View Poll Results: What is your opinion of Battenburg reflective blocking for fire apparatus?

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  • It looks great for vehicle conspicuity - the next apparatus safety trend in the U.S.!

    36 33.03%
  • Definitely effective - it will take some time to grow on me.

    27 24.77%
  • I like chevrons at the rear, but I don't go for this stuff on the sides.

    28 25.69%
  • Keep all this European stuff away from me.

    18 16.51%
  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resq14 View Post
    :
    My "chevron" ("vertical panel") opinion: who actually understands that they are designed to guide you one way or another based on the slant of the arrow? I doubt anyone does.
    I believe many of the studies indicate that the the pattern has a "subconscious affect".

    Anything that gets the POV drivers attention and forces them to notice the large obstruction we've parked there has got to help. It's unbelievable how many report they barely noticed the fire trucks and police cars after gawking at the actual incident!

  2. #27
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    I've got a pretty positive way to keep all but the stupidest or most persistant drivers out of your work zone.Park a D8 on a lowbed across the road.They're gonna stop one way or the other. Like NM says,you can't fix stupid.But you can get sued for trying. T.C.

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    First off, i don't find the sample above particulalry effective. It reminds me of the old WWII "Dazzle" camo used on ships, planes, and other large armored units. It was not intended to camoflauge, but rather break-up the shape of the object, and confuse recognition. Not really our intention. We tend to do this unintentionally as well by painting the cab one colour, roll-up doors another, pump panel possibly another, and then striping the hell out of them with confusing patterns.

    I think as far as non-Battenburg vehicles are concerned, one colour base, and minimal but consistent striping would be better than what we do.


    And as I read the Battenburg report, and looked at a few of the pics, it reminded me of the old 50's and sixties cruisers that were the traditional "Black & White". White cars with black doors, or vice-versa. Very visible in daylight, and recognisable. Old School, and not as "engineered", as Battenburg but it did the trick.

    So i guess we North Americans did it first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post



    First off, i don't find the sample above particulalry effective. It reminds me of the old WWII "Dazzle" camo used on ships, planes, and other large armored units. It was not intended to camoflauge, but rather break-up the shape of the object, and confuse recognition. Not really our intention. We tend to do this unintentionally as well by painting the cab one colour, roll-up doors another, pump panel possibly another, and then striping the hell out of them with confusing patterns.

    I think as far as non-Battenburg vehicles are concerned, one colour base, and minimal but consistent striping would be better than what we do.


    And as I read the Battenburg report, and looked at a few of the pics, it reminded me of the old 50's and sixties cruisers that were the traditional "Black & White". White cars with black doors, or vice-versa. Very visible in daylight, and recognisable. Old School, and not as "engineered", as Battenburg but it did the trick.

    So i guess we North Americans did it first.

    I had not thought of that. Very good point. Bear in mind that the wide blue stripe would be gone and replaced by battenburgs or chevrons. And it would be red not white. Mostly red I think. I was playing around with paint and thought it looked interesting. But I see what you're saying. If anything an all red truck looks better than one thats all full of zigs and zags.

  5. #30
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    I see this as an option for departments to "one-up" one another. Department X has these two colors and department Y has these colors. We can't use them. We have to be different and use our own colors. If this is coming down the pipe, maybe we need to say that EMS are these two colors, Police are these two colors and fire are these two colors. Otherwise you will be adding to the confussion on scene. Just think of a large incident with multiple departments on scene and all the different color Battenburg blocking. I don't think this should be used as a way to make a department vehicle unique, but rather recognizable as a certain type of emergency vehicle based on the Battenburg blocking.

  6. #31
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    Default Chevrons rule

    We have the first apparatus in our county with chevrons now. The Battenberg style might take a little to grow on me but I'd probably try them on a chief's gig or something small first
    Our small part of the world will have 3 Pierce rear mount pumpers by a month or 2

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post

    FWIW, the report in the above link is written by Stephen S. Solomon, O.D. The very person who brought us S____ Lime, aka Lime Green!
    Yup, and what color are most ANSI II/III vests?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I like green firetrucks...
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  8. #33
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    Default The obvious colors would be...

    Quote Originally Posted by meteoman View Post
    If this is coming down the pipe, maybe we need to say that EMS are these two colors, Police are these two colors and fire are these two colors
    EMS: Omaha orange and white

    Police: Black and white

    Fire: Red and... RED!

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  9. #34
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    I don't think its extra stripes or LED lights that draw people in, it is the intrest in whats going on. Driving past a car accident of fire, people aren't staring at the lights, they're staring at the accident or fire. I don't think more striping, or better striping will help.

    That being said, I think they're really ugly. Looks like a car in a nascar race. And I hate Nascar.
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  10. #35
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    I think they look hideous....... Don't care for the chevrons, either. IMHO, I think these goofy striping patterns can be more hypnotizing than flashing lights..... Look at many of the opyical illusions out on the internet. You stare at these patterns and everything starts going crazy. These striping patterns may have similar effects.......
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  11. #36
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    Default Apparatus Visibility Idea

    Calgary FD send an aerial to their high speed arteries in the city to act as a SSV (Scene Support Vehicle) and they have the large traffic boards on the rear of the Aerial mounted to the Turntable.

    Their latest Smeal has a TFB (Traffic Flow Board) made by Command Light that can rotate 45 deg each side of center so if the apparatus is angled to "block" the road the arrow board faces the traffic.

    Like anything in the fireservice not everyone will agree but it seems to be working for CFD..
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  12. #37
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    Off topic on the blattenburg but I wanted to shed some light on the Fort Worth trucks. They do use a Waterous S100 end suction pump with a ram's horn style suction manifold giving them intakes on both sides. As far as the large crosslay module goes, all the CAFS equipment is located under that module. With a few bolts, the whole thing lifts off for servicing or repair.It also contains a stokes storage cabinet. They are a different design that has evolved with each order they have placed. But then again, aren't they all.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleEVT View Post
    Off topic on the blattenburg but I wanted to shed some light on the Fort Worth trucks. They do use a Waterous S100 end suction pump with a ram's horn style suction manifold giving them intakes on both sides. As far as the large crosslay module goes, all the CAFS equipment is located under that module. With a few bolts, the whole thing lifts off for servicing or repair.It also contains a stokes storage cabinet. They are a different design that has evolved with each order they have placed. But then again, aren't they all.
    Thanks, I was sure that there had to be some sound reason and thoughts that we couldn't see from here!

  14. #39
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    cool, but i will have to learn to like it
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAFETEK View Post
    Calgary FD send an aerial to their high speed arteries in the city to act as a SSV (Scene Support Vehicle) and they have the large traffic boards on the rear of the Aerial mounted to the Turntable.
    My post up above has a CFD action shot -- the arrowboard on the snowy highway.
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  16. #41
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    Does anyone know where you can get the stripes in the bright yellow 3m does not show it.

  17. #42
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    We have a red/yellow chevron on our the back of our new (10/06) rescue units. They are the first two trucks in our department to have them. Personally, I hate the chevrons. After four or five months of seeing how well they work, I have noticed no change in the behavior of traffic while we are parked on scene compared to units that have no chevrons on them. Drivers do not slow down anymore when going around the scene. They still drive like s***heads.
    Our new trucks are loaded with lots of flashing LED's and such and I think we have too many lights operating onscene. I am going to forward some of the links in this thread to my Officers that discuss using less lighting onscene.
    We always position our apparatus defensively to protect the scene, place cones out to move the oncoming traffic around the rigs and have people on traffic control on each end of the scene to control traffic. All firefighters are ordered to wear lime-green vests at all times (that's a whole new thread!), except during fire incidents.
    One problem I have noticed when chevrons are applied, is the ability to see lettering such as "STAY BACK". The letters are usually placed over the chevrons and get lost in the pattern. Where lettering is applied there should be an area cut out so the lettering has a solid color behind them for easy reading.
    I would like to see a study done over the next couple of years to see if the chevrons or other markings make any significant improvement in our safety or whether they are just the latest gimmick to come along.

    my 2 cents worth
    Last edited by Lifeguard911; 03-29-2007 at 03:34 AM.

  18. #43
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    And that would be the key. We (the fireservice) are famous for just jumping into things or having NFPA make it a standard.
    Europe has has these markings for some time now, but one thing you havent seen is the lights increase like they have over here.
    A rig with tons of lights will blind drivers coming towards a scene and the stripes on our coats don't do anything.
    I think an interesting study would be just an arrow bar with the reflective stripes on the rear.
    I vote Battenburg, but I also thought that the slime green rigs were easier to see then red ones. (I didn't say I liked them better but they can be seen)

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    Well, for those of you who weren't aware, we finally chose to go ahead and install a Full Battenburg spec reflective package on our new rig. The job is completely out of 3M Diamond Grade reflective sheeting, and was completed this week by graphics professionals from SVI Graphics of Loveland, CO.

    We believe that we now have the first Full Battenburg 'Livery' package in the U.S. - thanks to SVI and a great deal of trust by members of the HFD.

    I'll provide better pictures over the weekend, but here's a couple of phone shots for now (I figured I had to bring this thread back for an update):
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  20. #45
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    Default wow...

    Definetley not for everyone, but it looks awesome to me. I like how the inside of the bumper is marked, so at MVAs when the tools are deployed, you can still see it. Is there any material on the front of the bumper when the lid is closed?

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    _______________
    Last edited by 5alarmcooker; 03-17-2008 at 07:41 PM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5alarmcooker View Post
    im sorry but that stuff has to stay in Europe, fire trucks are red and can have white over it with a stripe down the side. Now that you got a 2 year old answer this is my true feeling and logic emergency workers get killed by drivers cause lets face it 90 percent of the worlds drivers just s$ck. Nothing will change that, a billion lights or a chess board in funny colors on the side of apparatus will not change how people drive. I can deal with the chevrons on the back and like the new miami dade velocity on the bumper but to do the sides and the rest of the truck like that is purely rediculous. When that doesnt work they're going to tell us to put chevrons on the trucks and inside each chevron stripe there has to be LEDs that flash making the truck like one of those huge billboards you see in vegas cmon people get real.
    "Fire trucks are red and can have white over it with a stripe down the side". That really must make the truck do it's job. With that statement alone you are showing a bias towards the appearance of the apparatus and not increased visibility.

    There is no way you can prove that having increased reflective material does not improve visibility. Paint, by default, isn't a reflective material. With the additional striping and patterns there is more surface area of reflective material that would INCREASE visiblity.

    They never claimed that it would prevent drunk drivers or bad drivers from striking the apparatus, but it does give the "average Joe" something else to make it stand out from other vehicles.
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  23. #48
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    Talking

    And it looks good too. Let's not forget that part.

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    Alright, here's some real pictures.













    (That's better.)
    Last edited by BlitzfireSolo; 07-01-2007 at 04:06 PM.

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    Skipatrol - the entire bumper is black/gray reflective vinyl - you can see it a little in the photo below. I will take some night shots when I get a chance:












    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroechidna1 View Post
    And it looks good too. Let's not forget that part.
    You know, it's funny - when we first proposed this, some people flat out opposed it, but most reluctantly supported it in the name of firefighter safety. Now that it's done, it is really growing on people - most of the ones that hated it before have at least said that "it's not that bad" or that it's growing on them, and many others have started to really like it. There's a actually quite a bit of pride building around it now.

    A couple of notes on the design:

    - We were originally hoping to get a little bit more chevron coverage in the rear, but it's so busy with everything back there, it was not very possible. We are going to be adding some of the blue-border yellow stripes (like the ones on the front) to the rear, near the bottom.

    - All shelf and tray edges will be fitted with yellow diamond grade shortly.

    - Thanks again to the crew from SVI Graphics - they did this entire installation in two days. For those of you who have never seen it, 3M Diamond Grade sheeting is very difficult to work with - SVI specializes in working with the material, which is why we chose them for this project. SAFETEK - thanks for the recommendation!
    Last edited by BlitzfireSolo; 07-01-2007 at 04:29 PM.

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