Thread: Boomer

  1. #26
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    After seeing this, I would think twice about one of their aerials
    Do you also think twice about Pierce aerials, LTI's, ALF's, etc? They've all had failures that appear to be the same reasoning...faulty welds.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default Big Brother

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonFire View Post
    A message from Crimson Fire:
    As you can see from the posted photo, the Crimson Fire Boomer experienced problems while on display before the Illinois Fire Fighters conference in September. No one was hurt during the incident, and we took immediate steps to correct the issue.

    The Boomer has since returned to our aerial headquarters in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We have yet to determine whether this unit, which has been on the road as a prototype demo since its introduction at FDIC in April, may have been operated beyond its stated manufacturers’ capabilities. We have determined that the failure at the show was the result of an inferior weld – specifically, a non-penetrating weld in the location of the heel-pin primary support structure.

    Corrective action has been taken to ensure that future weld integrity will be maintained. Additionally, all completed and in-process Boomer models will be inspected using X-ray technology to ensure weld-integrity compliance. It’s important to note that the structural design of the Boomer was developed and verified using state-of-the-art Finite Element Solid modeling techniques and has undergone rigorous testing.

    Crimson Fire is dedicated to providing the emergency-services industry with reliable, high-quality products. We have more than a century of experience in this industry and remain committed to ensuring that our products meet the tough demands of the firefighters who use them.


    Looks like big brother is watching the boards

  3. #28
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    Cool Boomer Failure

    Two thoughts come to mind looking at the pictures of the failed "Boomer"

    I question the wisdom of an offset lift cylinder that side loads the boom. Granted, it looks like it has a big re-enforcement plate to handle the offset loads (These are the welds that failed)

    And secondly if the heel pin was continuous through to the other side the pin might not have pulled out. I can envision the boom being rotated fast in the same direction as the offset loading and stopped suddenly tearing out the weld. I'm kind of curious as who was operating the unit when it failed? A factory person, dealer or fire fighter?

    I know this is Monday morning quarterbacking, but I like to think out loud!

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    Quote Originally Posted by taskforce16 View Post
    I have two quick comments on this issue.

    First I think Crimson was trying the old "ten gallons in a five gallon bucket" theory. It seems like they we're trying to build a Swiss army knife type of truck that will handle "any situtation".

    Second, what do you think Crimson will say when they publicly comment on this? My guess is something like "This failure of the Boomer should not be a reflection of our aerial design and our aerial products." WRONG! There is a difference between a pour design and not operating the apparatus correctly.

    After seeing this, I would think twice about one of their aerials. If they are putting out designs and welds like this in this product, then what else can we expect? I wonder how many aerial orders are being put on hold or cancelled due to this failure? Just my thoughts.

    Do not be too quick to judge...Bare in mind ALL Mfg. have Prototype Failures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Station25C1 View Post
    Looks like big brother is watching the boards
    Big brother is ALWAYS watching!!
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

  6. #31
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    FLEETMGR121

    Please check your information B/4 posting.
    METZ AERIALS: "SO EASY A CAVEMAN CAN USE THEM"

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    I would hate to be a welder for Crimson. Something bad happens and management quickly throws the floor guys under the bus. But hey it has to be the right thing to do because we all know engineers design everything 100% right the first time! I believe you will see a redesign of the base.

    If management is correct and it is a welding problem then they have a major problem on their hands.

    Are the Boomer and their aerial's manufactured in the same facility?

  8. #33
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    How many of these "Boomers" are in use?
    How many have failed like the one pictured above?

    That would definitely reflect on whether it's a design issue or the welder's issue.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #34
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    Default interesting - glad no one was hurt

    I have seen this offset cylinder design on more than one application in various products (don’t laugh too hard at the picture). It’s a single arm loader. Imagine the stress in that application as well? Yet it was one of the most trouble free loaders of its day. Would two cylinders be better on the Boomer? Maybe – I know I would like it, but I also know the product was targeted at the lowest number of parts possible with a very affordable price for those that can’t afford an aerial device. Hence the progressive design to cut costs.

    I am pretty hard on things that fail and poor quality (you all know that by now I am sure). But just the fact Crimson stepped up to answer right away is a good thing – (I think).

    I won’t make excuses for anyone, but I will say that I have seen aerial devices of all makes and models fall victim to “roading” them. In other words – you ain’t seen nothin’ yet. Even those who supposedly have “no failures” have had pivot pins come out, members break, platform buckets actually fall off, etc. Essentially I think this was one of those problems.

    All those guys I trained over the years (if they are watching this thread) can now see why I always preached “know the condition of your equipment – do frequent visual checks”.

    A note: Notice Crimson said above they are going to use radiography (X-ray or gamma ray) as an inspection method in this area on this product. As a CWI and NDT Nutjob, I can tell you this would be WAY above and beyond code requirements – this seems to speak well of their intentions. I know I would not go that far unless needed – and in my professional opinion, I don’t think it’s needed. (and I am a code & quality first stickler, the likes of which you will rarely see). What is needed (depending on joint configuration and thickness) is simply a properly done inspection using magnetic particle (MT) & visual (VT) inspection, by an NDT tech who knows what he is looking at, managed under a first rate QC system & Manager.

    There isn't enough speed, wieght or force on this little boom to rip out welds or the pin when rotating and stopping hard in either direction. TL
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    I've read these forums for quite a while but have never really take time to respond. There is definitely a wealth of information these boards.

    Some surprising and alarming comments in here have me scratching my head wondering where some of you get your facts, such as:

    Fleet-Mgr: You actually think Mr. Salmi has engineered ALL aerial devices throughout our planet?!! Last I recall, there was only ONE man who walked on water, but he didn’t have anything to do with fire trucks.

    "Camiva" (I think you meant) is a French builder.

    Crimson Girl: Nice loyalty to your team, but really…NAME ANOTHER “prototype” failure for us all. The Boomer design is intriguing, but thank goodness it is NOT built for any man-power, therefore NO life threatening injuries.

    SSITim: I agree that they at least admitted up front and recognized this failure, and are addressing it quickly, but aren’t you overlooking the overall potential weakness to the design? This aerial is only months old and did not last. There aren’t any of these sold yet, or in-service, are there?

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    Default Poor Design

    When I saw the boomer at the Harrisburg show, I had a hard-time figuring-out it's usefullness. I would rather put my money in something that is proven:
    www.snozzle.com makes a very nice unit.

  12. #37
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    LT, the device is so short (and light) that the offset built into this design makes almost no difference.

    Look closely at the picture of the weld. It was a text book example of “LOP” (lack of penetration). How it could have happened on that scale I can’t tell you since I wasn’t there, but it honestly doesn’t have anything to do with the design of the device.

    But like I said I am not sticking up for anyone, just trying to be informative.

    Captain7: Your right – the “Snoz” is an awesome device. After all the firsthand problems I have seen with running tandem axle quints with true type aerials on top in a “quint concept” (that never get used for anything BUT a water tower), faced with the choice- I would take a Snozzle or boomer type design any day and use them on my “engines” rather than go “true quint” in many cases. I would then keep my truck companies in tact. TL

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    There is no excuse for a bad weld on any aerial device. There should be great concern on the reason for this failure.

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    Agreed Quint 23, it is a quality problem (not a design issue). Like I said
    Quote Originally Posted by SSItim
    What is needed (depending on joint configuration and thickness) is simply a properly done inspection using magnetic particle (MT) & visual (VT) inspection, by an NDT tech who knows what he is looking at, managed under a first rate QC system & Manager.
    It should have been caught. TL

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    Default More Crimson Problems?

    Well it will be interesting to see how this ends up. I thought maybe CrimsonFire might have come back on to give us an update of their x-ray findings and or corrections that are being made. Then again, maybe not.

    Not to pick on Crimson any more but I heard from another little birdie (actually a good friend of mine that recently moved to the Brooking's area) that there are some issues with a Unimog/Brush Truck that was built for Brookings, SD. I thought I remember seeing that truck posted here on Firehouse several months ago but I can no longer find a picture of the truck. If my memory serves me right, I think it was a black over red truck that actually looked pretty sharp. I was able to find a link to Crimson's web site of that new delivery, but they appeared to have taken the particular page down so there might be something to the story.

    From what I hear, Crimson engineering failed on this project. Apparently the thing was so over weight on the rear that Crimson ended up throwing in a free snow plow for the front of this thing for a counter weight. Unfortunately that still didn't cut it and the now they have (or are in the process) of buying the truck back.

    He said Crimson may be attempting to build a similar truck on an International 4X4.

    Does anyone else have any more info on this? I'll talk to my buddy here in a couple of weeks to see if I can get any more updates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSIaerialmanTIM View Post
    Agreed Quint 23, it is a quality problem (not a design issue). Like I said It should have been caught. TL
    Agreed. If this is the prototype. It should of had everyone's eyes in manufacturing, management and engineering looking at it over and over. It is scary to think what a line product would get if this made it out for the world too see.
    Last edited by Quint23; 10-08-2007 at 07:35 PM.

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    Default Crimson Unimog

    Picture speaks for itself
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Do you also think twice about Pierce aerials, LTI's, ALF's, etc? They've all had failures that appear to be the same reasoning...faulty welds.
    It's nice to see that some people realize "no one" is perfect and "no apparatus" is perfect.

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    Question

    I heard Brookings Crimson/Unimog was rejected and sent back to Crimson.

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    Default I think your right

    it's been sitting down in Brandon for a good long time

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    OOOHH that's a bad one. I've seen these for years in Europe, there are thousands of them in service and they work great if you use them the way they were meant to be used. The weight needs to be distributed equally over all four wheels. Somebody didn't do their homework. We have one in Kennett Square and it is a sweet machine. Runs like hell, stops great, plenty of power and goes anywhere in or out of town. Before we drew the first line we spoke back and forth with the guys who have been building them for years in Germany and Austria then we told Mike Lemuiex what we wanted, he scrambled it around however engineers do and Rosey built us a nice little TAC unit.
    As for the Brandon rig putting the two extra seats on that truck ruined it trying to use that large of a body and an extended wheelbase.

    Just my humble opinion!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArdmoreVFD View Post
    Picture speaks for itself

    So they run it with a plow all year??????

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    Not commenting in any way with regards to the issues that may or may not be present with the Unimog pictured, but I really like the name on the plow.

    "ASSALONI" Sounds like a part of a porn name.
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    Not commenting in any way with regards to the issues that may or may not be present with the Unimog pictured, but I really like the name on the plow.

    "ASSALONI" Sounds like a part of a porn name.
    would the first name be Levi ?

  25. #50
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    Well I think they rejected the truck altogether.

    You can about imagine what would happen if they removed the plow. There is just too much weight on that rear end.

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