal to green.

    Having said this, drivers now days do abide by the rules far better than the older guys who where use to driving fast, busting through red traffic signals and stop signs. The officers are held accountable for the unsafe action on the drivers of that apparatus that they are riding in.

    I like older guys, do not want to attend another funeral of a Brother or Sister that was killed in an accident caused by another firefighter driving to fast or by running into another piece of apparatus at an intersection.

    Thatís all I have to say about that!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    It might be a dead horse, but it doesn't hurt to keep repeating it. Seems some people just don't get it, others forget over time. It's a dead horse that gets revisisted once a year in our department.

    Of course, we have a few "know-it-alls" that think it is a waste of time. Then again, they are the worst offenders.

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