Thread: vehicles

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    Default vehicles

    still contemplating applying for a quint this year, went back through the vehicle awards for AFG2006 and found only 11 awards for aerial apparatus thus far...
    an interesting stat - 10 of the 11 awards were given to departments with a population of less than 34,000 and 7 of those were less than 15,000....any ideas why?
    the only large department awarded an aerial was madison wisconsin with a population of 209,000...

    just scratching my head.....

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    The most logical explanation for the low population is who is recieving the apparatus: rural departments. According to the workshop 94% of the apparatus have gone to rural departments since the inception of the program. Urban/suburban departments have not been applying for apparatus (according to the FPS) for the following reasons:

    1) Most departments order multiple units (limited to 1 under AFG)
    2) Most departments have an apparatus replacement program in place.

    Therefore the changes for this year, where urban/suburban departments can apply for more than 1 piece of apparatus (limited 1 per station).

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    I'd be curious to know how much automatic/mutual aid agreements would play into it. If the departments have an aerial they're running a number of calls with, perhaps they're showing enough need to get it done. I'm thinking it'd be worth seeing how they showed the need in the narrative, for sure.

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    look up the demographics for those departments, very interesting.....i'm positive i can show our need for an aerial, but seeing a narrative from a smaller department that was successful would be helpful....i am under the impression from other posts that mutual aid calls don't carry much weight, some say it does and some say it doesn't....where are the peer reviewers and their insight when you need it!!!

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    We are in the early planning stages for replacing our first out truck. It is a 1987 Ford with top mount pump. The truck is equipped with a 1,000 gallon tank and 1,000 GPM pump. The biggest problem we have is interoperabilty with our other equipment as well as neighboring departments. Additionally, we live in a rural area and people are starting to put homes and structures in very difficult areas to get to. They are on the sides of the mountains, down by the lake and way off the road. We are also expsosed to all sorts of weather conditions from flooding to heat waves to snow and ice.

    We have been able to put away $15K to $20K per year towards the purchase of a new truck, that amount is currently around $80K. However, at that pace it will take nearly 10 years to replace a single vehicle. With 5 vehicles that puts us on a 50 year rotation.

    The proposed truck would have a 500 gpm pump, 750 gallon tank, all wheel drive, cab with air packs in the seats, 2000 feet of LDH, necessary tools and equipment, and a GPS system.

    Questions.

    Is it better to ask for the total amount of the truck and equipment or should we only ask for the funds needed to fullfill the requirement?

    The new configuration will add more functionality, more capability. It will also give us the ability to do more with less. Will this be a good thing in the eyes of the reviewers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    We are in the early planning stages for replacing our first out truck. It is a 1987 Ford with top mount pump. The truck is equipped with a 1,000 gallon tank and 1,000 GPM pump. The biggest problem we have is interoperabilty with our other equipment as well as neighboring departments. Additionally, we live in a rural area and people are starting to put homes and structures in very difficult areas to get to. They are on the sides of the mountains, down by the lake and way off the road. We are also expsosed to all sorts of weather conditions from flooding to heat waves to snow and ice.

    We have been able to put away $15K to $20K per year towards the purchase of a new truck, that amount is currently around $80K. However, at that pace it will take nearly 10 years to replace a single vehicle. With 5 vehicles that puts us on a 50 year rotation.

    The proposed truck would have a 500 gpm pump, 750 gallon tank, all wheel drive, cab with air packs in the seats, 2000 feet of LDH, necessary tools and equipment, and a GPS system.

    Questions.

    Is it better to ask for the total amount of the truck and equipment or should we only ask for the funds needed to fullfill the requirement?

    The new configuration will add more functionality, more capability. It will also give us the ability to do more with less. Will this be a good thing in the eyes of the reviewers?
    I'm sure one of the Grant Yodas will apply their knowledge, but I think you're going to have a hard time as competitive as apparatus are going to be this year. The biggest question is how old is the rest of your fleet?

    Second, if I was reading your narrative, why would I give you funding for a truck that's not going to have the pump and water as the one you're replacing. At the same time, if you're saving $15-20K per year, you've got enough to take out a loan, lease-purchase, or get it by some other means while there's departments out there that have that kind of money as their entire budget (including my department).

    From what I'm seeing, you're already half-way with your money saved to what you're describing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    We are in the early planning stages for replacing our first out truck. It is a 1987 Ford with top mount pump. The truck is equipped with a 1,000 gallon tank and 1,000 GPM pump. The biggest problem we have is interoperabilty with our other equipment as well as neighboring departments. Additionally, we live in a rural area and people are starting to put homes and structures in very difficult areas to get to. They are on the sides of the mountains, down by the lake and way off the road. We are also expsosed to all sorts of weather conditions from flooding to heat waves to snow and ice.

    We have been able to put away $15K to $20K per year towards the purchase of a new truck, that amount is currently around $80K. However, at that pace it will take nearly 10 years to replace a single vehicle. With 5 vehicles that puts us on a 50 year rotation.

    The proposed truck would have a 500 gpm pump, 750 gallon tank, all wheel drive, cab with air packs in the seats, 2000 feet of LDH, necessary tools and equipment, and a GPS system.

    Questions.

    Is it better to ask for the total amount of the truck and equipment or should we only ask for the funds needed to fullfill the requirement?

    The new configuration will add more functionality, more capability. It will also give us the ability to do more with less. Will this be a good thing in the eyes of the reviewers?
    From a previous posting.

    Secondly, we need to replace our 1981 first out truck with 10,000 miles on it. The age our mileage isn't the problem, the problem is interoperability.

    Of course the list above is just a wish list at this time. I can easily tie the washing machine and boots together. We have been able to address all of our other PPE needs through other sources, these are the things that have still not been addressed. An alarm system and biometric entry system can be addressed as a need to secure and protect the building. Small power equipment can be tied together. The cascade system stands on it's own. So as you see, we have 4 potential projects plus a truck.

    Another question on the truck if you will. We have a fund set aside with nearly $80,000 in it. Would it be better to ask for the remaining funds are the whole amount. We are looking at a class A pumper/tanker for around $250,000. Side note, some think we can the truck for around $200,000. Which is nice, but they always seem to forget all of the other stuff that needs to go on the truck.
    To get sound advice you have to have a sound plan, the 2 postings conflict on what you are looking to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    To get sound advice you have to have a sound plan, the 2 postings conflict on what you are looking to do.
    Actually, the first posting is an all inclusive thing. It appears that in this year you will be able to ask for a vehicle as well as fire fighter safety and operations. The two are in sync. Just that the second addresses just hte vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    Second, if I was reading your narrative, why would I give you funding for a truck that's not going to have the pump and water as the one you're replacing. At the same time, if you're saving $15-20K per year, you've got enough to take out a loan, lease-purchase, or get it by some other means while there's departments out there that have that kind of money as their entire budget (including my department).
    The amount of water is actually a hinderance, it adds weight and size to the vehicle. And like I said, we are in the early stages. The 500 gpm pump was my thought, I believe a pump this size will easily supply enough water to run four handlines. If not, we can up that number. This vehicle will have the added capability of all wheel drive, which will allow us to get up some of the mountainous terrain as well as the off road locations around here. It will also help us to get into some of these locations in times of snow and ice. The truck should be equipped with 2000 or 3000 feet of LDH and a GPS. The GPS will be used to tell me when I am close enough to start dropping the LDH. Right now it is a guessing game.

    We also have the issue that this truck uses the old lever style of pump control, the newer trucks use the electronic push buttons. At a recent fire (the one in my own home) the pump operator for the first out truck pulled on side and promptly announced to me that he didn't know how to run the pump. This despite having shown and trained him at least 4 times that I know of. For people who don't do this everyday it gets confusing.

    Additionally, this first out truck is set up for 4 inch hard suction hose, the rest of our trucks use 6 inch suction. Just more chaos when we don't need it.

    There are far more benefits that I could go into. And I know that it will be highly competitive this year. But I feel we need to give it our best shot. My theory on having 1/3 of the money is that it shows we have been trying and doing some planning. I would hope that we would not be punished for trying to plan. There are those out there who don't plan at all and then cry for help when they are in a crisis situation.

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    Smile HotTrotter

    Sounds to me like your describing the need for a brush/quick attack truck. I don't think a 500gpm pump even meets NFPA for an Initial Attack apparatus? 750 gallons of water is not a tanker class truck either? If you don't have a brush truck, you will have a better chance considering your Pumper is just 20 years old (Low priority), or 26 y.o. if it is an 81 not an 87, which you mention both years.

    I wouldn't waste my breath mentioning a GPS in any application, if it is this important to you, spend $200 of your reserve and buy it now.

    I think most of us could spec. a brand new brush truck with a skid mounted pump for less then $80,000.

    Need to decide what is the priority pumper/tanker or quick attack and what has the best odd's for you.

    Good luck.

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    I knew you wouold do this. From NFPA 1901, Chapter 6

    6.2 Pump minimum GPM 250 gpm Plus requirements of Chapter 16
    6.3 Water tank of 200 gallons Plus requirements of Chapter 19

    Now I didn't read the additional chapters. Additionally I don't know how the ISO fits in all of this.

    Your primary attack truck shoul dbe lightweight, equipped with tools, and have lots of LDH on it to get the water too it. If we need to shuttle water, which happens most of the time, yo want the portable pond out where it is easy to get to.

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    Default my 2 cents

    "We also have the issue that this truck uses the old lever style of pump control, the newer trucks use the electronic push buttons. At a recent fire (the one in my own home) the pump operator for the first out truck pulled on side and promptly announced to me that he didn't know how to run the pump. This despite having shown and trained him at least 4 times that I know of. For people who don't do this everyday it gets confusing. "

    This is just my two cents worth and probably doesn't mean much. But with any apparatus granted you HAVE to commit to driver/operator training. You can implement this when grant awarded, but if I was reading that part of the narrative, I would have to ask what kind of training program is already in place that may not be effective and what is your department going to do differently to ensure that ALL members can safely and efficiently operate the apparatus. Just because the truck has electronic push buttons, still does not mean that members are going to know how to use it. If this guy had trained on it before, theoretically he should have known what to do. He could very well not understand "push button" methods either. As you know, there are more factors to consider.

    If I were to add that example as a basis in my narrative, I would no doubt show what policies the department will put in place to ensure that all members will have to pass off driver training and pump operations to standards and that the above incident should not occur again. Of course, we can not control everyone but putting policies in place to correct problems or keeping future problems from arising is a must, because safety of all involved is a priority.

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    ISO doesn't fit anywhere technically. The NFPA reasons an ISO score goes down are what are important.

    And you are describing a quick attack, but wanting to replace a Class A with it. Project does not directly address the operational deficiency, so you'll have an uphill battle why a smaller truck without a big enough pump to handle attack operations is the right truck for you in your situation.

    And this lever vs pushbutton thing will kill your app if it makes Peer. If someone doesn't know what to run the lines at then no amount of technology will get the water from one end to the other. That's a training issue that needs addressing, a new truck won't help. Same with knowing where to drop the LDH, it's called preplanning. And that's not Grant Brian talking, that's former Captain and Training Officer Brian talking. I'd rather have levers anyway, nothing but trouble on numerous trucks with electronic valves.

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    We will leave the lever issue out of it, as you say, that is training. The operational deficiency that we have is that our initial attack truck, which is a class a pumper, cannot get into some of the areas and homes around here. The other thing that happens is the first out gets a 30 second head start and the other 2 trucks are right behind it in no time. We need to get something that is quick, maneuvarable, can operate in various conditions and terrains, and still supply enough water to run a minimum of 4 hand lines. If we need more hand lines you would bring in a second truck, but usually that means major fire structure or save the cellar. 95% of the fires can be extinguished with little or water and one or two lines. You can at least slow things down until the troops arrive.

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    First, you want to run HOW many handlines on a 500 gpm pump? What size? I can't even begin to see running more than 4, to be honest 4 is pushing it. And you want a minimum of 4?

    I also wonder what kind of strategy it is to "hold" the fire until the "troops" get there.

    Why did you buy the engine in the first place if it cannot get into many locations? Is that your only reason for removing it?

    What size LDH are you looking at? What kind of suction inlet are you looking at on a 500 gpm pump? Are you thinking you will find a 6 inch suction inlet for a 500 GPM pump?

    I would go ahead and go with a big pump - cost benefit much better, and it won't increase the size or weight too much

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    And what of your ISO rating? a first out engine with only a 500 GPM pump is bound to cause some real issues come inspection.

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    Talking HotTrotter

    As a student and disciple of Grant Master BC79er or BRAIN as many people keep posting, I will try to rephrase the point I was trying to make to help you out. I'm writing this year for a skid mounted pump to convert our 4x4 truck to a brush truck and nailed a tanker grant in 2004. Trucks are so highly competitive, you probably have about a 0.1% chance of getting a grant for an NFPA 1901 Initial attack apparatus based on the limited info you have provided on this forum and the scope of what you are explaining. If it was my grant app, I would build the exact same truck to do the job you want, just call it a quick attack/brush truck under NFPA 1906 on your grant and your odds may go up a lot, especially if you don't currently have a quick attack/brush truck. Having None of a priority vehicle for a rural dept. gets you more competitive advantage then having a 20 y.o pumper and may just be enough to get you to peer. You can always add extra equipment to your NFPA 1906 truck in the future. The game is all about beating the computer and peer. I don't think any peer reviewer that is from a rural dept. would believe that replacing a class A with a "mini" pumper makes a good cost/benefit statement. You might as well drive your pickups and hand out beers and pee on the fire, as most structure fires more then one room & contents won't ever be put out with a 500gpm fire flow. ISO provides formula's to calculate needed flow and 500 is the bare minimum on their chart. You'd get the big DJ if I was reviewing this one. All of your info fits into a strong need for an NFPA 1906 brush/quick attack. You got to decide what is more of a priority a new Class A or a quick attack and the odd's of beating big blue. LOL.

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    OK, Perhaps we can up the size of the pump without to much of a problem. The idea is to make the truck lighter, more maneuverable and able to get into places that we currently cannot. Last year we had an incident where a home owner had built a house 1/2 mile of the road, up a hill overlooking the farm. Place caught on fire in early April. We were unable to get our truck all the way to the top because of the ice on the driveway. We dragged LDH for 500 yards and set up manifold for 3 1 3/4 inch lines. We were able to convert the cellar into a swimming pool . Better yet, Joe Home Owner says "They didn't want to save my house anyway".

    I believe it will be impossible to replace a 20 Year Old truck, with the same thing. I do believe that by adding capability or new functions we can indeed justify the new vehicle. Or as one has put it, build an entirely new truck called a rapid response/brush truck. That being said, I guess I need to know what the salient characteristcs of such a vehicle may be.

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    Talking HotTrotter, it is called the DHS Name Game

    DHS defines trucks based on their own rules and sometimes we can use this to our advantage. A tanker must have 1,250 gallons or more. So if a rural dept has only 2 pumpers, a 1987 and a 1997 each with a 1,000 gallons of water, they don't own a tanker. If they need a new pumper to replace the 87, and don't own a tanker, I'd apply for a tanker with 1,250 gallons of water or more and a 1,250 gpm pump. Let DHS call it a tanker, its a pumper in my mind. One way I have competitive advantage having No tanker, and the other way I have 2 pumpers less then 20 y.o and not a chance.

    This is the same scenario as with quick attack trucks and pumpers. I don't know where DHS gets their Type 1,2,3,4,5,6 engine classification from? Maybe someone else remembers how they split them. Use this to your advantage if you can.

    From the 2006 app.
    Engines (or Pumpers):
    Pumper, Pumper/Tanker, Rescue/Pumper, Foam Pumper, CAFS Pumper, Quint (Aerial device of less than 76 feet), Type I, Type II, Type III Engine

    Brush/Quick attack :
    Brush Truck, Patrol Unit (Pick up w/ Skid Unit), Quick Attack Unit, Mini-Pumper, Type IV, Type V, Type VI Engine

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    Angry What is the difference????

    Anybody know what the difference is between these definitions and where they come from, NFPA 1906, National Wildfire Coordinating Group, ??
    (Brush Truck, Patrol Unit (Pick up w/ Skid Unit), Quick Attack Unit, Mini-Pumper, Type IV, Type V, Type VI Engine)

    I reviewed the old program guidance, reviewed some old posts, called the help desk, read some NFPA and still scratching my head?

    I am looking at applying for a skid unit to put on an exisiting 1 ton 4x4 truck already equipped with a bunch of hand tools and portable tanks. I am not sure what this vehicle will be and what standard it will comply with in the end. Looks like a patrol unit by definition(Pick up w/ Skid Unit), but pretty hard to write a narrative when you don't even know what standard you are trying to meet and how this differs from a Brush truck?

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    If you're only applying for a skid unit to put in an existing truck then you're in the equipment side, not vehicle. Still will have to meet NFPA 1906 with the total package, not sure the subsection.

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    The quick and dirty message. You can look at 1901 on line for free.

    http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_document.asp

    You read this once, and when you are done you will still be scratching your head. Read it about 10 times and it al comes crystal clear.

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    Section 3.3.88 defines an initial attack truck.

    2 existing pumper tankers 1500 Gallon tanks, 1500 gpm pump, 1991, and 1999
    1 1987 pumper with 1000 Galllon tank 1000gpm pump

    Minimum requirements on an initial attack truck is at least a 250 gpm pump Primary purpose is to initiate and attack structural, vegitation, or vehicle fires.

    Pumper minimum is 750 GPM pump, 300 gallon tank.

    In essence, we have 3 pumpers/tankers and no initial attack truck.

    According to the guidance, priority one ofr rural areas is pumper, brush/attack, tanker/tender, quint (aerial < 76').

    Now for a new question. We have 3 pumpers, but no initial attack truck. Since all of these are in the same catagory does it mean we have 3 items like the one we are after?

    Oh yea, don't foget chapter 16 when reading chapter 6 and the eyes roll slowly back into the head and the brain becomes numb........

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    This may help in the classification of engines:

    Wildland fire engine types
    [

    PHP Code:
    Type        Gallons Capacity      Gallons Per Minute      Crew Size Minimum
    1                     400                   1000
    @150 psi                    4
    2                     400                    500
    @150 psi                     3
    3                     500                    120
    @250 psi                     3
    4                     750                     70
    @100 psi                      3
    5                     400                     50
    @100 psi                      3
    6                     150                     30
    @100 psi                      3
    7                      50                      50
    @100psi                       3 

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    There was a lot of initial attack vehicles and tankers thrown around the other day at the seminar. I think you will have twice the number of applications in the vehicle catagory this year, just from preliminary talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limeforever View Post
    There was a lot of initial attack vehicles and tankers thrown around the other day at the seminar. I think you will have twice the number of applications in the vehicle catagory this year, just from preliminary talk.
    I'm thinking the number of application will be around 20,000. Seems you can apply for both now, that will without a doubt open the floodgates.

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