Used SCBA

[Not2L84U2]

Someone was asking if used SCBA's that have been refurbed to meet the new standards are eligible. I looked in the PG and couldn't find anything. Anyone know? Anyone have any dealings with any of these vendors? I think one of them was Dalmation fire.

[Greenacres2]

I've seen some posts on here for SCBA refurb awards, so it's been eligible. Good cost-benefit if it extends the life long enough. Flip side--will it still be an eligible item IF the PG delay has anything to do with new SCBA standards??

earl

[Not2L84U2]

Excellent point Earl....guess we'll play the waiting game. Just concernd with an SCBA project that is going to total close to $100K for 13 SCBA, 8 spare face pieces, fixed compressor, mobile cascade, and RIT pack. They're an awful small department with about 100 runs a year and population of 2200 in a 30 sq mi area. Trying to keep those numbers down and increase cost-benefit.

[SLY4420]

Wondering how it will score...

A department wants to upgrade their 6 year old packs which do not include RIT connections and would also like to add about 9 more packs to give ALL riding positions a pack.

Go for just the 9? Go for 9 plus the upgrades?

[Not2L84U2]

Wondering how it will score...

A department wants to upgrade their 6 year old packs which do not include RIT connections and would also like to add about 9 more packs to give ALL riding positions a pack.

Go for just the 9? Go for 9 plus the upgrades?

I would say all or nothing...just my opinion here but wouldn't the goal to be 100% NFPA compliant. I would think you would want to go for the complete solution.

[onebugle]

Go for 6 upgrades & 9 new scba. As Not2L84U2 pointed out, want a complete solution meaning everything is 100% compliant.

[HotTrotter]

Upgrade the 6 year old packs and get the 9 new ones. It shows you are trying to be compliant and do so in a cost effective manner. Some people would just try to replace all of their packs, I would hope the reviewers would see through that and shoot it down rapidly.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Dalmation doesn't upgrade SCBA to current standards, they sell refurbished SCBA not necessarily to current NFPA standards according to their home page. What's on there now is pre-2002 compliance SCBA. Since DHS assumes that all purchases are for new equipment unless otherwise stated you have to go for 2007 compliant SCBA solutions. As far as I can tell they aren't a vendor for new SCBA.

A good deal if you need something better than what you have now on a limited budget, but definitely not grant application products where the goal is current compliance.

[Not2L84U2]

Dalmation doesn't upgrade SCBA to current standards, they sell refurbished SCBA not necessarily to current NFPA standards according to their home page. What's on there now is pre-2002 compliance SCBA. Since DHS assumes that all purchases are for new equipment unless otherwise stated you have to go for 2007 compliant SCBA solutions. As far as I can tell they aren't a vendor for new SCBA.

A good deal if you need something better than what you have now on a limited budget, but definitely not grant application products where the goal is current compliance.

That's the info I needed...thanks Brian

[ktb9780]

Wondering how it will score...

A department wants to upgrade their 6 year old packs which do not include RIT connections and would also like to add about 9 more packs to give ALL riding positions a pack.

Go for just the 9? Go for 9 plus the upgrades?

Sly , how many members in department? Don't exceed two in /two out or it will be considered excessive.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Might be inclined to agree if there were more seats than people in the department, but 2 in 2 out means that for every 2 in need 2 outside. So with a search and 2 lines there's 6 in, need 6 out to meet NFPA/OSHA so that's 12 packs. If you can bring 20 people to the fire you need 20 SCBA. The reason it's limited to the seats is that if it's too big of a fire you're inviting neighbors with their own SCBA anyway. But definitely no chief's cars, people movers, or training equipment is getting funded.

[ktb9780]

Might be inclined to agree if there were more seats than people in the department, but 2 in 2 out means that for every 2 in need 2 outside. So with a search and 2 lines there's 6 in, need 6 out to meet NFPA/OSHA so that's 12 packs. If you can bring 20 people to the fire you need 20 SCBA. The reason it's limited to the seats is that if it's too big of a fire you're inviting neighbors with their own SCBA anyway. But definitely no chief's cars, people movers, or training equipment is getting funded.

Personally, I agree in principle Brian however; my statement was made based upon some of the comments I have heard from a few reviewers that I have eno****ered in the last couple of years in "raising the greedy flag". Not saying that is right or wrong but, since the reviewers are the ones putting their stamp of approval here, I thought their "perceptions" might be important to consider here.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

But since their perception can't equip the department lower than NFPA standards they can't reduce quantities or take points of for doing. 1 air pack per seat is what they allow so that's what needs to be asked for. I have a few dozen reviewers that knocked people for not asking for enough of something. If you have 20 seats on apparatus, you need 20 SCBA. Doesn't do any good to have a truck without airpacks responding to a scene. But like I said, minor exception is if you have 20 seats and only 10 people in the department, ask for 20 because maybe the 10 is a temporary condition, but realize it needs to be addressed in the narrative and still may be reduced. Haven't seen it get denied yet just reduced, then again that's why I make sure those conditions are addressed. Average house fire takes 4-2FF teams on the inside, can't always depend on neighbors to show up, so that means every department needs 16 SCBA minimum unless you have fewer seats on apparatus. If you ask for too little your tactics & training invalidate the request.

[ncvfc17]

I can send you my 2004 narrative for a successful SCBA AFG grant if you wish. Send me an e-mail to northcentervillevolfireco@yaho o.com

[SLY4420]

Sly , how many members in department? Don't exceed two in /two out or it will be considered excessive.

Kurt (and Brian),

I've already got the narrative worked up and I'm just about complete with everything else. The bottom line is that their Tanker has no SCBA, and the other pieces are probably shy 2 a piece for riding positions. They would need 9 more to complete the project and have the members to clear all the riding positions.

My fear was going for the upgrades to the 6 year old packs to bring them into compliance with what the new packs would be.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Well, wouldn't be a complete solution unless all of the SCBA met 2007 standards, which would be easily seen in review. So there's your argument for them. If the 6 year old packs don't have CBRN, RIT, etc (2002ed) then how safe is it to have a fertilizer based fire and only some of the SCBA will protect the responders? Complete solutions get complete awards.

You know that John, stop messing with the people and making them think you don't know what's going on.

[SLY4420]

Haha, thanks Brian.

[onebugle]

In '04 we upgraded 21 SCBA (9 years old) to the current standard (2002)along with purchasing 4 SCBA to fill out riding positions. One of the key agruments was bringing the department to 100% compliance.

The other argument involved the cost/benefit. We could upgrade 3 SCBA for the price of 1 new SCBA. A substantial savings: $107,700 to purchase 25 new SCBA vs. $47,178 for 4 new & 21 upgrades.

[neiowa]

Excellent point Earl....guess we'll play the waiting game. Just concernd with an SCBA project that is going to total close to $100K for 13 SCBA, 8 spare face pieces, fixed compressor, mobile cascade, and RIT pack. They're an awful small department with about 100 runs a year and population of 2200 in a 30 sq mi area. Trying to keep those numbers down and increase cost-benefit.

How about deleting the compressor? The things are expensive to buy, need 3ph, and expensive to maintain (if properly done). Most small depts have 100 other things they don't have time for without adding on feeding a compressor (tracking/maint/etc).

Spend a little $ and add a few more large tanks on the mobile cascade system that you can have at the fire scene where you need it.

Or that the train of thought we went thru. We can drive a long way a few times a year to refill the cascade a lot easier/cheaper that feeding the compressor. Not as sexy/no bragging rights but works fine for us. There are lots of newish compressors around from the last 5yr of fire grants.

[Not2L84U2]

How about deleting the compressor? The things are expensive to buy, need 3ph, and expensive to maintain (if properly done). Most small depts have 100 other things they don't have time for without adding on feeding a compressor (tracking/maint/etc).

Spend a little $ and add a few more large tanks on the mobile cascade system that you can have at the fire scene where you need it.

Or that the train of thought we went thru. We can drive a long way a few times a year to refill the cascade a lot easier/cheaper that feeding the compressor. Not as sexy/no bragging rights but works fine for us. There are lots of newish compressors around from the last 5yr of fire grants.

That was the other thought! I started quizzing on where the closest compressor was that could fill and it is about 30-45 minutes away. I think if we bump up the cascade to 4 bottle instead of 2 then they could still fill in house and on emergency scenes and in their down time go over to their neighbor who lets them use their compressor now, and just fill their cascade instead of their individual bottles. Definitely a bigger cost benefit there. Thanks for the input!