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  1. #1

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    Exclamation Top Mount Pump on a Telesquirt

    Looking for a little advice and/or guidance in the design of a new telesquirt my Fire District is currently looking to purchase. From my years of experience in both the career and volunteer fire service I have been assigned to companies that utilize a telesquirt and have found them to be a great asset. Our response area is surrounded by Department’s that have either a tower ladder or a straight stick in their arsenal to respond to our area through mutual aid agreements; that said a telesquirt would be a great option in various situations from making a quick rescue or a quick blitz attack in an elevated area.

    With that said I am concerned with one aspect of my companies view on the design of the telesquirt and that is designing it with a top mount pump. I think top mount pumps are a great feature on a pumper to give the operator a real 360 degree view of the fire scene but having it with an aerial device to me seems to be the wrong move.

    Our fleet is currently comprised of Pierce apparatus and it seems that we will remain with Pierce but have spoken to other manufactures all of which have never designed a truck of this nature with a top mount pump and an aerial device you would have with a telesquirt. Essentially, the driver/operator would have to raise the aerial device 20 degrees, extend the outriggers in order to just pump the apparatus even for just a car fire.

    Looking for assistance in determining if this is a good idea or is a bad idea, which is what my gut feeling tells me.

    Thanks for your input…


  2. #2
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    Default I have seen it...

    The neighboring town has a Mack MR/3D/ALF 1500/1500/3A 55' telesqurt. It is a beast of a truck. The top mount is an interesting feature but is designed so that the operator does not have to necessarily switch sides on the pump panel, though the aerial is mounted high enough to make it relativley easy. In fact, it even has 2 deck guns, one on each side. No real problems reported using it (though the chassis isn't well liked). Again, this comes from a top mount department so it may be a bit biased. An interesting looking rig, and idea, for sure.
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  3. #3
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    Default

    Top mount on a squirt
    "HEAD ACHE"

    this one was not a good idea, the squirt was square in the way.
    it has 4 rear facing seats in the back, with a sliding door in the middle.

    this truck was out of Canada.
    Thibault / Mack

    http://www.apparatusfloor.com/0002-07.jpg

  4. #4
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    Default wow...

    That's a big telesqurt. I guess having a smaller one in this situation would be better.

  5. #5
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    Default

    Weird wild stuff !!!!!!
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  6. #6
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    Default

    Rosenbauer's Tech Drive has what's basically a squirt with a top-mount pump. It's not the typical top-mount, as it doesn't go all the way across the truck, but it gets a guy off the ground where he can see. That particular truck uses electric valves and such to make the pump panel smaller.

  7. #7
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Default

    To steal a quote from Han Solo (and tweak it a little bit) "Kid, I've traveled from one side of this galaxy to the other, I've seen a lot of strange fire apparatus, but I've never seen anything to convince me that there is one all powerful squrt apparatus with a top-mount pump panel.....

    I have turned studying Fire Apparatus into somewhat of an obsession. It goes a little beyond a "casual interest" for me. I have seen literally thousands of pieces of apparatus, I have driven and operated many types of common pumpers, aerials, heavy rescues/haz-mats, and support pieces, both as a career and volunteer FF. I have never seen a squrt with a top-mount panel. Are the guys that propose this idea midgets? Or are your station bay doors 15feet high? You would have to do a hell of a lot of convincing to sell me on that idea, but then again, I'm not the one you would have to sell to.

    Just one question? Is this a plot to have a unique vehicle that no one else (or very few others) has?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  8. #8
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    Default

    I remember years ago seeing a Young Fire App. (showing my age!) rear mount tower ladder with a top mount pump panel. (Tower King maybe???) Very strange indeed. If I recall correctly though, there was a feature which allowed the pump operator to raise the boom with a handle on the bottom of the boom, right over the pump panel. The boom would raise only as long as you pulled on it, kinda like a dead-man control. Outriggers did not have to be set, and you could not rotate the boom from there.

  9. #9
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Default

    Looking at the picture posted on top, part of the benefit of having a "squirt" is lost due to the size of that monster. We like ours cuz it's small and easy to get in the tight places the TL won't fit.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #10
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    Well, I just need to throw my 2 cents in the for what it is worth department. That big truck at the top is not a "TRUE TELE-SQURT". It looks to be like a Boardman Readi-Tower. A 'TRUE TELE-SQURT" is a compact very manuvarable (Spelling???) piece, I know of only 1 or 2 TELE-SQURT's being built with a top mount pump panel, and as great as it sounds I do believe it is a big " head-ache" as ctxffman has stated.
    to answer your question, what you might want to look at is a "REAL TELE-SQURT" with the "Electronic Wireless Remote Control" that is available.

  11. #11
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    Default

    The thought of a top mount pump aerial ladder sounds absolutely ridiculous and that is my personal opinion. I personally can’t come up with any reason why someone would even entertain this thought. I totally understand the reasoning behind the top mount pump on an engine company to give the sense of security and safety of the operator. If one was to put a top mount pump on an aerial ladder, you have now just delayed your operation as an engine company. The use of a Quint, (aerial and pump) works great for small departments because they can have two uses at a scene with only one piece of apparatus on the road.
    Ok so you decide to go with a top mount pump and this is your main apparatus or 1st due apparatus and you respond to a car fire on a busy highway or roadway, but the down fall is now you must set up the aerial portion of the apparatus and raise the boom just to access the pump. The outcome that I see here is that you have now made an additional traffic hazard with your outriggers and you have delayed water from being put on the fire. If you also utilize this apparatus to carry your extrication equipment and follow proper training by stretching a hand line for precaution, you now once again have to raise the aerial ladder to charge one simple hand line. In this whole process of thought I believe we are getting away from the simplicity of a fire apparatus, this is a tool not a show piece. Another issue that must be thought about is, if the outriggers do not prove on a fire scene and the ladder can not be raised, now what do you do? The last thing that I also believe in is that fire apparatus today are being built bigger then your areas capability and this limits access for that apparatus. An aerial truck is already extremely long and if you ad a top mount pump to it you are adding a minimum of 2feet to the overall length.
    Again this is just my personal opinion after working with many different apparatus over the years.
    Last edited by TimGriffin; 03-20-2007 at 02:57 PM.

  12. #12

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    Default Just a real bad idea!

    One the greatest feature of a tele squirt is its maneuverability. Placing a top mount pump on an aerial device that should have a short wheel base is not practical. You would acctually be taking away from the vehicle, not adding to it. I think a big headache is exactly what it will be. I hope you guys invest in some advil. Pulling up to a dumpster fire and deploying the ladder just doesn't seem right. I can't wait to hear about the first guy to pull away with the ladder up. Is just a ploy to have the first aerial device with a top mount pump in the area or its just a bunch of people with a real bad idea? Everyone needs to sit down and do the pros and cons. The only pro i can come up with is the safety of the driver. Maybe we should put a big catwalk around the whole truck so the entire crew can stay off the roadway and be safe.

  13. #13
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    Default I sense negativity...

    Well, it is not a ploy to be unique, as the red one has been around since 1993. It's purpose is not to be a short unit. If they wanted a short unit they would not have a put a 1500 gallon tank on it. It's purpose is to be a heavy hitting attack engine that happens to have an aerial device on it.

    This department has all top mounts except for a front mount. They like them, this rig was delivered with a similar rescue pumper 1500/1500/30A on the same chassis by 3D at this time. It is a top mount, and their new pumper/tanker is a top mount. Obviously, they those.

    It does not carry extrication equipment, and its jack spread is about 2' a side. It runs primarily structure fires. I have not seen it in action, but I believe that since it only has two attack lines mounted midship on reels, one needs only to stand on one side of the panel.

    Make what you want of it, but this is what this department wanted in 1993 and I respect their idea.

  14. #14
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    Default No neg// Just stating facts

    Skipatrol nobody is bashing the dept you posted with the top mount, someone’s dept is looking at purchasing one now. With today’s safeties on aerial devises it will make it very difficult just to stretch a hand line. Theses are just a few issues that should be thought out. So do not think I am bashing your posted tele-tanker.

  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TimGriffin View Post
    Skipatrol nobody is bashing the dept you posted with the top mount, someone’s dept is looking at purchasing one now. With today’s safeties on aerial devises it will make it very difficult just to stretch a hand line. Theses are just a few issues that should be thought out. So do not think I am bashing your posted tele-tanker.
    Sorry...I said that more in jest than anything else. This has come up before both here and elsewhere and the opinions are pretty polarized, as they are now. I hope I don't seem to defensive. It's an idea good for some but not all, for sure.

    In regards to line stretching, I think the reel is desgined to help that.

  16. #16
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    Post Hometown

    Hello all. I'm from Sherborn, Massachusetts-so you see that big red Mack up there? That's us.

    I can't answer the "why?" question when, since I was only a toddler when it was bought. But I can tell you that of all the complaints i've heard about it, having the aerial lying across the pump panel isn't one of them. By far the most common complaint is that the aerial is just too short. 55' won't get you very far. Also, the chassis is a wee bit overloaded/underpowered. I've got a picture here to give you a sense of scale:
    http://www.sherbornfire.com/Photos/I...ill_5_full.jpg As you can see, the operator could almost walk underneath without ducking. The vehicle travel height is certainly nothing to write home about, but there are no bridges in town and the bay doors over at Station 2 are just that tall.

    Engine 1, as it is known, was part of a twin order with Engine 4, a rescue pumper with the same pump and tank on a shorter, single-axle wheelbase. Besides poor legroom in the rear jumpseats of the cab, I don't think anyone has ever complained about that truck. I think it's best described as "beefy"-considering that both attack lines are 2.5", it packs a punch.

    Maybe I should back up a second and describe Sherborn's method of fighting fires. There's no municipal water supply, you see, which means no pressurized hydrants. That's one reason why we want a 1500 tank on an aerial device. Engines 1 and 4, with their 1500 tanks, attack the fire initially (with Engine 3's 2500 gallons to back them up) while Engine 2, another Mack, lays out up to 5600 (yes, 5600) feet of LDH to reach one of the town's 40-odd "dry hydrants" which connect to ponds, rivers, streams, or large underground cisterns. There are no large commercial or industrial buildings in town, so a large aerial would be desirable only for horizontal, rather than vertical, reach.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    If you are buying it to be an aerial that has a pump, you should be fine. The aerial will go up "most" times, and it will be out of the way.

    If you are buying it as pumper that happens to have an aerial, it will be a PITA. There is too much work involved with raising the aerial even a little bit to make it practical.

    You could work around it, but I would rather go side or rear mount.



    Our squrt is side mount, with rear mount aerial controls. and so we have a remote control to operate the stick if it is a one-man operation (i.e. elevated master stream ops).

    I would prefer if the controls were closer so the pumper could do both by himself. If you could incorporate all in the transverse panel, it might make it more practical.

    It also seriously cuts into storage and water space too, and combined with the loss of space due to the pedastel and hydraulics, you may not have enough of either left without stretching the chassis for miles.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

  18. #18
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    Exclamation no raise

    I should clarify one more thing. On our top-mount telesquirt, raising the aerial is NOT necessary to run the pump panel. Important detail.

  19. #19
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post
    Our squrt is side mount, with rear mount aerial controls...I would prefer if the controls were closer so the pumper could do both by himself.
    We have a midmount "squirt" with the aerial controls on the side mount pump panel. Very easy for 1 operator to work.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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