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  1. #1
    Forum Member BuzzCut1's Avatar
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    Default iteresting Stats: % of Volunteers vs Career FF's in the USA

    Interesting stats

    http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/2004_fact_sheet.pdf

    of the estimated 1,108,250 firefighters in the US 816,600 or
    73% of US FF's are Volunteers

    of the 30310 Fire Departments in the USA
    21,900 are 100% volunteer
    4886 are moslty Volunteer
    1480 are mostly Career
    2044 are 100% Career


  2. #2
    Rabble rouser Kobersteen's Avatar
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    DELETED

    (My prior posting actually served very little purpose. It was not intended to be inflamatory, but after sleeping on it, I can see how it would. I do stand by the last part of my posting left in place below.)

    --- RIP ---

    Also, as one who works in a department that this study would undoubtedly call 'mostly career,' I can safely say that designation, at least in our case, is very misleading.
    Last edited by Kobersteen; 03-23-2007 at 06:18 AM. Reason: Ammended
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  3. #3
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    Default

    This should turn into an enlightening thread with well reasoned arguments from all sides. Think I just pull up a chair and see what happens. Personally, I'd take the career/volly debate over the global warming mess going on in another thread.

    Last edited by KenNFD1219; 03-22-2007 at 09:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenNFD1219 View Post
    Personally, I'd take the career/volly debate over the global warming mess going on in another thread.
    Maybe we should ask Al Gore to consult on the State of the Fire Service, too...
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzCut1 View Post
    Interesting stats

    http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/2004_fact_sheet.pdf

    of the estimated 1,108,250 firefighters in the US 816,600 or
    73% of US FF's are Volunteers

    of the 30310 Fire Departments in the USA
    21,900 are 100% volunteer
    4886 are moslty Volunteer
    1480 are mostly Career
    2044 are 100% Career
    Why did you start this? Is'nt there enough pi*sing matches on here?

  6. #6
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    Default

    who cares who is what as long as WE ALL GO HOME SAFE.

  7. #7
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Interesting to who?

    Most people only care (if even then) about their own fire department. I don't give a rats *** how many vols/paid/combo etc are in Utah, CA, TX, etc. It just doesn't matter.

    Worry about your own little part of the world.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Interesting to who?

    Most people only care (if even then) about their own fire department. I don't give a rats *** how many vols/paid/combo etc are in Utah, CA, TX, etc. It just doesn't matter.

    Worry about your own little part of the world.

    2nd. That ~ The numbers really do not matter as to who's who out there. Fact of the matter is we're all firefighters. - Some get paid and some don't. - Just like the military - Some Soldiers get paid while others {although compensated} really don't collect full time salaries.

    I've done both sides of the Fire Service {Career and Volunteer} I'm now an active Vollie and I work in Corporate Plant Protection which involves Fire / Rescue at an Oil Refinery. There is no diffrence except one makes it his / her fulltime career while another volunteers his / her time. Point I'm attempting to make here is pay-check or not Fires still burn the same, people still die the same, and hopefully we'll all go home......the same.

    I put my my pants on the same way everybody else does.....one leg at a time.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber WaterbryVTfire's Avatar
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    deleted by choice
    Last edited by WaterbryVTfire; 03-23-2007 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Just because
    "If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."
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  10. #10
    FossilMedic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobersteen View Post
    My prior posting actually served very little purpose. It was not intended to be inflamatory, but after sleeping on it, I can see how it would. I do stand by the last part of my posting left in place below.
    Joel, gotta watch that late cuppa coffee.

    There is another study floating around that points out that 85% of the citizens are protected by career or "mostly career" departments.

    MY perspective is this:

    Same job tasks
    DIFFERENT INTERNAL & EXTERNAL environments.
    Neither is better nor worse

    The fighting starts when we try to impose one set of environments on the other. It always degenerates into an "I am better than you" schoolyard fight.

    The local community, though their elected officials, determines the level of emergency service that is provided. Almost all of these career-volunteer arguments are focused internally and not looking at the level of service provided to the community.

    but what do I know .....
    Last edited by MikeWard; 03-23-2007 at 11:44 AM.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber LFD1MICHAEL's Avatar
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    Default Good Thing Its 12:09

    Quote Originally Posted by WaterbryVTfire View Post
    why do some fulltimers dislike vollies so much? I have talked to some that act like we (vollies) are second class citizens. I have met other fulltimers that are very welcoming. (Nashville and Miami guys come to mind.) I hear lots of excuses. But, it all seems to be "I'm better than you" type of thing. I have similar training standards that I need to keep (I have FF1 FF2 and Instructor 1). So my training shouldn't be an issue.

    Now....I also have met vollies that act the same way...

    I just was wondering..


    Good thing I waited 'till afternoon on a friday to open this thread. Entertainment makes the beer taste soooo much better.

  12. #12
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Interesting to who?
    Interesting to people who find meaningless raw statistics interesting, I suppose.

    I would make one major amendment to the way those general numbers are being interpreted, however. The assertion that 73% of America's firefighters are volunteer is unquestionably erroneous.

    It's probably accurate to say that at least 27% are career/full-time firefighters but that's about all you can assume. (That figure only covers full-time "public municipal fire departments" and omits state, federal, and private service firefighters.) The other 73% are a diverse -- and undifferentiated -- mix of full-time or near full-time firefighters who are attached to volunteer companies and still number themselves as "volunteers", unpaid volunteers, and a wide range of part-time, POC, and other "volunteer" hybrids in between.

    (What's ISO using as a conversion for rating volunteers vs full-time firefighters these days? It used to be 6:1.)
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Interesting to people who find meaningless raw statistics interesting, I suppose.

    I would make one major amendment to the way those general numbers are being interpreted, however. The assertion that 73% of America's firefighters are volunteer is unquestionably erroneous.

    It's probably accurate to say that at least 27% are career/full-time firefighters but that's about all you can assume. (That figure only covers full-time "public municipal fire departments" and omits state, federal, and private service firefighters.) The other 73% are a diverse -- and undifferentiated -- mix of full-time or near full-time firefighters who are attached to volunteer companies and still number themselves as "volunteers", unpaid volunteers, and a wide range of part-time, POC, and other "volunteer" hybrids in between.

    (What's ISO using as a conversion for rating volunteers vs full-time firefighters these days? It used to be 6:1.)
    On the other hand, the IAFF number about their members protecting 85% of the population is equally specious, for the same reasons. Do two or three IAFF members on a combo department mean that community is protected by the IAFF?

    And the ISO number is based on station staffing, not pay status.

  14. #14
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    And the ISO number is based on station staffing, not pay status.
    And I suppose you're suggesting that those two categories aren't highly correlated?

    So the ISO ratio is 6:1 for "staffed vs on-call". Now it's not a career vs volunteer issue. Better?

    What proportion of 24/7 staffed stations do you suppose are volunteer vs paid?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    And I suppose you're suggesting that those two categories aren't highly correlated?

    So the ISO ratio is 6:1 for "staffed vs on-call". Now it's not a career vs volunteer issue. Better?

    What proportion of 24/7 staffed stations do you suppose are volunteer vs paid?
    Are you suggesting it's one-for-one? Because it sure as hell ain't.

    Just for one notorious example, there's this vollie company in PG County, Maryland....

  16. #16
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    (What's ISO using as a conversion for rating volunteers vs full-time firefighters these days? It used to be 6:1.)
    Yes, still 6:1
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD6413 View Post
    I put my my pants on the same way everybody else does.....one leg at a time.
    I slip one foot into one boot, one foot into the other boot, and then pull both pant legs up at the same time... I guess I have no part in this conversation.

    Thank god!
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  18. #18
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    Are you suggesting it's one-for-one? Because it sure as hell ain't.
    Do you understand what "highly correlated" means?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Do you understand what "highly correlated" means?
    Yes, I do, but I was referring to this part of your post:

    What proportion of 24/7 staffed stations do you suppose are volunteer vs paid?
    Many volunteer and combo departments staff their stations.

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