Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 1234 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 91
  1. #1
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,154

    Default Critique the Technique...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlJG7yT8nI8

    I'm not going to "What Would You Do" this video, although it certainly lends itself to Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

    While I risk violating a principle a young Lieutenant told my even younger buck self many years ago to "Don't teach Don't" this video ends up being too good of a source of several issues that can be illustrated in action to point out to the new guys "Ok, you should be..." "And we do this because..."

    1) Name the five roles on a properly staffed hoseline.

    Although few of us ever have 5 people, each of those roles still needs to be addressed. How could've they been split or doubled/tripled up in a situation like this to get them done?

    2) What is noticeable about the first attack line when it was bled that wasn't corrected? (1:17 mark)

    3) What is noticeable about the first attack line when it was relocated to the "D" side? (4:05 mark)

    4) Without discussing the strategy & tactics point of view...if you committ to make a head-on assault of a garage fire (4:50 mark)
    a) What nozzle type is preferred, or stream shape should be used?
    b) How should the stream be worked? Where in the garage should it first be applied, and towards where should it be worked?
    c) What physical position should the nozzleman be in? (Hint: It has to do with being able to do "b" best).


  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Richfield, NC
    Posts
    618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmatian190 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlJG7yT8nI8

    I'm not going to "What Would You Do" this video, although it certainly lends itself to Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

    While I risk violating a principle a young Lieutenant told my even younger buck self many years ago to "Don't teach Don't" this video ends up being too good of a source of several issues that can be illustrated in action to point out to the new guys "Ok, you should be..." "And we do this because..."

    1) Name the five roles on a properly staffed hoseline.

    Although few of us ever have 5 people, each of those roles still needs to be addressed. How could've they been split or doubled/tripled up in a situation like this to get them done?
    This one i'm drawing a blank on right now

    2) What is noticeable about the first attack line when it was bled that wasn't corrected? (1:17 mark)
    Would it be that he didn't double check his pattern? he was in a fog and a straight stream would have worked much better.

    3) What is noticeable about the first attack line when it was relocated to the "D" side? (4:05 mark)
    I noticed two things only the nozzle man was sent with it and it was hung up all around the truck no slack man to pull more hose.

    4) Without discussing the strategy & tactics point of view...if you committ to make a head-on assault of a garage fire (4:50 mark)
    a) What nozzle type is preferred, or stream shape should be used?Straight Stream?
    b) How should the stream be worked?Front of the garage to the back Where in the garage should it first be applied, and towards where should it be worked?From the garage door towards the back of the garage
    c) What physical position should the nozzleman be in? (Hint: It has to do with being able to do "b" best)Would it be how he ended up at around 5:14 towards the middle almost beside the truck?.
    I made an attempt am I close

  3. #3
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    2,094

    Default

    Good video.

    I would not have taken the window, especially if the line was going to be used from the outside. Venting the window it appears gave the fire a good feed of air to follow.

    Since we get to see it from the beginning, we can do a size up. line through front door or back door (depending on knowledge of typical construction) and cut it off from the inside.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Wow.

    Some people expect that the fire department will show up with a well trained well equipped effort when that call 9-1-1.

    Wow.

  5. #5
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    2,094

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter2230 View Post
    I made an attempt am I close
    From the look on the outside, on pulling up I would guess one of two things:

    1. fire in the back of the garage, back door is open, allowing the column from the back.

    2. Fire in kitchen or laundry--behind the garage, either way.

    This tells me the same thing: DO NOT MAKE ATTACK FROM FRONT OF GARAGE!!!
    We put ourselves between the fire and what we are intending to save. We should focus on the house, not the landscaping or driveway. Interior attack. 1 3/4 will do just fine if it's pumped properly.

    What happens when we vent a window opposite the attack? The fire we are pushing with the pressure from our hose has a clear path of travel. Hence the debacle in the front room, which was previously suffering heat and possibly some rollover, but not the total involvement later as crews focused on dousing the garage and working D-side.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Westchester Co., NY USA
    Posts
    567

    Default

    As Dal said I'm not monday AM QBing but there are several decisions I probably would have made a bit different on a personal level.

    1) Name the five roles on a properly staffed hoseline.
    Although few of us ever have 5 people, each of those roles still needs to be addressed. How could've they been split or doubled/tripled up in a situation like this to get them done?

    The initial stretch to me looked good and I'm thinking yeah brothers go get that SOB. Then I see indecision, better utilization of incoming personnel perhaps.


    2) What is noticeable about the first attack line when it was bled that wasn't corrected? (1:17 mark)

    While it was short blast it sounded like all water, but it wasn't until later I noticed it got put on straight stream.

    3) What is noticeable about the first attack line when it was relocated to the "D" side? (4:05 mark)

    I notice a couple of things, the line is a mess, its looks like its caught under the passenger rear tire of the pick up and again as a hoseline member I can see me doing this but as an officer, I would be cautious about putting my personal between a fire that does not have good water on it and the exposure in such a tight alleyway.

    4) Without discussing the strategy & tactics point of view...if you committ to make a head-on assault of a garage fire (4:50 mark)
    a) What nozzle type is preferred, or stream shape should be used? Straight stream (if that nozzle) we would have smoothbore and I would have had a 2 1/2 pulled and replace the 1 3/4 line in transition.
    b) How should the stream be worked? Where in the garage should it first be applied, and towards where should it be worked?

    First thought with what I saw with the fire volume? Exposure protection in place...I'm dumping as much water as I can near the door leading into the house and then up into the ceiling space/void.

    c) What physical position should the nozzleman be in? (Hint: It has to do with being able to do "b" best).

    I'd prefer being in a position where I can full coverage of the garage.

    Again, I"m not perfect, just my thoughts.

    As far as the roof, you can't tell in the video but the smoke tells me even from arrival to the first line that the fire is gaining ground, based on side A appearance I think I would have stretched immediately into the interior. Some could make the argument this is aggressive and wouldn't comply with 2 in/2out on arrival of 1st due engine...but may have been successful.

    This also is a decent video for the debate of the effectiveness and timliness of vertical ventilation.

  7. #7
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    This tells me the same thing: DO NOT MAKE ATTACK FROM FRONT OF GARAGE!!!
    We put ourselves between the fire and what we are intending to save. We should focus on the house, not the landscaping or driveway. Interior attack. 1 3/4 will do just fine if it's pumped properly.
    The fire started in the kitchen, not the garage. This place was toast before it ever made it into the garage area. Other than kinking up a line, these guys looked alright to me. Many departments might have burned two houses and a pick-up truck that day.

  8. #8
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    2,094

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    The fire started in the kitchen, not the garage. This place was toast before it ever made it into the garage area. Other than kinking up a line, these guys looked alright to me. Many departments might have burned two houses and a pick-up truck that day.
    I believe I acknowledged that as a possibility.
    The front room was not showing fire on arrival. Breaking the window and then attacking from the outside was a bad decision. It was very late in the fire when the front room began to show fire and the roof never came down.

    By not burning down the exposure, they did well. But that doesn't mean it was the best possible thing. Not a single visible reason to avoid an interior attack at first. Might have gotten run out, but the attempt wasn't even made.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,820

    Thumbs up

    My thought is that all in all things turned out well. I had some doubts early on, but full control seem pretty evident at the end (12:58!) pretty nice.
    On the downside:
    *Nozzle bleed seemed pretty short and the pattern wasn't adjusted. It's a sin in our house for the knob to be set and left on fog. When it comes to the pattern: Right is right!!!!
    *I still like the first line through the main entry door(house door). If the fire started in the house then manage it from there first, the front of the garage was letting out plenty of heat and smoke.
    * A true walk around that sized up exposure 4 might have indicated the first line go there.
    * The line deployment was not great. Two guys had to work pretty hard to put the first line on the fire due to a poor stretch/load with little help from other guys passing the kinks (right in front of the PU). We have always been successful when we throw everything into getting the first line operating before stretching a second. Still though the fire is KO'd at 10-11 minutes, pretty decent job.
    *The line into the garage certainly should have been on SS from the beginning and working it in an "s" or clockwise (CA is above the equator right?) Also didn't notice anyone really make sure the overhead door was secured by bending the track or sticking a hook in it.

    I really can't knock them, again full control at 10-11 minutes with no significant fire in exposure 4! We've all probably seen a few places who would have gone right to the exposure and and written off the original fire and still looked like heroes. Hard to knock the end result. We might have done different but I'd be happy with the results any day.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 03-11-2007 at 04:29 PM. Reason: clarification

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    On arrival it seemed that there was alot of smoke coming from the "d" side or sector 4 or whatever the hell you want to call it. I'm sure we would drop two lines, one for the exposure and one in the front door. Houses with attached garages here are pretty rare though so I am not real familiar with these types of homes. As someone else said, whats with all the kinks and the other guys just walking past without staightening them out?

    Did it seem to anyone else that the guy showing the most sense of purpose was the guy stacking spare bottles? And wouldn't his services be better used helping get that line going? Or the second line? Or anything but goofing around with bottles???

    And whats with the fog?

    I hate to be too critical - a video of my company might show up one day!
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 03-11-2007 at 09:10 PM.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    P.S. Did anyone else want to punch the whiney guy talking in the video?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,017

    Default

    How many here would have had the roof cut as shown in the video? It looks like the house is one floor with a small attic or crawl space. IMHO, the guys on the roof could have been put to better use.
    -------------------
    "The most mediocre man or woman can suddenly seem dynamic, forceful, and decisive if he or she is mean enough." from "Crazy Bosses"
    -----------------------------------------------
    Genius has its limits, but stupidity is boundless.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Without really monday morning QBing, I just want to point out with video phones and cameras everywhere, everyone better prepare to be critiqued when more and more of these home videos start showing up. It was amazing to actually see the whole fire play out from a relatively moderate amount of smoke all the way to extinguishment. That seems like it would be a good training video though.
    I was actually surprised that the exposure house did not catch fire.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    214

    Default

    Good job by that dept in getting the job done.
    What I might have done different- I would have had the first line pulled to the D side to protect the exposure- dont want the video to be titled "TWO HOUSES BURNED DOWN IN MY CITY TODAY".
    Next line goes behind the garage to cut it off from the house.
    Something I think I noticed was the engine arriving and then they drag the supply line back down the street to a hydrant. My way is to never pass a perfectly good hydrant when you see smoke. Lay in, tank to pump, charge that first line and do hookup to supply.

    There have been times when I've had to attack big fire in a garage or large back porch when entry was impossible and I find it works best when I kneel down and make very tight circles in the cealing and move those circles around the cealing. This works like a heavy duty sprinkler system but doesnt push the fire into the house.

    Again-- these guys done good.

  15. #15
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    2,094

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CAPPYY View Post
    Good job by that dept in getting the job done.
    What I might have done different- I would have had the first line pulled to the D side to protect the exposure- dont want the video to be titled "TWO HOUSES BURNED DOWN IN MY CITY TODAY".
    Next line goes behind the garage to cut it off from the house.
    Something I think I noticed was the engine arriving and then they drag the supply line back down the street to a hydrant. My way is to never pass a perfectly good hydrant when you see smoke. Lay in, tank to pump, charge that first line and do hookup to supply.

    There have been times when I've had to attack big fire in a garage or large back porch when entry was impossible and I find it works best when I kneel down and make very tight circles in the cealing and move those circles around the cealing. This works like a heavy duty sprinkler system but doesnt push the fire into the house.

    Again-- these guys done good.
    I'm beginning to wonder if I saw a different fire.

    If the line went around to cut it off from the rest of the house, then that didn't work. The front room shows fire well after arrival and "attack"

    They vented a window and then proceeded to attack from a position basically opposite that window. How is that good?

    Entry impossible? I hope you're not talking about this fire. The front door was open and showed smoke, but fire doesn't vent until well into the fire.

    After arrival, the fire gained ground. Not burning down the house next door was good, but that doesn't explain the bizarre exterior attack and improper venting.

  16. #16
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,672

    Default

    1) Name the five roles on a properly staffed hoseline.

    For us, engine company will have officer with the line but not touching it, a nozzleman, backup, doorman, and a control. And they will be in that order from nozzle back.


    2) What is noticeable about the first attack line when it was bled that wasn't corrected? (1:17 mark)

    Kinks all over the place and lots of guys walking past them.

    3) What is noticeable about the first attack line when it was relocated to the "D" side? (4:05 mark)

    Still kinked and now wedged under tire of vehicle in driveway.

    4) Without discussing the strategy & tactics point of view...if you committ to make a head-on assault of a garage fire (4:50 mark)
    a) What nozzle type is preferred, or stream shape should be used?

    Nozzle don't matter, will be using a straight stream.

    b) How should the stream be worked? Where in the garage should it first be applied, and towards where should it be worked?

    Moving around the ceiling to start.

    c) What physical position should the nozzleman be in? (Hint: It has to do with being able to do "b" best).

    Down low.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    124

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CAPPYY View Post
    Something I think I noticed was the engine arriving and then they drag the supply line back down the street to a hydrant. My way is to never pass a perfectly good hydrant when you see smoke. Lay in, tank to pump, charge that first line and do hookup to supply.
    Later in the video it shows the intake side of the engine with the supply line running UP from the engine. From first blush it does look like the guy is running back down where they just came from to hook up to the hydrant, but then he stops and likely hooks it up just up the street from the engine.

    ChicagoFF, it does seem like the "bottle man" could have been put to better use, but I also notice the black helmet, which can mean many different things, but possibly in this situation he looks like an explorer or rookie since everyone else had on yellow, red, or white. Just an observation.

    Also ChicagoFF in answer to your second question, Yes. This guy lost his house, and there will be different reactions from different people, but he dose seem a little excited. "Put some water on that Bi***", as if the fire department dosent know what to do. Like I said he lost his house, and the reactions are endless, but I did have a feeling of shut up and let the firefighters do their work.

    From a rookie point of view, (which I am) I guess my first reaction would be get water where there is fire, (the garage), but then if you look a more sensible option would be the front door, or possibly a side, back door if one existed.

    Couple questions for some of you, why would the hole be cut in the un burned side of the house? Wouldnt this draw smoke and fire from the burned side, to the unburned side? Maybe im wrong on this one too, but could the attack been made from the front door, then a ppv fan put in behind the attack crew to contain fire to the garage once an opening to the garage from the main house been established? The only thing that would concern me would be it did sound like this did NOT start in the garage, but the kitchen, so maybe that wouldnt work.

  18. #18
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    Did it seem to anyone else that the guy showing the most sense of purpose was the guy stacking spare bottles? And wouldn't his services be better used helping get that line going? Or the second line? Or anything but goofing around with bottles???
    I believe the guy in the black helmet stacking bottles is an Explorer.

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Guess I'll be the usual a-Hole: I thought this was a pretty good job. MGS3610: where do you get off with the WOW " These guys did a good job under the circumstances, what "vollie" outfit do you work for that would have done better? Public expects better from 911? What an a-hole you are. You probably would have been the guy placing air bottles on the ground. I don't think many of us would like to see the "controlled chaos" of our initial attacks on tape. JOHHNY: sometimes (not in this case), attacking from the garage directly may be the best option, so don't rule it out. My hat is off to these brothers who did a GOOD job. Oh yes, they left some kinks in the line? Some of us who operate with minimum manning don't have the luxury of a "control man" and gee whiz, we do the best we can do. I've seen a lot worse videos where there were obvious operational deficiences but this one seemed to be pretty straight up.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    191

    Default

    After watching the video I just noticed that it seemed they where short people -just an engine,truck and in the backround it looked like a pick up type squad. An 1 3/4 to me seemed like the wrong choice just because of the smoke conditions very black -unburned products of combustion- and a very hard push. Either a 2 1/2 or maybe even a quick attack through the garage with a monitor may not put out the fire but will dispurse the BTU's. If you look yes the house is burning but so is the smoke. Not being critical but just my observation

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Technique or Time to Finish Evolution
    By LtTim556 in forum Emergency Services Training
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-19-2005, 06:16 PM
  2. Make The Call #14. Technique Concerns....
    By lutan1 in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-02-2002, 12:36 AM
  3. Do you perform a post-incident critique?
    By SilverCity4 in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 04-19-2002, 04:28 PM
  4. The Sando technique
    By jfrd04 in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-28-2002, 06:07 AM
  5. Using a vertical crush technique
    By rmoore in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-19-1999, 12:34 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts