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    Lightbulb WATER RESCUES- not a place for bunker gear

    Just wanted to get the word out to any who cares. Have you ever been on a water rescue call where members show up in turn out gear? I think most of us have. After a recent class i attended we need to make it clear that no one on this type of rescue should be in any type of turn out gear! The instructor conducted a demonstration on a dummy, 175 lbs plus turn out gear. dummy also had a basic life vest on. boots filled up and dummy sank to the bottom of a 12 foot pool in under 10 seconds. pass the word. You wouldn't wear bunker gear into the hot zone of a hazmat spill, don't wear it to a water rescue!

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    You are correct bunker gear should not be used at a water rescue. However if you should happen to fall into water the bunker gear will keep you afloat for a short amount of time. Training will show how a person with full bunker gear on floats longer than the ten seconds of a dummy drowning. I have had this training and know many others who have had it also. The bunker gear will keep you afloat long enough to get near the edge of a pool or out of the water.

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    This is an example of a situation where it is better for firefighters to do noting in terms of an "in-water" rescue attempt than attemp an in water effort and be killed. If you do not have the equipment to perform an in-water rescue .... do not attempt an in water rescue.

    How many times do you read about well-meaning career and volunteer firefighters attempting to do something they are not trained or equipped to do. If the response area has a lake, pond or river that it commonly used for recreation and a water rescue situation get the training and equipment to perform the operation. Don't wing it. Don't jerry rig some half-assed "rescue equipment" because all that will happen is the rescuers will become the victims.

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    Positive preperation prevents **** poor performance.

    if you have water in your fire district it didn't just appear by a miracle. Prepare for it.

    As for turn out gear in water...not something I am ever going to do.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-17-2007 at 01:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    As for turn out gear in water...not something I am ever going to do.

    FyredUp
    Intentionally.


    Basements, wells, elevator shafts, etc. can all happen to the best of us.

    When I was in the military, we used to have to perform a swim test in full combat fatigues and boots. Not because we ever planned to go swimming that way, but aircraft, landing craft, and personnel transports have been known to find water at the most inopportune time.

    Your turnout gear will significantly restrict your mobility, and it will add a small amount of weight. The difference between a dummy and a person, is the person is almost always more bouyant, and has the ability to tread or swim.

    It is certainly not a good practice to use turnout gear for water work, especially in moving water, but it will not "Drag you down" like some will say. Many responders after Katrina used turnout pants to protect themselves from the debris and garbage under the water. It was a better risk than the risk of serious infection after an accidental cut or gash.


    Uneccessary fears cause uneccessary apprehension. We should have an understanding of the limitations of our gear, but certainly not fear it.


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    mcaldwell hit it on the head....intentionally. We don't wear turn out gear for a water rescue either, but we do wear it for a boat fire. And there is great possibility that falling/slipping from the boat into the water will happen. Because of that risk, we have trained (in a pool) for falling in water with gear and SCBA on.

    We have kept ourselves above water, with very little effort, for much more than 10 seconds.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I'm with Bones on this one.
    A couple years ago we had a guy from Marine firefighting school http://www.marinefirefighting.com show us pictures of a guy floating in full turnouts.Yes,he was in a pool and I've worked too many years on the river (Mississippi,Ohio and Tennessee) to think that's something you'd want to do regularly.
    I know guys wearing the proper Type V work vest or float coats(made by Stearns for cold weather flotation that looks like a Russian great coat)that were swept away.
    Have I ever done a cold water rescue?Yes.And knowing what I know now about hypothermia and what you're supposed to do,I'd have made sure we did it differently.
    We got the guy out and the port captain wanted to know if the guy could finish his shift so we got him dried out and went on.
    Can you say"We was lucky."?

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    We had water rescue call a while back (some dumb ***** got caught on a cliff over the water) Anyway, I responded with the engine with my gear thrown in back. I got off with my climbing helmet tac pants and tac boots. (I also am a member if a local woodlands rescue team.) Getting giggles, smirks and "What are you wearing?" question. This included the "I've made rescues like this way back...I am more qualified! I'll be down there."

    Well, guess who was the first person chosen by the tech team to assist? Yep you guessed it. While I was assiting in the hot zone un-packing gear etc.. and setting everything up, the rest of the crews were standing by the trucks.

    Listen to what the call is and go in prepared!

    Kind like the old saying...."Don't bring a knife to a gun fight."

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    I've been in a pool in shoes, jeans, and a sweatshirt, and it was hard as hell to move. I imagine it would be at least twice ar hard to move in bunker gear.

    To the guy who postd that link, thanks.
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    NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER be at scene of any type of water rescue in bunker gear, not pants and not a structural helmet they will kill you. That being said everyone needs still-water training. Ever seen a pool with the thin plastic cover on during the winter? Ever seen this same pool with a foot of snow on top? strange it looks just like the grass with a foot of snow. Happend to a budy of mine when he was working in colorado. How many of you take a buddy with you when you are doing a walk around? Think we are safe from that sort of thing down here in texas? 3am, 3 mobile homes and 10 acres of brush burned. We were overhauling the mobile homes, and had flowed a bunch of water. The homes were in a slight depression so the water didnt relly run off. There was about 1-2 inches covering the yard no problem right? I had seen it at a bunch of fires. The problem came as we were overhauling. I was pulling siding off of the mobile home steping to my right. I kept steping to the right pulling siding until suddenly there wasnt any ground to the right. Can bunker gear help you float yes it can, in this situation no it didnt. They were in the process of installing a septic system at this mobile home and had dug a 12' deep hole to sink the system in. At 3 am with 2 inches of water on top of everything the hole looked a lot like the grass, a pudle. Me a 270 lb fire fighter with 60 lbs of gear and a 12' pike pole went straight to the bottom. It is not a good feeling at 3am to be 12ft below water at the bottom of a hole looking up at your buddies light. I pushed off of the bottom and luckily he was able to grab my arm as it broke the surface of the water keeping me from decending once more into the pits of hell lol. He was able to hold me at the surface long enough for the rest of our ladder company and an engine company to run over and help drag me out. 270lbs of scared fireman plus 60 lbs of dry gear all suddenly wet took about 6 guys to pull out. Luckily I was fine but I did learn a few things and now the guys give me a hard time cause I will sound the ground outside at night as I walk. It could have been real ugly if my buddy wasnt right there and paying attention. How do i know it was 12' deep? We were short a 12' pike pole until we remembered it was mine and we found it just under the surface of the water in the hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Positive preperation prevents **** poor performance.
    haha, nice. but i have always heard it as the "7 P's" which is "Proper Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance"

    nice information to have on this subject. i will be sure to pass this information onto my fellow firefighters

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    Yes and No. I've been to a lot of Water incidents, and I've accumulated a good deal of training on the subject. I think Bones summed it up well in his post. Firefighting gear is necessary, if you're going to engage in fire suppression, but it is not anything you want to wear around water rescue operations. One SOP that is easy to adopt, If you are doing ANYTHING within 50 feet of the water, you wear a Flotation device. My personal vest is a Stearns Type V Work Vest (Doug, sound familiar? ) and I absolutely do not go near the water without it. I can swim, but if I am injured, holding a victim, or otherwise unable to devote my full time and effort to swimming, then I become part of the problem. In December 2005, I was part of a team that made a successful grab of a guy who had turned his car over and slid into an Ice covered pond. Proper Training, Proper Equipment, good timing, and a bit of luck resulted in a live grab, and everyone went home.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    One SOP that is easy to adopt, If you are doing ANYTHING within 50 feet of the water, you wear a Flotation device.
    We have just such an SOG. PFDs are worn anytime we are near the water, except when fighting fire. In that case, a couple of Jakes in PFDs are standing by in case someone gets "wet".
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIRETOM56 View Post
    boots filled up and dummy sank to the bottom of a 12 foot pool in under 10 seconds.
    I'm sure the dummy would have sank even if it did not have boots on. There are a lot of factors in buoyancy. Water entering the boots weighs the same as the water outside the boots-it will not cause you to sink.

    A few years ago, I took my crew to the local High School pool for an experiment on firefighters in water with turnouts. I have the video somewhere in my basement.

    We made a few observations-

    Roll on your back and you will float (at least your face will be above water).

    The guys who carry the equivalent of a mechanics tools box in their pockets will sink. It only takes a pound or two of weight (ballast if you are a SCUBA diver) to make you sink.

    Climbing out of the water with boots full of water (knee and full length) is next to impossible. We found that taking the crap out of your pockets and kicking off the boots greatly improved mobility and flotation.

    Taking your helmet and holding it on your chest will give you some additional buoyancy. It will also trap air in the coat which will help you to float.

    Your SCBA will work under water (we used Scott 4.5's). We found the 4.5's free flowed, especially if you looked up, but they still supplied air to the fire fighter.

    We did these tests with a SCUBA diver next to the fire fighter.

    We always use PFD's on incidents near the water.

    Fire turnouts should not be used on the water. My concern is the same as mentioned above, falling into a pool or water filled pit at a structure fire.
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    We went to the local pool to practice the falling in a pool scenario. We used full bunker gear with scott AP50 (4.5) airpacks. We were able to successfully float on our backs for as long as we needed, even removing your mask and stopping the flow of air you float high enough to have your face above water. Getting in and floating was easy, getting out was the hard part. Easiest way was to float/swim on your back to the end with steps and climb out. But we proved that YES we can float and YES we can survive in full gear so long as we dont panic and think about what were doing.
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    When our land based Engines are assigned to augment the staffing on a Marine Co. we are supposed to board the boat wearing our work duty pants and work duty shoes...bunker pants and boots are not to be worn when near the water.

    FTM-PTB

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    One SOP that is easy to adopt, If you are doing ANYTHING within 50 feet of the water, you wear a Flotation device.
    Doesn't it cause problems when you take a shower?
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    We try and follow the standards set forth by the NFPA for rescue tech when operating around water. Have a PFD and a throwable device when operating on a fireground near water. For example had a boat fire and you pretty much needed to be in full PPE to get the job done- RIT had water rescue stuff ready to do and a diver getting suited up.
    Water rescue in turnout gear? Send your Chief back to school! We do a ton of water rescue and the turn out gear stays on the truck. We each have put on old turnout gear an gone into a pool to train for the just in case- one stud even managed to tread water for 20 minutes-rubber boots and all. I managed to get my gear off before I made it back to the shallow end. nuff said. Near drowning.
    Went on a mutual aid call once during a flood and watched several departments operate from john boats and a canoe with guys in turnout pants and boots- it's amazing what you see sometimes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIRETOM56 View Post
    The instructor conducted a demonstration on a dummy, 175 lbs plus turn out gear. dummy also had a basic life vest on. boots filled up and dummy sank to the bottom of a 12 foot pool in under 10 seconds.
    OK, I just had to address this one....I'm assuming the dummy was a Rescue Randy or some such thing? Yes, he will sink in a swimming pool, even without the turnout gear AND while wearing a life vest. Why? Because the human body, being about 96% water, is already near neutral buoyancy. A life vest only provides something like 15 lbs. of additional buoyancy. Rescue Randy has NO natural bouyancy, so he defeats that 15 lbs of lift from the life jacket, no contest. The bunker gear has NOTHING to do with the equation.

    At the plant where I work, many years ago, the Marine Department (ship and barge loading dock on the Mississippi River) wanted to do a "man overboard" type drill. They strapped a life jacket on our Rescue Randy and dropped him off the dock, hoping to then "rescue" him from the water. Unfortunately, they didn't understand bouyancy and poor Randy sank to the bottom of the Mississippi River like a rock. He hasn't been seen since.

    Sounds like the instructor in this case did not do his homework or was trying to demonstrate a concept he did not fully understand. Turnout gear will, in fact, assist you in floating by trapping air. We have done drills during water rescue class where we went into the pool in full bunker gear and practiced various floating and maneuvering techniques. Nobody sank to the bottom.

    I'm not advocating working around water in turnout gear. This was more of a survival technique, as in what to expect if you are working around water and you happen to fall in. Water rescues call for their own specialized gear.
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    I have personally done this type of drill.
    I floated for a good couple of minutes with turnouts on, in a semi-sitting position. Definately was not "dragged down" by the turnouts.

    It was nearly impossible to achieve negative bouyancy with an SCBA on. I had to wear a scuba wieght belt to get down under water.

    The SCBA worked just fine under water at ~15feet, a little compression around the face seal caused a little discomfort, but nothing bad. There was a normal level of air flow, and no free-flow.

    All in all, wearing an SCBA under water will work in a pinch as a SCUBA system, which was the point of the drill, although some type of a weight belt will be required.

    And turnouts will keep ya up for a little while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    My personal vest is a Stearns Type V Work Vest (Doug, sound familiar? ) and I absolutely do not go near the water without it.
    Yes,Chief.They're rated to provide 17.5 pounds of buoyancy.An adult male weighing 180 lbs buck nekkid "usually" needs 8 lbs of buoyancy.Add VHF radio,knife,clothes and steeltoed boots that a towboater carries and you need about that much extra.
    The only fireboat I've seen was Paducah Ky's barge paid for by the local towing companies and manned on call by a PFD(no pun intended) truck company.They'd carry their bunkers with them but worked in station clothes and Mk Vs unless they went up on the platforms where the nozzles were.Then they'd wear the coat under the vest to stay drier.
    Supposedly,my department which has the majority of the marine companies in their district was to train on that barge but we never did during my time there.For some reason,very few of the members wanted anything to do with water flowing at 5-8 mph.
    To expand on my"water rescue" experience,on McKeller Lake here in Memphis,a guy had slipped in some loose grain and fallen overboard in mid 30s temps.I had no idea what the water temps were that January day but it couldn't have been too much warmer than the air.The barge had just been pulled from a grain dock which is where the spillage had happened and the freeboard from the barge deck was about 13" or 14".
    We pulled him straight up out of the water(about the only thing done right)and got him to the galley of my boat to rewarm him with coffee and blankets.He was the only guy that day that didn't know to bring extra clothes during winter so we turned the stove up on high and dried his clothes so he could go back to work as the port captain wanted.
    If it happens again,even if I am not a pilot,the boat is immediately going back to the dock to meet an abulance no matter what the port captain says.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Yes,Chief.They're rated to provide 17.5 pounds of buoyancy.An adult male weighing 180 lbs buck nekkid "usually" needs 8 lbs of buoyancy.Add VHF radio,knife,clothes and steeltoed boots that a towboater carries and you need about that much extra.


    For some reason,very few of the members wanted anything to do with water flowing at 5-8 mph.


    To expand on my"water rescue" experience,on McKeller Lake here in Memphis,a guy had slipped in some loose grain and fallen overboard in mid 30s temps.I had no idea what the water temps were that January day

    Thanks. I have a Aluminum Frame/Stainless Blade folding knife, a Lightstick, and a couple of Aluminum Carabiners hanging on my vest. Aluminum?? Yeah, gotta bit of maintenence there, but the light weight makes it worthwhile. Funny, spilled grain never crossed my radar, I thought the wires were the worst thing on the barges.

    Flowing Water.......... At flood, the streams that we deal with are doing that and then some.


    Memphis may be at a more Southerly location, but that water probably came from Minnesota or Wisconsin..........


    Stearns makes a great dry suit, except for the hands, and I'm usually in one on Water calls, either because of the temperature or the contamination in Floodwater.

    They're called "Port Captains" because the office wants them where management can keep an eye on them.......
    Last edited by hwoods; 05-15-2007 at 12:40 AM.
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    That was our Dept that did the Turnout's in the water. It really wasnt bad to float or swim the the gear. With the SCBA on its quite easy. Should you find your self without an SCBA, just stay on your back, try not to let the remaining air out of the suit and get to shore. if there is no shore and you have to float it out for a while, use your helmet as a float. if no helmet. turn your boots upside down and catch air in them and stick em under your arms.

    we make fun of the flotation device SOP all the time, PFD's have sometimes been worn while washing dishes. you can also use them for other things. we recently had to rescue a Horse from a lake shore, we used the PFD to kepp the horses head above water, and to also shield his eyes while performing the extrication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitllesmertz1 View Post
    I have personally done this type of drill.
    I floated for a good couple of minutes with turnouts on, in a semi-sitting position. Definately was not "dragged down" by the turnouts.

    It was nearly impossible to achieve negative bouyancy with an SCBA on. I had to wear a scuba wieght belt to get down under water.

    The SCBA worked just fine under water at ~15feet, a little compression around the face seal caused a little discomfort, but nothing bad. There was a normal level of air flow, and no free-flow.

    All in all, wearing an SCBA under water will work in a pinch as a SCUBA system, which was the point of the drill, although some type of a weight belt will be required.

    And turnouts will keep ya up for a little while.
    my experience is same as mittle's.

    On another note, how many times have you seen FF's wearing the heavy, neoprene Stearns immersion or "ice rescue" suits near/on moving water?

    Talk about dangerous... there's been more than 1 FF killed wearing that style suit in moving water, yet you see it all the time.

    Dwayne - I wonder how many LODD's Rescue Randy has had? I know we've had some "traumatic amputations"... no drownings that I know of, though!
    Last edited by Resq14; 05-15-2007 at 03:26 PM.
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