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  1. #81
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Personally, I don't really care who does it, it's not right for anyone to just destroy property that taxpayers are paying for. They should nail them all to the wall for vandalism, theft, and whatever else they're guilty of. I have serious doubts that that amount of equipment is standard use. If it is, why wasn't it reported damaged and replaced and documented?
    And you really don't know what happened. Do you. And I don't know why it wasn't reported. As I pointed out, this only seem to be a concern when Bush took office. As the report also stated there was vandalism by Clinton's predecessor as well. Yet I don't remember anyone getting their thongs in a twist then. Why is that? It always cracks me up how no one cares when it's pointed out the folks they support as just as guilty. Why weren't you clamoring to know why the Bush the smarter staff folks weren't being pursued to repair the damages and vandalism they left behind? So your point is really moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Aside from that matter, you have no idea what experience I have or haven't had and in what workplaces. It's dangerous to presume about someone you know nothing about.
    Not in your case. Or you would realize that all the things you mention happen every day in just about every enterprise of similar size across the country.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."


  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    And you really don't know what happened. Do you. And I don't know why it wasn't reported. As I pointed out, this only seem to be a concern when Bush took office. As the report also stated there was vandalism by Clinton's predecessor as well. Yet I don't remember anyone getting their thongs in a twist then. Why is that? It always cracks me up how no one cares when it's pointed out the folks they support as just as guilty. Why weren't you clamoring to know why the Bush the smarter staff folks weren't being pursued to repair the damages and vandalism they left behind? So your point is really moot.
    Once again, you presume. However, I was not "clamoring" to know about Bush Sr. and what went on there. I wasn't even out of high school when that change took place, so I had a lot of other things I was concerned about. My whole point was that you said it never happened with the Clintonites, that it was debunked. You posted a site that contradicted your own claim. Attacking me what Bush Sr. did is just a diversionary tactic.

    Going back and editing your post to have the link to the Slate when it was to truthorfiction.com really doesn't help the credibility.

    Not in your case. Or you would realize that all the things you mention happen every day in just about every enterprise of similar size across the country.
    Once again, you have no clue. Perhaps companies in the midwest hold more accountability to their employees than those in SC.

  3. #83
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Going back and editing your post to have the link to the Slate when it was to truthorfiction.com really doesn't help the credibility.
    This whole issue started when someone posted a comment about the Clinton's looting the White House. That wasn't true. More importantly the assessments done showed it to be just another urban legend by wacko right wingers.

    I found the Slate article via a Google search. If that doesn't work for you, too bad.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This whole issue started when someone posted a comment about the Clinton's looting the White House. That wasn't true. More importantly the assessments done showed it to be just another urban legend by wacko right wingers.

    I found the Slate article via a Google search. If that doesn't work for you, too bad.
    Actually, no the Slate (correct me if I'm wrong, but Slate is a liberal rag, is it not?) article doesn't do it for me. I'd rather go with an official report from a government office. I might also note that that article was released months after your Slate article was posted. So, where did the Slate get thier information? From what I read of the article and the posted articles, it's a bunch of hearsay, anyway.

    The original site you posted was one of those myth debunking sites, and they even said it happened (citing the GAO report). Just admit it, the Clinton administration did it. An official report even says they did it, part of it intentionally.

    I know it's hard to admit your liberal rags, rhetoric, and myths are wrong, but it's OK. Apparently, *gasp* it can work both ways on both parties.

  5. #85
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    The original site you posted was one of those myth debunking sites, and they even said it happened (citing the GAO report). Just admit it, the Clinton administration did it. An official report even says they did it, part of it intentionally.
    So which report or article states the Clinton's looted the White House furniture and silverware?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So which report or article states the Clinton's looted the White House furniture and silverware?
    OK, now you're going to play word games. Nothing states that that I've read so far. You stated "I know this is painful for you to discover the stories of the Clinton's trashing the White House are yet again another urban legend." You followed it up by posting a site that supposedly debunked the rumors that the white house was trashed. I called you on that. I do believe your Slate article and it's links rationalized the trashing of furniture (Gore stickers placed all over them) as being OK because Bush's staff did the same, rather than stating it didn't happen.

    The things cited as being in the GAO report also states it "included" the phones, keyboards, etc. If I get the time, I'll see if I can find the GAO report and read it for you and we'll find out what all they did. It's probably going to take a bit to read through the entire 220 pages of it (how much damage does it take to take up 220 pages, anyway?).

    Or just buck up, admit the Clintonites trashed the offices, you were misinformed that it had been debunked, and move on.

  7. #87
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    OK, now you're going to play word games. Nothing states that that I've read so far. You stated "I know this is painful for you to discover the stories of the Clinton's trashing the White House are yet again another urban legend." You followed it up by posting a site that supposedly debunked the rumors that the white house was trashed. I called you on that. I do believe your Slate article and it's links rationalized the trashing of furniture (Gore stickers placed all over them) as being OK because Bush's staff did the same, rather than stating it didn't happen.
    No word games at all. The original statement and urban legend was the Clinton's looted the White House furniture and silverware and caused significant damage. The GAO report stated the condition of the White House was consistent with long term occupancy. Bush himself is on record as stating the looting of the White House and Air Force One isn't true.

    Get over your desire to believe something that isn't true.

    But now that you know this occurs, I'm sure you'll be clamoring for a similar investigation and report in Jan. '09 when the Bush staff vacates the premises.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-20-2007 at 01:30 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  8. #88
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Okay everyone. I want a show of hands of who gives a good goddam about this.

    Rosie Leaving the View.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  9. #89
    MembersZone Subscriber pvfire424's Avatar
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    Can I show a negative hand?

    I only care about this, because I don't

    Clear as mud?


    Well, I 've already wasted enough electrons on her.


    Have a good one !!
    I.A.C.O.J. "The Cork"

  10. #90
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    The Fat Woman Has Sung!!


    Let the cow go along with Jane Fonda, the clintons and all the talking heads at CNN. All are dip sh*t's.

    Take the female speaker of the house too. Her agenda is terrible!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  11. #91
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    Question

    Ok... I'm not saying that I think it was a conspiracy, I'm simply saying it's possible. Everyone remembers the Watergate Scandals right? The government is capable of doing wrong. Now, I don't know whether this crap is true as I haven't done much research on it, but why not consider it feasable? Even under the perfect conditions jet fuel only burns at 1700 F. Steel doesn't melt until like 2300 F. And as in Watergate Scandals, where are the tapes from the planes?
    I should hope that the government wouldn't do something this disgusting, however, it could be possible...

    http://www.laughingpond.com/
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...77066688213413
    http://video.google.com/googleplayer...12003&hl=en-GB
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...93991751648213

    What do you think? I'm not looking to get flamed by this post. All I'm saying is that it is possible.

  12. #92
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho View Post
    Ok... I'm not saying that I think it was a conspiracy, I'm simply saying it's possible. Everyone remembers the Watergate Scandals right? The government is capable of doing wrong. Now, I don't know whether this crap is true as I haven't done much research on it, but why not consider it feasable? Even under the perfect conditions jet fuel only burns at 1700 F. Steel doesn't melt until like 2300 F. And as in Watergate Scandals, where are the tapes from the planes?
    I should hope that the government wouldn't do something this disgusting, however, it could be possible...

    http://www.laughingpond.com/
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...77066688213413
    http://video.google.com/googleplayer...12003&hl=en-GB
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...93991751648213

    What do you think? I'm not looking to get flamed by this post. All I'm saying is that it is possible.
    You have no clue, do you?

    From Popular Mechanics "Debunking the Myths of 9/11...
    FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength--and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

    "Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

    But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

    "The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."
    Now please.. go away...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  13. #93
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    Have you seen the videos?
    What about building 7 falling? What about the steel core? I can understand the floors falling through but what about the molten core? Look at some of the videos they have interesting comments on the view of it. It also seemed as if the buildings had perfect decent. In which they all fell on itself and not outward.
    Again, I'm not saying I think it was a conspiracy. I'm only saying that it is possible. I'm trying to have a discussion here, if nothing else to learn more. Please dont flame.
    Thanks

  14. #94
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    Again, from Popular Mechanics "debunking 9/11 myths"

    1. Initial reports from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) misunderstood the amount of damage the 47-floor WTC7 sustained from the debris of the falling North Tower—because in early photographs, WTC7 was obscured by smoke and debris.

    Towers 1 and 7 were approximately 300 ft. apart, and pictures like the ones here and here offer a clear visual of how small that distance is for structures that large. After further studies, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) told Popular Mechanics that debris from the 110-floor North Tower hit WTC7 with the force of a volcanic eruption. Nearly a quarter of the building was carved away over the bottom 10 stories on its south face, and significant damage was visible up to the 18th floor (see p. 24 of this report, and the screengrab below of an image of WTC7's damaged south face).



    The unusual design of WTC7 is also crucial to the discussion, in that key columns supported extreme loads—as much as 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor—as the building straddled an electrical substation. “What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors,” NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder told Popular Mechanics, “it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down.” The tower wasn’t hit by a plane, but it was severely wounded by the collapse of the North Tower. Which is when the fires started.

    2. The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center weren’t knocked down by planes—they both stood for more than a half-hour after the impacts. But the crashes destroyed support columns and ignited infernos that ultimately weakened—not melted—the steel structures until the towers could no longer support their own weights (NIST offers a primer here). Ms. O’Donnell fundamentally misstates the case with her use of the word “melted”: Evidence currently points to WTC7 also collapsing because fires weakened its ravaged steel structure.

    Tower 7 housed the city’s emergency command center, so there were a number of fuel tanks located throughout the building—including two 6000-gal. tanks in the basement that fed some generators in the building by pressurized lines. “Our working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time,” according to Sunder. Steel melts at about 2,750 degrees Fahrenheit—but it loses strength at temperatures as low as 400 F. When temperatures break 1000 degrees F, steel loses nearly 50 percent of its strength. It is unknown what temperatures were reached inside WTC7, but fires in the building raged for seven hours before the collapse.

    3. Demolition experts tell Popular Mechanics that wiring a building the size of WTC7 for clandestine demolition would present insurmountable logistical challenges. That issue aside, there’s a clear-cut engineering explanation for why the building fell the way it did. Trusses on the fifth and seventh floors of the building were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another; with the south face heavily damaged, the other columns were likely overtaxed. In engineering terms, the “progressive collapse” began on the eastern side, when weakened columns failed from the damage and fire. The entire building fell in on itself as the slumping east side dragged down the west side in a diagonal pattern. Still, damage to the Verizon Building (see p. 21 of this report), directly west of WTC7, and to Fiterman Hall (see here) directly north, show that it was hardly an orderly collapse.

    NIST is currently preparing its final report on the collapse of WTC7, which is expected to be released this spring. In order to address concerns of conspiracy theorists, the organization added “Hypothetical Blast Analysis” to its research, according to a December 2006 progress report. The report also points out that “NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition.”
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  15. #95
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    I made it easy for you, Panchito...

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...42.html?page=1

    The entire story....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Thanks. A friend sent me some crap about it possibly being a conspiracy. I've never known that to be true, but I was just interested on finding out more info on it. What do you think of the questions presented in the videos?

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho View Post
    Have you seen the videos?
    What about building 7 falling? What about the steel core? I can understand the floors falling through but what about the molten core? Look at some of the videos they have interesting comments on the view of it. It also seemed as if the buildings had perfect decent. In which they all fell on itself and not outward.
    Again, I'm not saying I think it was a conspiracy. I'm only saying that it is possible. I'm trying to have a discussion here, if nothing else to learn more. Please dont flame.
    Thanks
    If you don't want people to flame then I would stop the posts in this thread.

    Why don't we make Rosie the Director of the NFA. Obviously, she knows more about building construction or the reaction of the building components under fire conditions than building engineers or seasoned firefighters.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

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  18. #98

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    Default Wow.....

    I'm not a firefighter and I don't have much interest in becoming one. I am, however, interested in the 9/11 truths. I am a very strong Christian and I believe that truth is one of the most valuable things we hold.

    I don't understand why you won't even let a guy question. Why do you shut him out at the chance of wondering if it's possible? Why you tell him to stop posting about it when he has something new?

    If a family member of yours was murdered and someone was prosecuted for the crime; you later hear word of the possibility that the person that was prosecuted isn't the murderer.... That the murderer is still out there.... Wouldn't you want to find the truth? Wouldn't you want another investigation?

    The videos he posted don't do what you did (blindly follow) the people in these videos looked into their own research. They didn't just say "yes sir, yes ma'am", but they said "why? how? when? who?" they asked the questions... They wanted to know more.. and they ended up with more questions. Why? because there is truth being hidden.

    if you want me to list a few questions for you that I know you wouldn't be able to answer, just ask here for the questions, and I'll fill this thread up with them. Then you can spend years trying to figure out the answers with the crap given to you by the government or try to help get the truth from the those who have them.

  19. #99
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho View Post
    Thanks. A friend sent me some crap about it possibly being a conspiracy. I've never known that to be true, but I was just interested on finding out more info on it. What do you think of the questions presented in the videos?
    We have a local forum in my community and we
    have our own resident whack jobs posting conspiracy theories and videos.

    The thing about video is.. it can be edited to insert, delete or twist around anything to fit one's agenda.

    I diodn't even bother watching them.

    I know 2 FDNY brothers who were there on 9/11.

    Who are you going to believe... a Brother or Rosie "my IQ is barely above room temperature" O'Donnell?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  20. #100
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    Who are you going to believe... a Brother or Rosie "my IQ is barely above room temperature" O'Donnell?

    But I saw it on TV It must be real

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