1. #1
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    Lightbulb Steelton PA Aerial Moving

    Gents, did you all look at this?

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=46&id=54255

    There is something that doesn't happen every day.

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    Yup, and still trying to imagine it.

    Putting truck in drive, disengages pump (assuming it has it's own), so now they have no water, somehow manages to move the truck with the stabilizers down (guess they were not doing anything) and drag the charged supply line with it.

    And that's easier than rotating the aerial to move the bucket out of harm's way?

    It worked for them and that is good. Just seems kind of unreasonable to me, but I was not there.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bones, I wondered about rotating the bucket and the pump too. As for the jacks, the one article said he raised the jacks a couple inches prior to moving the rig........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Any way you look at it he was thinking on his feet and not staring at a PAR board! I believe the article said the ladder was in jeopardy of burning. I'll take a Chief that moves his bugles over one that sits on them anytime. Good job Chief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Yup, and still trying to imagine it.

    Putting truck in drive, disengages pump (assuming it has it's own), so now they have no water, somehow manages to move the truck with the stabilizers down (guess they were not doing anything) and drag the charged supply line with it.

    And that's easier than rotating the aerial to move the bucket out of harm's way?

    It worked for them and that is good. Just seems kind of unreasonable to me, but I was not there.
    Watch the video. Moving the bucket wasn't going to cut it.

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    The raw video off the news site shows someone at least taking the pressure off the jacks. My question is why did they stop 10' out of the bed? They could have completed bedding it and get out of dodge.

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    It would be interesting to see the layout of the property. With the wind the way it was, etc....looks like the area that they backed the truck up to may have been the best place to start with! But....hindsight is always 20/20! But......it was a risky move that ended up working out in the end!

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    Default Lots of factors

    That is a good point "quint1". As a training engineer of course, moving an unbedded ladder truck is the # 1 sin and I have always taught against it. But if you watch the entire video, consider wind direction, factors about proper midmount placement, too close to the building, etc. It all looked wrong from the beginning to me. BUT then again maybe when they got there they thought they could get close in and drop the hammer on the blaze before it took off like it did. It's hard to know with out being there.

    In any respect when this fine department critiques the situation later themselves, I think they will come to the conclusion that working off the rear whenever possible and keeping the cab out of the heat zone or possible heat zone is always the way to go. And always remember gents, where the cab is on a midmount - that is where the turntable is as well.

    It's always easy to be a Monday morning quarter back (not directed at "quint 1" or anyone here). quint1 does have a good point.

    I once gave an aerial training class to some guys in ohio who, after an entire day of goofing off and not listening, were operated a 75' stick in shortset with almost no pressure on the stabilizers, bouncing & beating the aerial at low elevations about 2 feet over some parked vehicles - jacks hopping and all. I told them several times to bed it and go to full spread and weight the jacks. They wouldn't listen so I waited until they were fully retracted & centered, about 6 degrees elevation and shut them down, overrode one stabilizer to get full spread and some weight in the system.

    I saved them from possibly damaging the truck & vehicles around them,etc, as they were smokin and jokin on the turntable. I then got accused of "cutting corners" by a no integrity "dealer" with an axe to grind who tried to make a federal case of it to the manufacturer and the customer.

    In this scenario "Their chief's decision to move the truck has been lauded." And I was a "corner cutter". Funny how that works isn't it?

    For the record, I don't think this Chief endangered his people at all and he was in no danger of tipping in this specific case. I think he decided he had to quickly compensate for bad placement of the truck at a blaze that took off allot quicker than they thought it would. The truck did look like it was in danger of catching soon. But I have to disagree with "emt161"; I don't think the fine gents in the bucket were in a place they couldn't move the ladder to get out of the heat. They were pretty much out of it off the back of the truck and had the entire officers side of the truck on which they could have rotated the ladder - But this would not have saved the truck. I think that is why the Chief did what he did - by keeping the truck from catching he prevented an entirely worse scenario.

    One thing is sure, this chief knew his machine inside out & he knew what he could safely get away with (physics) to save his truck and thus prevent a worse situation.........I would encourage NO ONE to do this but I always respected a "working Chief" - Good work Chief

    Call it like I see it gents - always have. TL

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    If you notice, when they drop the bucket to hit the fire from the underside of the roof, it appears that at least the rig was out of the collapse zone. Yes they got caught in what IMO was a firestorm, but I gotta agree with Chiefy, good heads up move after an error in judging fire potential (that probably almost anyone posting here could make). I could see the quicksand theory getting involved in this fire if that boss didn't make the call to move the rig.

    Why not take the time to drop the stick. As was mentioned in the firefighters forum, another 10 seconds to drop the ladder, then another 10 for the guys to climb out of the bucket, another 10 to get the jacks/stabilizers up completely, 10-20 seconds to remove the lines. After this much time, the bleepin' cab would be too hot to get near, let alone enter.
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    [QUOTE][In any respect when this fine department critiques the situation later themselves, I think they will come to the conclusion that working off the rear whenever possible and keeping the cab out of the heat zone or possible heat zone is always the way to go. And always remember gents, where the cab is on a midmount - that is where the turntable is as well.
    /QUOTE]

    Why would operate a MM off the rear? Takes away all of your below grade ops and in most cases causes a positioning nightmare.

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    [QUOTE=Halligan84;797366]
    Why would operate a MM off the rear? Takes away all of your below grade ops and in most cases causes a positioning nightmare.
    You answered your own question with the very texts you quoted: "working off the rear whenever POSSIBLE" & in this situation they had no need for operations anywhere near below grade, therefore it was possible. To clear the building and put the water down on it they didn't even need to get below 20 degrees elevation and correct me if I am wrong; a MM has a useful operation range down to about 4 degrees off the entire rear 120 degrees of the rotational circle.

    "keeping the cab out of the heat zone or possible heat zone". It seems to me there was one heck of a heat zone here. And again, where the cab is on a MM, that is where turntable operations take place. Why put either on anywhere near the fire when you could work it off the back during the higher angle flowing in this situation? This goes for MM or RM.

    Maybe you are misunderstanding me - when I say this particular situation should have been worked off the rear, I simply meant that truck should have been flipped 180 degrees - facing the other way and a little further from the building. Keeping your back to the heat has major advantages - MM or RM.

    This MM PLT had plenty of reach to hit the fire while working somewhere off the rear 180 degrees, operation below 4 degrees elevation was definitely not required in this one and if they wanted to drop the platform on the ground (for instance to remove an injured Firefighter from the bucket), they had the whole other side of the truck.

    MM's are designed to work off the side -we all know that, but EVERY truck is more stable with ladder working parallel to the chassis than perpendicular - this is just a secondary benefit and wasn't even need in this situation, but it is fact.

    And MOST IMPORTANTLY if you watch the video again you will see that the majority of the fire they were trying to get at - they couldn't get at because of the truck's position. Because the cab was in the way.............. and they couldn't rotate forward much further and stayed at a decent angle of elevation to target the stream.

    So because of the position of the truck in this scene - the cab (and turntable) were in the heat zone & they couldn't hit the majority of the fire because they would have had to raise ALOT more to clear the cab, which again was in the way. Now that was a "positioning nightmare".

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