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  1. #1
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    Thumbs up T-Rex on the prowl once again.

    I recently had the distinct pleasure of being informed that Rosenbauer is going to have an articulating style boom available in North America. In fact, they have already spec'd one out for us for our upcoming aerial competition. A demo unit is reportedly going to be available mid-late this year.

    I have to admit, originally when I started working on evaluating what we needed I was quite partial to the Bronto. For the industrial site I work at, a ladder, while capable, just didn't provide the flexibility and versatility we needed. Everyone I talked to who knew about the subject seemed to be pointing towards the Bronto.

    Well, I started sparking up about it a bit in here and some gentlemen were kind enough to start hinting at an articulating boom known as B32 in Europe. A few more emails and it turns out Rosenbauer already had a spec done for our company, and had it called the T-Rex. I have to say, matching the spec with an equivalent Industrial Bronto- at least on paper... they are VERY DARNED CLOSE. At least to my low grade eye... Spec for spec...

    Anyone else hear anything about the T-Rex or had an opportunity to learn a thing or two about it? I am going to say this: Anyone currently looking for a Bronto or potentially looking for one in the next year should take a peek at this thing. I'm interested to see what E-One does in response to reestablish their domination in this market.

    I'm a little concerned about a brand new design and associated teething problems. Anyone have experience with brand new designs? Does it warrant the concern or are today's manufacturing technologies and computer design enough to mitigate those problems?

    Thanks in advance!


    Eno
    Last edited by Eno821302; 03-11-2007 at 02:02 PM.
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    DISCLAIMER: I am a Rosenbauer salesman for the local dealer.

    Yes, there will be a competitor for the Bronto on the market in the near future. Two demos are currently being built, and I believe that there has been some serious discussion with some Canadian departments regarding the rigs, quite possibly seeing the first delivery for North America in Canada. I should have more info available after April 1st, when I think all dealers will learn about the new product Rosenbauer (as Metz is now a sub-family)intends to introduce here.

    I have a lot of ideas and rumors that I've heard, but I don't want to put that out here until I know for sure.
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    Do you have a link where we could see a pic of this new boom?

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    Thumbs up

    All I have is a drawing available in the spec... but I have to be careful about disclosing that. Not too sure about how that works exactly. I'll leave that to the guy from Rosy to share. Suffice to say I've put the spec photo above one of the Bronto and except for the slightly raised roof- the two are almost exactly- and I mean ALMOST exactly the same. A few minor differences. We're looking at an industrial version of the bronto with the 118', and it is a clear foot taller than the Rex. Rex is a couple inches shorter, and has a shorter wheelbase (about 10"). Insofar as tip loads and all that good stuff, they're close- with the Rex coming in at 1000 (plus equipment) and Bronto is 1280. Wet, the two come in at 500 / 750 respectively. Each has it's "things" and while Rex seems a bit smaller and tends to shine on the bottom end, Bronto tends to shine a little brighter stick side. Rex has a bigger foam tank, carries more fuel, probably a slightly tighter turning radius... Like our Rosy dealer new truck rep said to me on the phone "There are some things they do better, and some stuff we do better."

    NPFD was actually (correction) one of the gentlemen who pointed me at the Rex originally- and as I mentioned once I investigated a bit further it turned out they're already finished the initial spec for my company. I thank you NPFD- getting that information has been crucial to my research.

    Eno.
    Last edited by Eno821302; 03-12-2007 at 12:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno821302 View Post
    All I have is a drawing available in the spec... but I have to be careful about disclosing that. Not too sure about how that works exactly. I'll leave that to the guy from Rosy to share. Suffice to say I've put the spec photo above one of the Bronto and except for the slightly raised roof- the two are almost exactly- and I mean ALMOST exactly the same. A few minor differences. We're looking at an industrial version of the bronto with the 118', and it is a clear foot taller than the Rex. Rex is a couple inches shorter, and has a shorter wheelbase (about 10"). Insofar as tip loads and all that good stuff, they're close- with the Rex coming in at 1000 (plus equipment) and Bronto is 1280. Wet, the two come in at 500 / 750 respectively. Each has it's "things" and while Rex seems a bit smaller and tends to shine on the bottom end, Bronto tends to shine a little brighter stick side. Rex has a bigger foam tank, carries more fuel, probably a slightly tighter turning radius... Like our Rosy dealer new truck rep said to me on the phone "There are some things they do better, and some stuff we do better."

    NPFD was actually the gentleman who pointed me at the Rex originally- and as I mentioned once I investigated a bit further it turned out they're already finished the initial spec for my company. I thank you NPFD- getting that information has been crucial to my research.

    Eno.
    Ledebuhr - I don't have photos of the T-Rex per se. There is an articulated boom called the B32 in Europe, how much architecture is shared between the European version and the North American version, I don't know. Given the basket weight capacities I see mentioned for the American version and what can be found about the European version, there are certainly some differences.

    Eno - Credit for mentioning the Metz option belongs to VanIsleEVT. I just opened my mouth a little and said a little more. Even my original comments about what I had heard the platform capacity would be appear to be off a little. I know the thing is coming, but not a whole lot more. I suspect at this point you know more about it than I do, but our annual dealer meeting is coming up and I bet we'll hear lots there.
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    From the looks of it, it looks like the first T-Rex has been sold. At least, that is what Rosenbauer's website is showing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddmcbr View Post
    From the looks of it, it looks like the first T-Rex has been sold. At least, that is what Rosenbauer's website is showing.
    I have also seen that on there " DEMO " page !...

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    Now that we've had our dealer meeting, I know more about the thing. If anyone is interested in such a device that fits into the "articulating and telescoping platform" category, I would at least give your local Rosenbauer dealership a call. There may be some things that you will like better on the T-Rex setup over what the competition offers.

    As always, remember - I sell them, so take my post however you wish.
    Last edited by npfd801; 04-07-2007 at 03:09 AM.
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    Thumbs up

    Hi guys. I have been doing some pretty heavy research on the matter. It's interesting because our local Rosenbauer dealer used to be an E-one dealer. In fact, most of the Brontos in the area were sold by this particular dealer. So it's interesting on one hand to get their feedback on the comparissons- on the other hand, I have to be cautious because of their new loyalty.

    I guess a couple of their remarks were prominent. Customer support from E-One was described as -basically- abismal and that is going to have a significant impact on the choice of apparatus. With that being said, all of my dealings with the folks at E-One while researching things project have been excellent and extremely helpful. I just hope they don't drop the ball once the sale is potentially made.

    I was under the impression that Rosy had 2 units sold but I may have just heard wrong. The first demo unit had something different about it than the second- I can't remember what it was anymore... but something wasn't quite 100% with it. The second one was allegedly going to be better. Maybe someone knows what the difference is going to be?

    A couple of areas I understand Rex will be superior are in horizontal reach, below grade reach (the boom can be lowered below horizontal), an extensively integrated safety system that, for all intents and purposes, is more flexible and comprehensive than Brontos', and a 10" raised roof for the folks in the back that E-One has room for but originally wouldn't do. E-One, on that note, never had articulating boom competition and I think now they're going to have to step up to the plate where before they could pretty much do what they wanted.

    Also, instead of sending the boom over here it sounds like the process will involve sending the truck chassis itself over to Europe to get the boom mounted. I think this will help avoid some of the problems E-One had with earlier Brontos, where torquing to one unit of measurement over the other resulted in some rather alarming occurences. Also, the folks over in Europe have been installing booms for a long time, and I personally think this will help smooth over the "marrying" process. Might add a bit to the cost, mind you.

    I have heard that Rosy was looking at increasing its tip load to about 1400lbs (dry) which, as you'll know from looking at the E-One site, is almost 200lbs more than the Bronto. Wet would be proportionately higher as well.
    The platform is only about 1square foot bigger than Bronto, with one larger access (by 10") to the front.

    They're proposing putting an 8FG pump in with a FoamPro Accumax foam pump (which I don't know much about) and that will crank out some serious performance. Seems about the same as the Indy Bronto that has the QMax pump and Williams HOT SHOT II foam pump. Disadvantage to the Indy, I've since learned, is that in order to convert the Bronto package over to the Indy, they've had to make some pretty significant sacrifices in other areas... storage space is cramped and reduced, the LDH hosebed is of transverse configuration and somewhat impractical, and the transmission seems to be limited in its gearing.

    Where Bronto still shines is in the structural rating of its boom and its safer chain extension / retraction system. It also provides a longer boom (by about 30 feet in the municipal version 134'). The fact that there are a number of Brontos on the market, and the amount of product improvement the model has seen over the past few years can't be ignored. Rex, on the other hand, can only look good on paper and I suspect it will be a couple of years before they get the kinks worked out.

    I'm also a bit nervous about a PC based diagnostic / control system- especially in my work environment where cold temperatures and dirt are the order of the day. You could leave an anvil outside and it would end up broken in a few hours. I'll do more looking into the system itself and see how it compares to the Bronto system, but I have a funny feeling that while the Rex gizmology will thoroughly outmatch the Bronto's equivalent system, that something simpler and more reliable will be necessary for our operations.

    As I've said before, good + good doesn't always equal good. And while I have a lot of confidence in Rosy / Metz to put a great product together... I'll have to see it to believe it.
    Ian "Eno" McLeod
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    Default Sounds Great!

    I am liking what I hear, and I am impressed with the B32 as well. Rosenbauer is certainly making a new forray into the aerial market with this and metz aerials, which are now called Raptors according to the demo page. I wonder what sort of chassis they'll use, Brontos are obviously on E-ones (older ones on pierce's), but Rosenbauer doesn't exactly have a huge fleet of custom chasiess out there.

    Now I wanna see a picture.

    Also-where can I see this Indy rig?

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    I would like to see Rosenbauer come up with a ariel that matches the 101m unit from Bronto. It would need to be NFPA compliant,ability to flow water at the tip,have bottle air and electric all at the bucket, and have the ability to short jack. just dreaming

    know one has any pics of this thing?

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    If you're looking for a photo of T-Rex I suppose I can email it. They included one with the spec we received. It is just a drawing, mind you- because they don't have one built yet. Unless you were talking about the 101- in which case there is a thread about it where someone was seeking the same thing. I can't remember what the address was for that.

    The industrial bronto is externally similar to the municipal, but again there are those subtle differences mentioned above. I have a few photos of a few that went over to Saudi Aramco that I can send if you drop me a line. It runs with a 118' tall boom as opposed to the 114 or 134. It can only have that boom, and can't go up to the 134 for design reasons.

    In all honesty, I have been remarkably impressed with what I have seen so far with the Rex. Unfortunately, it's all been on paper- and that's all anyone knows right now. The Rex is based on the Spartan chasis, and has that 10' raised roof giving 5'5" of room from the floor to ceiling. E-one is only 4'5" or so. Indy is also at a slight disadvantage for us because our bay is so short- and Indy is 43'2 while both Rex and Muni (up to 134) are 40 and change.

    Email me on here if you're interested in some of the spec drawings I have for either the Rex or the Indy. I call it Indy because I've been typing it so much I needed to cut it down. Industrial Bronto just takes too damn long for me to type!
    Last edited by Eno821302; 04-08-2007 at 06:30 PM.
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    The T-Rex that has been sold, and I believe two subsequent demo rigs that are also slated to be built, will be on Rosenbauer Commander (Spartan) chassis.

    Remember - while the T-Rex is a new design with regards to meeting the load and reach requirements of the North American market, it is based on a well-proven boom already in use in Europe, which is the B32. The computerized operating system is also already well proven, as it basically is making the jump from the Metz aerials and B32 already on the market, here and in Europe.

    If you have a specific foam system and fire pump requirement, I can't see why either builder couldn't match your needs. I'm not involved in the bid process, nor have I proposed a T-Rex to anyone yet, but given the willingness of Rosenbauer in general to work with customers to give them what they want - if you don't like the combo proposed on the T-Rex, ask for something different.

    The latest on the rig is that the bucket capacity is 1400 pounds, can be operated over the short jacked side (with limitations, of course), can be operated with both sides short jacked, exceeds the side reach available with the comparable Bronto, will operate faster, and so forth. I'm well aware of what our strengths are, so I'm sure the Bronto folks will be more than happy to tell you what theirs are.

    I don't like to try to come on here and push a product that I sell, so I won't continue. I want to verify or support what's already been said, or correct a mistake if I see one. If you have an interest in the product, contact your local Rosenbauer rep, and your E-One rep, and figure out which unit is right for you. The folks that bought the first one were well versed in what both products had to offer, and made their choice given their perceived needs.

    Obviously having a product on the street is worth something. That can't be remedied until the first one is here...
    Last edited by npfd801; 04-09-2007 at 12:50 AM.
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    I know you say you won't continue, but I'd appreciate your continued feedback. My understanding is that the B32 has undergone significant changes in order to obtain the required standards. Has so much of it been changed that it should be considered a completely different boom? As for the software in the control system being well tested- well... let me just say that it was no great comfort to learn that the control system is PC based... With that being said, will corrections to the product software be easily upgraded when the geeks who are writing all the associated code screw up?

    As for the pumps / foam pumps involved- the 8FG is very capable as is the Accumax foam pro- at least insofar as I have learned. I imagine the two (between the Indy and the Rex) are at least 95% equal, with one having some advantages and other having others. Where the foam pump issues arise are with the Muni- as storage issues in the Muni prevent a larger foam system from being included in the overall package. It's restricted to an "around the pump" foam system which is somewhat limiting. Nice thing about that is that while we suffer something in the way of foam application (which will likely be proportionned and pumped from our Big Gun pumper anyway) we get back so many of the other features that make the truck side of the Bronto so good. Lots of storage space, conventional side stacker LDH bed, fully functional transmission... etc.

    Now- if only they could raise the cab for us! E-One... are you listening!?
    Ian "Eno" McLeod
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    Eno-

    I'm happy to continue, as long as I'm answering questions, comments or concerns about something I can provide info for. I would expect the other dealers to do the same. I'm just trying to stay off my soapbox and not push selling points for a product no one has posed questions about. I've seen the natives get irate over spamming the forums.

    The existing PLC and newer CAN-BUS control system is not a PC based system. Sure, you can access the rig via computer for diagnostics and so forth, but the system operates independently of some sort of PC computer control where you have to worry about failures. I think if you asked Rosenbauer/Metz for info regarding where some of their aerials using the system are in service, you'll find extremely hot, cold, and harsh environments. Just the way Tony demos the things should be proof that the system stands up to harsh conditions! (I had to throw that in there, I'm sure he's watching.)

    I'm still researching and learning about how the "firmware" can be upgraded and such, and I don't want to make a statement about it until I have firm answers, but my instinct tells me that the system can be programmed to fit needs as the engineers see fit. I think this is how you see the CAN-BUS system being integrated into the Rosenbauer aerials built here in the states (RK, which has the option of using the system if you choose an option), and on the Raptor (Metz L32) and T-Rex (American B32). The architecture is the same for the system, the parameters with which it allows the aerial to operate are altered for a given performance envelope that the device is capable of achieving. I hope I'm making sense.

    I'll provide more info as I have it available, but wanted to get this much out.

    Also - anyone who wants literature for the T-Rex, send me a private message with your e-mail, and I'll send you a PDF version of the new brochure that has just been released. Hard copies should be available from your dealers before too long.

    Like always, take my opinions how you wish. I sell for Rosenbauer, and have an obvious bias.
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    It looks like the second T-Rex has been sold acording to the demo page on Rosenbauer's website. It shows they are both going somewhere into Alberta.

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    Part of the reason that E-One won't do a raised roof is because they have more room in a standard cab then a Spartan. I know that in some Spartans they have to have a raised roof, with an air ride seat, to meet NFPA for head room. Have you ever been in a raised roof aerial? There is not much room at all in the raised section. By the way, where was the T-Rex at FDIC in Indy? If it is so great why wouldnt they unveil it at the largest US Fire show? I will judge it when I see it sold on US soil. Oh and by the way, the RAPTOR, or the junk flying shopping cart, does NOT meet NFPA in many areas and if you want to know where just do a search of METZ on Firehouse and you will find it

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    We too have been shopping for new aerial models. In talking to Roze & Metz people, apparently this model is new and not due into USA until later this year, but they have taken "a few" orders for them in Canada. They had new brochures at FDIC for all their models, including this T-Rex, but seemed shy to discuss it in much depth. When we asked for more info it came out that they are holding back their major "push" until they have the actual truck for showcasing it.

    Update: after an e-mail from local Roze' sources, this aerial model is NOT new, just new to USA. I am linked to see pictures of similar European rigs in action. JAKE: The raised cab will be full width, no notch. They state a full 65" of headroom across all rear jump-seats. (unsure what E-one's flat cab is)

    Best of luck, JH

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    Quote Originally Posted by jake2415 View Post
    Part of the reason that E-One won't do a raised roof is because they have more room in a standard cab then a Spartan. I know that in some Spartans they have to have a raised roof, with an air ride seat, to meet NFPA for head room. Have you ever been in a raised roof aerial? There is not much room at all in the raised section. By the way, where was the T-Rex at FDIC in Indy? If it is so great why wouldnt they unveil it at the largest US Fire show? I will judge it when I see it sold on US soil. Oh and by the way, the RAPTOR, or the junk flying shopping cart, does NOT meet NFPA in many areas and if you want to know where just do a search of METZ on Firehouse and you will find it
    The best part of this whole reply is the shift of focus off the real discussion here (the T-Rex and Bronto), and highlighting two other things, cab headroom and a totally different aerial product.

    I'm sure E-One has never starting selling a product before there was an actual full fledged production model on the street, right?

    Jake - if you sell for E-One - great representation of the product and the company on here. If you look at what I've stated here on the forums - I've never said anything negative about the E-One/Bronto product. Great form with the negative sell...
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    Default Try reading what I say

    I am not at all being negative, I was simply answering the question of why E-One doesnt do a raised roof on aerials. I also stated facts that I know about how in some Spartans with an air ride seat you have to have the raised roof to meet NFPA. Don't hate on me because I answered someone's question with facts, silly me I thought I was helping clear things up

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    Quote Originally Posted by jake2415 View Post
    Oh and by the way, the RAPTOR, or the junk flying shopping cart, does NOT meet NFPA in many areas and if you want to know where just do a search of METZ on Firehouse and you will find it
    Yeah, no negativity whatsoever...
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    Question

    I have recently heard through other sources that the boom that the B32 / T-Rex uses is called the Wumag and wasn't incredibly popular in Europe. Sales were mentioned to have been limited. But with this being said, now that the boom conforms to north american standards- is it a "better" boom overall? Anyone from Europe familiar with the name?
    I know that Brontos were sold in Russia and Siberia- or at least, that's what I'm being told... as well as another boom called the Vema... The Wumag was conspicuously absent.

    Any ideas?

    As for the raised roof- the Indy has the short cab because of the foam pump... so that would be no reason why they couldn't raise the roof. By what I've learned today by talking to some of the guys from a nearby site similar to ours is that we'd definitely have to pair the Indy and the T-Rex... because the Muni around the pump foam system is not adequate.

    Anyone know where those T-Rex's are going?
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    Some info reveiled today: Metz and Rosenbauer together have sold over 25 units in Europe and have 5-6 more in production now. Three more being built for Hamburg. Several others built for the Dutch and Swedes. Wumag is a crane company with hundreds of various man-lifts throught Europe. I guess they are a large competitor with both Bronto (Finland) and Ikurus (Italy). VEMA (if I understand it right) is a small time outfit also in Finland and have some former Bronto persons on staff. New name and limited sales in the Fire service. The next quest for the Rosenbauer / Metz B-32 was to enter into the America's. Two official orders in Alberta, but I do not know where yet.

    It took me some time to understand the lingo in this thread. I guess "Indy" meant an Industrial unit, which carries more Foam capacity. Muni (typical municipal) is the everyday version. Unsure also why a raised cab is a problem, unless it drives the travel height way too high. The 118' Bronto is already at 12'-5", so I don't think they'd go much higher.

    JH

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    I'm a little confused on the Spartan with the air seat needing a raised roof to meet NFPA.Since Spartans raised roof series start the raise BEHIND the drivers seat.I just can't see where that's coming from.Our Spartan with a 10"raise has plenty of headroom over the drivers air seat.With the seat pumped all the way up,which you wouldn't do.I'm thinking the "facts",at least regarding late model Spartans,is a bit skewed here.Or maybe we come from a land of altitude challenged people(NOT!). T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 04-08-2009 at 09:18 PM.

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