Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: pumper response

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1

    Default pumper response

    We are a volunteer fire department. We respond with EMS's that are from either private or neighboring volunteer EMS's. We respond with a pumper as a "medical assist" call. We are not first respnders. Our new chief has issued new protocol that says we will respond a pumper on a medical assist call with one (1) firefighter on board if that is all that shows at the station. I have been trained and our last protocol was not to respond unless at least three firefighters were on board irregardless if a volunteer responds direct to the scene, which we are allowed to do if its closer. What do you think about that, please.

    Thanks for any responses
    JVFD1003


  2. #2
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Our trucks do not leave the station unless they have a full crew. However, if only one guy is left at the station and they need another ambulance, etc. at the scene, then that is the only way it will roll without a full crew.

    From 0800-1600 7 days, we have 2 guys on duty, so they roll the ambulance with 2 guys. But all other times of the day, a full crew if 4 people. Full crew is 4 people for all trucks, engines, truck, ambulances, Spec. Ops. (except our safety officer's vehicle which can roll with either 1 or 2.)
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,331

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JVFD1003 View Post
    We are a volunteer fire department. We respond with EMS's that are from either private or neighboring volunteer EMS's. We respond with a pumper as a "medical assist" call. We are not first respnders. Our new chief has issued new protocol that says we will respond a pumper on a medical assist call with one (1) firefighter on board if that is all that shows at the station. I have been trained and our last protocol was not to respond unless at least three firefighters were on board irregardless if a volunteer responds direct to the scene, which we are allowed to do if its closer. What do you think about that, please.

    Thanks for any responses
    JVFD1003
    Does any of your people have any medical training or even cpr? If you have no training what are you going to do once you get on scene?

  4. #4
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dday05 View Post
    Does any of your people have any medical training or even cpr? If you have no training what are you going to do once you get on scene?
    I think that it is for more of a manpower reason. (life assist, grabbing stuff from the ambulance, etc)


    I could be wrong however!
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,331

    Default

    I guess we'll find out huh?!

  6. #6
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dday05 View Post
    I guess we'll find out huh?!
    That we will.
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,063

    Default Get in or get out

    If they don't have any EMS training they shouldn't be tagging along. If they want to provide the service, then they've got to go all the way -- or at least CPR and first responder training.

    There are a lot of things that I would like to do. Fly a helicopter, argue a case in a court room, swim -- however I don't have the knowledge, skills, or abilities to do those things. Why do we let this go on in the fire service, I respect the guys that are just trying to do something nice for their community, but what are they really doing?

    Are they running hot to these medical calls so they can lift the cot? Do they have a plan to deal with exposures to blood born pathogens? Have they been trained in proper lifting and moving techniques?

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,331

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    If they don't have any EMS training they shouldn't be tagging along. If they want to provide the service, then they've got to go all the way -- or at least CPR and first responder training.

    There are a lot of things that I would like to do. Fly a helicopter, argue a case in a court room, swim -- however I don't have the knowledge, skills, or abilities to do those things. Why do we let this go on in the fire service, I respect the guys that are just trying to do something nice for their community, but what are they really doing?

    Are they running hot to these medical calls so they can lift the cot? Do they have a plan to deal with exposures to blood born pathogens? Have they been trained in proper lifting and moving techniques?
    I was thinking the same thing but I guess I wanted to wait and see what this person said before "we got to hard on them" I agree with your statements. I'd say they would be more of a liability then an asset on scene. And like you said do they even have CPR training?

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ashtabula, Ohio
    Posts
    8

    Question

    My question is why to a lot of fire departments put unnecessary wear & tear on an engine or a ladder truck for first responder duties? Why not use a chase car that's equipped with the necessary equipment?

    There are a few FDs in my area that run 4 guys. 2 on the EMS rig, 2 on the Engine. and BOTH go on ALL EMS calls. Then, if they need a 3rd guy on the EMS truck, they take the engine out of service, and they follow the EMS rig to the ER to pick up tiehr 2nd guy, instead of just returning to the station and waiting for the 3rd man to return.

    I mean, I understand that an engine or a ladder can carry more equipment. But, for first responder details, you should be able to put that equipment in a chase vehicle.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Westchester Co., NY USA
    Posts
    567

    Default

    Some are not in favor of splitting crews or have the personnel staffing to do so. I for one have never bought into the wear and tear argument and its been brought up about our system. We provide BLSFR with our engines and we do probably a 3:1 EMS to fire call ratio. If we did no EMS but did the same amount of call volume in the engine...would this still be called wear and tear? I've always looked at it as my customers tax dollars paid for that apparatus...and the BLSFR we provide is a very critical component of the system as often it is the first unit to arrive and sometimes exteneded depending on how the volunteer ambulances are being filled on any given day. I'd rather run that engine into the ground for those medical emergencies where they are needed, chest pain, unconscious, cardiac arrest, etc. I've always preached as I've come into the fire/ems service when it was established, that if you're going to do it you have to do it right and the leaders and managers have to ensure that it is and support it. And if at anytime any of them reduce the service and use the wear and tear debate and I am the ems coordinator for the department I will follow suit as I have before with the same comment: Awesome...so I don't have to go to an AFA if it comes in a 2nd or 3rd time, no parades ever for anything, no pump outs, wires down etc, because that is all wear and tear on it also. Now don't get me wrong...I want to do it all, I love being busy, but I don't cut a line across what I do and "wear and tear," it is what they are bought for and what is invested in them and I take every incident one at a time.

  11. #11
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FPO703 View Post
    My question is why to a lot of fire departments put unnecessary wear & tear on an engine or a ladder truck for first responder duties? Why not use a chase car that's equipped with the necessary equipment?

    There are a few FDs in my area that run 4 guys. 2 on the EMS rig, 2 on the Engine. and BOTH go on ALL EMS calls. Then, if they need a 3rd guy on the EMS truck, they take the engine out of service, and they follow the EMS rig to the ER to pick up tiehr 2nd guy, instead of just returning to the station and waiting for the 3rd man to return.

    I mean, I understand that an engine or a ladder can carry more equipment. But, for first responder details, you should be able to put that equipment in a chase vehicle.
    On weekdays from 8-4 when our day shift of 2 EMTs or Medics is on duty and a call goes out, the next 4 guys to the station take our ALS Engine to the scene unless told to cancel. This is because during the day you can never be sure of how many guys you will have, so if those guys take an ambulance out and a fire call comes in, you are in a bit of a bind.

    From 4pm-8am, the ambulance doesn't leave the station unless it has 4 guys on it (unless extreme circumstances exist). Then, if called for or if the call is dispatched as chest pain, arrest, or any other similar call, the second medic unit will respond.
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ashtabula, Ohio
    Posts
    8

    Default

    I was talking about if you have adequate staffing at the station and your EMS is provided by a neighboring FD or a private company.

    One department I know of has 6 people on duty, 3 for the engine, 3 for the ladder. Instead of taking the engine for 'medical assist or first responder', send guys from the ladder in a chase vehicle and leave the engine in service.

    Most times, the ladder goes on a reported fire call only to be cancelled. Or, if it turns out to be an actual fire call, they only use equipment from the ladder and not throw the ladder or anything. It would be like sending 2 engines.

    Plus, the EMS company that covers this city loves to call for FD assistance for almost every call. Everything from a scraped knee to a bloody nose also gets FD response. I can understand for cardiac or other ALS type calls. But, for BLS, I think the EMS company can handle the call unless they far out from the call requiring a first responder.

  13. #13
    Forum Member MetalMedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    The Home of Smucker's Jelly
    Posts
    1,266

    Default

    I think you need to think outside of the box on this. If it were a perfect world, that engine would leave with 4-5 people on board and all of them would be EMT-P level. I suspect you are a small department with a limited response at times where all that may be available to show up is one person. If the EMS unit responds from a distance away, it is possible that the engine could arrive faster than the squad. If this is a choking victim or a SCA victim, a couple minutes could be the difference between life and death. If you are operating on a tax levy, it is important that the voters in your district get to see something for their tax dollars. If they call for help and the fire department does not show up, it may be bad for the department at the next election.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Panorama, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    3,022

    Default

    Agreed.

    Ideally, a full crew is best, but when it is a life threatening call, speed counts. Unless you know your second or third man is only seconds away from the hall, roll the truck. They can follow.

    With Choking goals of <2-4 minutes, AED goals of <5-10, you don't want to waste time. One member can locate and get started using bystanders until the rest arrive.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1

    Smile pumper response

    Lots of good responses to my question. First we are funded by a village and contract with other townships nearby for their fire protection. We have a volunteer EMS 5 miles away and thre of course respond when paged. A full time EMS is anywhere form 5 to 15 miles away depending on where the call is. We have a man power shortage like everyone else during the day. We are all CPR and AED certified. We also have three EMT-B and 1 EMT-P. They also work at those jobs full time and us volunteer. We sometimes run on a choking or heart attack victim and sometimes lifting calls. The new chief is an EMT-B and wants us to respond per his EMS protocol. He threatened to fire some of us for not taking a pumper alone to a medical assist call. I guess I am writing this from a fire fighter angle. If I take my main line pumper alone to a medical assist call and I get a structure fire page what can I alone do, not much and then I look really bad at the fire when I am standing there pulling 5 " hose by myself or using the deck gun alone since that is by the panel. The chief said point blank that my page is what I am to respond to and to ignore a fire with a burning victim if I am going past that person and to respond to the medical assist. That is EMT protocol in our county. My response was that I prioritize and I will not go past a burning victim to go to a medical assist call just to lift and since I am now at a structure fire I should have a full complement on board which is 3 for our department prior to the chief taking charge. He has not rewritten his new protocols which he said he is going to do so we are respondig under existing protocol except when he is responding and then he lets us know what he wants. The call in question was a medical assist call for a fallen female that was at the far end of our area and also the EMS area, near a county line. I would have been 7 miles from the station so I would not have had a good response back to the station to pickup more men but that was not the chief's concern. His concern was that we will go on all medical assist calls and to contiinue to that call until relieved before responding to a structure fire in our district no matter how medically important the medical assit call is. My opinion is again to prioritize and use the radio and see if the squad is close and how important the medical call seems to be relative to the fire call. We can always call mutual aid but according to our mutual aid contract we have to be on scene before calling mutual aid for insurance coverage for our fire fighters. If we were taking our heavy rescue then I would not be as concerned but we are taking our main line pumper. I think we should put our first aid equipment in our heavy rescue, which is a retired rescue squad from the full time company in town, but the chief nixed that. Thanks for your responses.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Shawnee, Ohio
    Posts
    15

    Default Our Protocol

    We are a small department in Southeast Ohio. We do respond to all EMS calls but we are certified First Responders and have our own protocol. Our transport EMS is a volunteer squad that is failing so many times we have to wait on paid ems which is 20 to 45 minutes away.

    Our protocol is to respond in Fire department vehicles but we only stock EMS equipment on our rescue and brush truck. It did not make sense to us to tie up a pumper on an ems call, plus its more expensive.

    Depending on the call we are sometimes asked to assist the paid ems by driving their vehicle. So now if only one of us responds we usually grab our go bags and go in our POV to the scene. That may be an option in your case.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,331

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JVFD1003 View Post
    We have a man power shortage like everyone else during the day. We are all CPR and AED certified. We also have three EMT-B and 1 EMT-P. They also work at those jobs full time and us volunteer. We sometimes run on a choking or heart attack victim and sometimes lifting calls. The new chief is an EMT-B and wants us to respond per his EMS protocol.

    We can always call mutual aid but according to our mutual aid contract we have to be on scene before calling mutual aid for insurance coverage for our fire fighters. If we were taking our heavy rescue then I would not be as concerned but we are taking our main line pumper. I think we should put our first aid equipment in our heavy rescue, which is a retired rescue squad from the full time company in town, but the chief nixed that. Thanks for your responses.
    This is going to get very interesting

    If I read this right your fd has 3 EMT-B and 1 EMT-P and your chief wants you to run under his protocal? So lets say you're a ff with no ems training your chief wants you to respond even though you're a ff and function under HIS EMT-B guidelines? WTF? I'm confused maybe your dept needs to take a first responder course. I'd say what he's doing is wrong and putting his/her people in a very bad position.

    And whats this about mutual aid? You can't call for M/A unless you're on scene? If we get called for a structure we run auto aid with our neighboring depts. and have some help coming and the fd's we don't auto aid we can call for while enroute to the scene.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. First Response Coalition
    By NJFFSA16 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-20-2004, 12:45 AM
  2. S.F. urged to shut 3 fire stations
    By superchef in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 83
    Last Post: 05-07-2004, 03:36 PM
  3. FDNY Response Times
    By NJFFSA16 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-11-2004, 07:40 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-28-2004, 10:37 PM
  5. Clean Air Act 112(r) communication requirements
    By Alan Bernstein in forum Emergency Services Administration
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-30-1998, 10:07 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts