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  1. #121
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    Will ya stop already. If you ain't figured it out already, Mr Canada is an instigator. And because he is, like every other instigator, we hammer at things he says trying to get him to make even more stupid and ludicrous statements. And it works. It becomes entertaining. And they catch on and go away. Congrats to all who stayed the course.

    I just got done reading all of the post. I see we have one or two riders on ndvfdff33's wagon. I feel the need to elaborate on some things, because some of you that weren't Marines, don't get it.

    First, LCPL Zabala will recieve a General Discharge from the military. A General Discharge means that while he served his country, he didn't honor his contract, but he didn't do anything against the law either. So he basically he gets a letter that says, "Go away, your services are no longer required", more or less. It is not for us to agree or disagree. Although, I also feel that if he's not going to honor his contract, he should get an Other than Honorable Discharge (OTH).

    The term of military service is "contractual". That's why we sign one every four years if we're going to stay. In the contract there is a line that every enlistee has to initial. It states, "I understand that the Armed Forces of the United states is not just a job opportunity". Maybe it has changed, I haven't seen one since my last one was signed in 1997. So the young LCpl signed is name and agreed to abide by the contract he made with the US Government. Therefore, the idea that Mr Zabala should get an OTH, should be justified.
    Before the oath of enlistment, inductees are given one last chance to reconsider before taking the oath of office. Zabala chose poorly, I guess.

    When recruits come to the Recruit Depot, they are entering into a completly different and demanding world. The Drill Instructors have 18 weeks (?) to turn you into a basically trained, physically fit, well disciplined Marine. The same goes for the Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard. I personally hated to yell and scream. It was physically demanding for me, but I have two weeks to determine whether or not a recruit can adapt to the military enviornment. Recruits must be able to obey orders and perform task under stressful situations as an individual and as a team. And there are 60 to 80 recruits in a training platoon. How many times do ya think I can repeat the instructions. We'll never get it done at that rate. So we yell and scream. No matter what kind of up-bringing you had, you're never going to possess the discipline the military wants you to have until they say you have met all of the requirements to becoming a US Marine or Soldier. Because it is the Marine and the Soldier that engage in combat on the ground. This takes courage, committment, and extrordinary discipline to do if you want to stay alive. Kinda like fightin' fires, huh? But Drill Instructors don't scream 24/7. It may seem like it to some, probably those who ain't catching on, but we'd never get anything accomplished yelling and screaming 24/7.

    Enough said about the Marine who doesn't want to go to war. I say, it's his choice to make. Sometimes it takes more courage to quit something you don't believe in. What will you do if Zabala decides to become a firefighter and ends up in your station house? Are you going to lower your standards to bash him for his decision or are you going to put him to the task and see what he's really made of? What if he proves himself to be a firefighter etc... now what. Ethics are a bitch, aren't they.

    Semper Fi my brothers.

    You too, ndvfdff33, even though you're lost like a ball in tall weeds.


  2. #122
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAXFF7086 View Post
    Enough said about the Marine who doesn't want to go to war. I say, it's his choice to make. Sometimes it takes more courage to quit something you don't believe in. What will you do if Zabala decides to become a firefighter and ends up in your station house? Are you going to lower your standards to bash him for his decision or are you going to put him to the task and see what he's really made of? What if he proves himself to be a firefighter etc... now what. Ethics are a bitch, aren't they.
    Bravo, well said!
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  3. #123
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Which is why USMC is properly capitalized and marines is not. The former is a proper name, the latter is a general category. If you want to go on capitalizing it as an idiosyncracy, that's fine.

    A major component in most military basic training is essentially brainwashing. The techniques are old, tried, and true. The psychology is simple and effective. Remove individuality; break any resistance to absolute authority; gain mental and emotional dominance; then re-educate to suit. Nobody is questioning whether it works: the same techniques are used around the world by militaries and other cults alike.

    If anyone here were to question how ethical that is, they wouldn't be the first.
    However, he was speaking of Marines as in those who are or have been United States Marines, not anything more general than that. It was incorrect, and after being corrected for him to continue doing it was disrespectful and personally insulting. To continue doing it after being told such, was plain stupid, moronic, and selfish.


    I was not brainwashed. I was trained to do a job. Very effectively. And for a reason. An individual acting for only themselves on a battlefield WILL GET OTHERS KILLED.

    I believe it was called "Instant, willingness, obedience to orders." There is not time to explain ***** when mortars are falling, you are being flanked, and your FPL was infiltrated.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlieCan View Post
    Then again, Im not a marine, so...
    Marine
    Make that THREE times!!

  5. #125
    Forum Member OlieCan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    However, he was speaking of Marines as in those who are or have been United States Marines, not anything more general than that. It was incorrect, and after being corrected for him to continue doing it was disrespectful and personally insulting. To continue doing it after being told such, was plain stupid, moronic, and selfish.

    To be fair, I usually don't capitalize anything except things at the beginning of a sentence. Sometimes my typing is totally random. The first few times I didn't capitalize it, were just out of habit of not capitalizing things, the several after, were just to **** people off because they were taking personal attacks at me when I was simply stating my opinion. If it really bothers people that its not capitalized, you need to loosen up, you must be high strung. respect or not, that shouldn't bother you very much.


    This arguement seems pretty much over anyway, so... yeah.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlieCan View Post
    To be fair, I usually don't capitalize anything except things at the beginning of a sentence. Sometimes my typing is totally random. The first few times I didn't capitalize it, were just out of habit of not capitalizing things, the several after, were just to **** people off because they were taking personal attacks at me when I was simply stating my opinion. If it really bothers people that its not capitalized, you need to loosen up, you must be high strung. respect or not, that shouldn't bother you very much.


    This arguement seems pretty much over anyway, so... yeah.


    You remind me of the teacher off of Charlie Brown.

  7. #127
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post

    I was not brainwashed. I was trained to do a job. Very effectively. And for a reason. An individual acting for only themselves on a battlefield WILL GET OTHERS KILLED.
    "To seek out close with and engage the enemy by fire and manuver, and to repel the enemies assualts by fire and close combat"

    My mission....plain and simple. When it hits the fan, I do not want a "free thinker" who thinks he has a right to voice his opinion. I want a Marine that is going to do what he was trained to do and what I tell him, otherwise...I just will end up with dead Marines.

    If discipline and self discipline is brainwashing...then pase me a bar of soap.
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  8. #128
    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    My mission....plain and simple. When it hits the fan, I do not want a "free thinker" who thinks he has a right to voice his opinion. I want a Marine that is going to do what he was trained to do and what I tell him, otherwise...I just will end up with dead Marines.

    Marines live and die.... but the core lives on. that means YOU live on.


    Your soul may belong to Jesus but your ***** belongs to me

  9. #129
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlieCan View Post
    To be fair, I usually don't capitalize anything except things at the beginning of a sentence. Sometimes my typing is totally random.
    Fair enough. But you never mentioned that when you were corrected numerous times, you chose to be a child and..........

    Quote Originally Posted by OlieCan View Post
    The first few times I didn't capitalize it, were just out of habit of not capitalizing things, the several after, were just to **** people off because they were taking personal attacks at me when I was simply stating my opinion.
    I love it when people use this argument - I don't like it when you do it, so I am going to do it back. Oh so mature. It does everything to bring you above the fray. It is great to elevate you above the riff raff you are trying to show yourself to be better than.

    [QUOTE=OlieCan;794990]If it really bothers people that its not capitalized, you need to loosen up, you must be high strung. respect or not, that shouldn't bother you very much.

    I am high strung. But to intentionally insult and disrespect people because you do not like them or like what they say to you is pretty ridiculous. And you expect to be respected yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlieCan View Post
    This arguement seems pretty much over anyway, so... yeah.
    yeah!
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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  10. #130
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    [QUOTE=DaSharkie;795103]Fair enough. But you never mentioned that when you were corrected numerous times, you chose to be a child and..........



    I love it when people use this argument - I don't like it when you do it, so I am going to do it back. Oh so mature. It does everything to bring you above the fray. It is great to elevate you above the riff raff you are trying to show yourself to be better than.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlieCan View Post
    If it really bothers people that its not capitalized, you need to loosen up, you must be high strung. respect or not, that shouldn't bother you very much.

    I am high strung. But to intentionally insult and disrespect people because you do not like them or like what they say to you is pretty ridiculous. And you expect to be respected yourself?



    yeah!
    Don't forget that he intentionally insulted and disrespected people who, it has been proven, have way more testicles and way more courage than he will ever have.

  11. #131
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Which is why USMC is properly capitalized and marines is not. The former is a proper name, the latter is a general category. If you want to go on capitalizing it as an idiosyncracy, that's fine.

    A major component in most military basic training is essentially brainwashing. The techniques are old, tried, and true. The psychology is simple and effective. Remove individuality; break any resistance to absolute authority; gain mental and emotional dominance; then re-educate to suit. Nobody is questioning whether it works: the same techniques are used around the world by militaries and other cults alike.

    If anyone here were to question how ethical that is, they wouldn't be the first.
    Actually "Marine" is a title and thus is capitalized. It is a proper name for a member of the organization as well. It is capitalized when ever you are speaking of members of any specific Marine groups. Now if you were taliking about a group who were members of both the Royal Marines and the United States Marine Corps, then you would use "marines" as you would use "sailors" or "soldiers".

    Boot Camp is not brainwashing. You are taking people with the same general values, patriotism, love of country, and service, and building them into a part of a team. Yes it means teaching them to put the group above themselves, but it is in order to achieve a goal that they already had. True brainwashing removes ones core values and replaces them with another, such as the way the communists had their "reeducation camps". To say boot camp is brainwashing you would have to say the same for Fire and Police Academies and even many university programs such as ones in engineering, philosophy, law and medicine where they use the first year's studies to weed out the weak and build up the confidence of the rest.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  12. #132
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    Seems like disrespect for the Marines goes deeper than I thought. Just remember, you guys. No talking to anybody while you are in uniform or it is recruiting.

    Two Marines say Target store booted them for recruiting
    By JACK DORSEY, The Virginian-Pilot
    © April 7, 2007
    Last updated: 10:00 PM


    CHESAPEAKE - Two Marines in their dress uniforms - the ones with white hats, khaki shirts and blue trousers with red stripe - say they were accused of recruiting at a Target department store here and told to leave.

    "We weren't recruiting," according to Cpl. Carlos Rodriguez, 22, who said he returned in October from his second combat tour in Iraq. "I just popped in to say hi to a guy I went to high school with. He works there."

    But an assistant manager who saw Rodriguez and the other Marine apparently thought otherwise and showed them the door, according to both servicemen.

    Manager Brian Sherman, who was not in the Chesapeake South store Monday when the alleged incident happened, denied Friday that the Marines were ordered out. But he said he was told they were talking to employees.

    "They were not asked to leave, in fact they walked around the store and continued to shop," Sherman said.

    Target has a strict no-solicitation policy, he said.

    Rodriguez said he and the other Marine were in the Target about 10 a.m. Monday, when they had some slack time from their duties. The second Marine, a private, asked not to be identified because he's new to the Corps, but he affirmed Rodriguez's account.

    Rodriguez, who is getting out of the Marines in June, and the private, who just completed boot camp training at Parris Island, S.C., are both on temporary duty back in their hometown of Chesapeake.

    While they are assigned to a local recruiting office, they are not recruiters and work only as assistants, Rodriguez said.

    He said he was talking to his high school friend in Target "briefly and then we were walking toward the CDs when this guy comes out of nowhere. He was the shift manager, or something, and the first thing he started saying was, 'You guys are recruiters, right?' "

    Sherman declined to identify the assistant manager because he had not talked to him yet.

    The assistant manager said he couldn't have the Marines in the store soliciting workers for the military while they were on the company's clock, Rodriguez said.

    "I didn't want to make a scene," Rodriguez said. "We were representing Marines anyway just by wearing the uniform, so I kept my mouth shut."

    Then, Rodriguez said, "this retired Navy SEAL came up behind us and he said, 'You forget what... country this is,' and he goes off on (the assistant manager) saying, 'You have no right to throw them out of Target just because they are talking to one of your employees.' "

    "He got everything out in the open that I was thinking, so I kind of left with a grin," Rodriguez said.

    George Rodriguez, the corporal's father and a former Navy officer, said in an interview that he told his son, " Now you know how I felt the first time I came back from Vietnam because it was like that all over the country."

    A Marine Corps official based in Norfolk, Col. Jenny Holbert, said Friday that while the uniform the Marines were wearing is typical of those worn by recruiters, Rodriquez and the private were not recruiters.

    "Were they recruiting? That's inconsequential really," Holbert said.

    Sherman said no one had filed a formal complaint.

    He said he believed the incident has been blown out of proportion.

    "We have a no-solicitation policy," Sherman said. "It has been in the news before. It's the same thing we went through with the Salvation Army and we give a lot of money to them. But we don't necessarily allow them to solicit on our property."

    Target banned the Salvation Army's Christmas-time kettles from all its stores in 2004.

    Sherman provided Target corporate statements that say since 2002, it has been "the victim of a misleading e-mail campaign, which grossly misrepresents our support of veterans and our soldiers."

    "Target supports many charitable causes, including veterans' organizations," according to a statement. "For years we have donated funds and volunteer hours to local and national veteran and military organizations around the country."

  13. #133
    Forum Member BFDNJFF's Avatar
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    I guess I will no longer EVER shop at Target
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  14. #134
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    So there was an honest question asked and a retired Navy seal jumps in and causes a problem....and you have something wrong with Target?


    then again, it's a news story account of what really happened.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  15. #135
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    Wow thats very low on the part of the store manager. If only it didn't look so bad too give someone a shot in the jaw while in uniform, because thats what he deserves
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  16. #136
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    "He got everything out in the open that I was thinking, so I kind of left with a grin," Rodriguez said.
    I hear that one!
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    I will stand up and salute any member of our armed forces. I have a niece that is a Marine stationed on the east coast. She knows that she may have to go to combat if she is ordered to. She will get a good education in the process, But she knew what she was getting into when she went in. Her father has been in the US Army for 20 years and has served in Iraq. I have a son that left last friday for Iraq (tank commander). I pray for them all.

    And she did say something about the D.I.'s yelling to get thier point across in training.

    T.J.

  18. #138
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    Isn't Target owned by the french? (and yes I know I didn't capitalize it, they don't deserve it) The french are bunch of kitty kitty kitties. I think you know what I'm saying.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffrydausmc View Post
    Isn't Target owned by the french? (and yes I know I didn't capitalize it, they don't deserve it) The french are bunch of kitty kitty kitties. I think you know what I'm saying.
    I'll give aTarget a break on this one, this is the account of the actions of a single store manager. Target is a VERY American company, HQ'ed in Minneapolis, Minnesota it is part of the Dayton-Hudson Company who also own Dayton's Dept. stores in the midwest.

    And I actually trained with some French Marines for two months in the south Pacific, they were some pretty tough and squared away guys. Don't judge all of their people on the actions of their current and recent politicians. If it was not for the French Resistance in WWII we would have never retaken Europe, and if it was not for their help in 1776 we would all be speaking English here........oh wait......well we would be having tea and krumpets at 2pm everyday and not get to vote, and our taxes would be very high as well.
    Last edited by DennisTheMenace; 04-09-2007 at 04:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    I'll give aTarget a break on this one, this is the account of the actions of a single store manager. Target is a VERY American company, HQ'ed in Minneapolis, Minnesota it is part of the Dayton-Hudson Company who also own Dayton's Dept. stores in the midwest.

    And I actually trained with some French Marines for two months in the south Pacific, they were some pretty tough and squared away guys. Don't judge all of their people on the actions of their current and recent politicians. If it was not for the French Resistance in WWII we would have never retaken Europe, and if it was not for their help in 1776 we would all be speaking English here........oh wait......well we would be having tea and krumpets at 2pm everyday and not get to vote, and our taxes would be very high as well.
    This is a good point. When I posted this, it was not an indictment of Target. It was directed at the actions of the store manager.

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