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Thread: Metz Raptor

  1. #1
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    Default Metz Raptor

    Anyone using or have any comments on the Rosenbauer Raptor aerial that was on display at the FDIC. It seemed like a nice unit, small and compact. Just wanted to see what anyone thought of this unit. We are replacing a 100 ladder and would like a platform but they are so large. What are your thoughts?


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    Let me state that I'm new to the forums, but have seen the fur fly on previous similar threads. I can also say that we have been shopping around in preparing to replace and older 100' rear mount stick, and the Metz device has left QUITE an impression on our committee. The Metz rep stated RIGHT UP front that it is not for eveyone, but then took 3+ hours showing us how it can do things others cant. The speed was unbelievable and it also set up awesome in our hilly streets. We requested a return visit for all to see. Keep you posted on that.

    JH

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    chiefanthony,

    I saw the Raptor at FDIC. There was alot of people looking at it and going for a ride. It is a nice truck. I would contact them for a demo. My department did last year. We were very impressed due in part to the fact that it is a single axle truck, can be setup very quickly and does not have to be level to operate. The self leveling terret is neat too! We also flowed water and it also was a simple operation. It is an engineered piece of machinery.

    Be Safe,

    Capt Lou
    "Got Foam?"

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    Thanks guys. I did not get to ride the bucket but it looked pretty stable. In your dealings did the platform move very much or was it stable at full extension? I have contacted the company trying to get it here for a demo.

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    Default Warning!! Before you consider it do your homework

    Ok I have posted this once before but here it is again:

    Ok To the question about the Metz being NFPA compliant heres the list (its kinda lengthy but please read):

    1) I show that the Metz has a "PAYLOAD CAPACITY" of 600 pounds. NFPA has specific terms that they use in rating an aerial. Payload is not one of the terms. In Section 18-8.1 NFPA says that the Rated Capacity of the elevating platform shall be a minimum of 750 pounds (dry). 500 pounds when flowing water. For an aerial the minimum is 500 pounds. All ratings must be in increments of 250 pounds. The Metz spec that I have says that it will carry three people or 600 pounds at the tip. Per NFPA a firefighter weighs 250 pounds. This is only 2 people. In a discussion with a Metz engineer at a show in Massachusetts on June 24th of this year, he said that the aerial is rated for 2 people with the platform and 3 people without the platform.

    2) Load chart - The load chart that was displayed on the Metz aerial at the show in Massachusetts on 6/24/02, does not show any allowable loads below 30 degrees. This needs to be checked. NFPA 18-3.2 states that the aerial must be able to support a minimum of 250 pounds at the outermost rung of the outermost fly section with the ladder at full extension at 0 degrees of elevation while flowing water in any position that the monitor can be placed. The norm in the US for an aerial is 500 pounds. If this is considered a platform then the minimum is 750 pounds dry and 500 wet. Have them provide you with a copy of the load chart. Any other manufacturer will do this. Without a load chart it is difficult to tell what you are buying.

    3) NFPA 18-3.3 says that rating must be in increments of 250 pounds and shall be in addition to any fire fighting equipment mounted on the ladder. Do they have an allowance for an ax and pike pole at the tip beyond the rated capacity?

    4) Tip controls - If the unit is considered an aerial and not a platform (which is their load ratings ) then the controls at the tip have maximum speeds at which they can operate the aerial. This is for safety reasons to keep the operator out of trouble. These speeds are outlined in 18-5.4. The section also requires that a switch at the base control pedestal must be depressed at all times that the operator at the tip is moving the ladder. These requirements are not applied to a platform but this unit does not meet the minimum requirements for a platform.

    5) Water delivery system - If the aerial has a permanent water delivery system (prepiped waterway) it must be capable of delivering 1000 gpm (section 18-6.1). I have seen multiple specs on the Metz and I am not sure of what they can deliver. This would be a good question. It might also be a good idea to ask them to demonstrate this. It may flow 1000 gpm but I am not sure.

    6) NFPA 18-2.1 and 18-2.11 say that the aerial, together with the steps and platforms on the apparatus body must provide a continuous egress to the ground at any degree of elevation. Rotate the Metz 90 degrees to the side of the truck (as though you were parked in front of the fire building) and try to get on or off the ladder. This is a major safety issue in NFPA. If you cannot do this you cannot perform a rescue with this aerial without moving the aerial with people on the ladder. If you need to evacuate a lot of people it will be a slow process with this ladder.

    7) The Metz has infinitely variable jacking which allows you to set up the jacks as far as possible and then it calculates your operating envelop. This is a nice feature. The only problem with this is that when you rotate the ladder over the left side of the body the base of the ladder swings out of the right side by as much as 10 feet. You should measure this to confirm my number. If you need 10 feet on each side of the truck for the swing, this limits the ability to fully utilize the variable jacking. Your current aerials can be operated without any swing over the opposite side of the body.

    8) The Metz has the ability to set up on grades and has a self-leveling turntable. These are nice features. Most other aerials sold in the US can be set up and operated fully on about a 6 degree (12 percent) hill. This is probably bigger than any hill that exists in your Township. So you would probably never benefit from this feature.

    9) Look at the handrail heights and widths on the fly section. Is it wide enough to climb in gear carrying a saw. Try it and see. Are the handrails high enough to give a feeling of comfort?

    10) The Metz specs talk about the ability to "bridge" by supporting the tip. They then say that you can put up to 12 people on the ladder. What does this mean? How many can be on the ladder in the unsupported condition. The load chart is required to show this if the aerial is rated to do this. (18-3.4) Get a copy of the load chart.

    11) Rung Spacing- One Metz spec says that the rungs must be spaced a maximum of 14 inches. Another Metz specs says that they are spaced at 12". NFPA allows only one rung spacing - 14". Not a max or a minimum but 14" (18-2.5) Measure the Metz. This is critical because if you have multiple ladders with different rung spacing or other departments climb your aerial at a mutual aid or training situation, this difference makes it hard to climb. If you are used to climbing a 14" spacing and then try to climb a 12" spacing it is very difficult. When it is dark and icy and you are trying to carry a victim down the ladder this becomes even more critical. Who will be liable if someone falls from a non-compliant ladder and is killed. Will it be the chief?

    12) NFPA 18-20.1 requires that the ladder be designed to support 2 times the weight of the device (the dead load) and 2 times the weight of the rated load (people and equipment or live load). Do they design and test to this?

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    Jake, I believe you had seen our Metz at the '02 show.... so far it has worked great! The reason for us going with the Metz as opposed to lets say a Pierce, E-one... was long driveways and narrow roads.... Even the crane feature of this aerial which we would have tought we would never use, came out to be good to have during a heavy rescue that we operated on when a boom truck collapsed on the driver we used our aerial in conjunction with a heavy duty wrecker to lift the boom off of the driver. And as to flowing at least 1,000 GPM we actyally flowed close to 1200 at a recent fire. Metz, is deffinately a defferent species of aerial. Keep in mind that "WORLD-WIDE" Metz produces the most aerials out of any company there are currently over 700 of the 100' aerials in services and many more in the the longer lenghts also. But like everything, everything has pros and cons. What works for us, neccessarily doesn't work for the next dept.

    A pic of our ladder - http://firenews.org/ct/AvonCTL12.jpg
    Last edited by dano8696; 04-25-2007 at 07:21 PM.

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    Your climbing area on this one looks like 12" centers to me Chief, TL (FDIC-07)
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    Spent time getting some more info from our Metz'-Roze' contact. He reminded me that Metz falls under the Roze' umbrella and all RBA dealers now carry both the Raptor and the newer (upcoming) T-Rex. I guess he's a regular contributor on the forums. They defend the Raptor by stating up front that there are some areas that are not fully NFPA compliant, but also that the European design offers MANY features simply not found on any North America trucks. To us, no one could touch the aerial speeds or the way the turntable levels, or especially the below grade reach. A demo here on our river (bridges and dams) could not be matched by two other models, so far. I haven't seen the lifting capability, but agree that the Avon rescue photos were very powerful and NOT something that any other aerial builder would probably even try. I guess it is a case of: To each their own ??

    (Jake: you need some valium)

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    MembersZone Subscriber redbaron's Avatar
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    Smile Raptor

    Jake, what are you going to do if they change that book?

    If guys in other parts of our lives didn't look to the future we would each need to pull a Radio Flyer Wagon behind us to carry the equipment needed to give us the lifestyle we take for granted from our cell phone.

    The way the Raptor Aerial was set up at FDIC looks and is impressive to us but to other Firefighters around the World it's another day at the office. Metz could have accomplished this same set-up in 1921.

    To address the idea that anyone may have in their head that a Raptor Aerial may be "not up to the job" let me suggest a little fund raiser and some fun.

    You bring whatever you think is the best Aerial Ladder in North America (can't be a Metz) and let's do some real aerial work, maybe pick some actual calls for re-enactment and use a mutually acceptable scoring system. If you can out-perform the Raptor I'll give $1,000.00 to a mutually acceptable Firefighter charity but if Raptor out-performs you then you pay-up. This will help a worthy charity and cut the B S.
    METZ AERIALS: "SO EASY A CAVEMAN CAN USE THEM"

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    Default Rung Spacing

    Does anyone know the rung spacing on a ground ladder?
    METZ AERIALS: "SO EASY A CAVEMAN CAN USE THEM"

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Does anyone know the rung spacing on a ground ladder?
    An interesting discussion is being heard across this great land of ours regarding rung spacing on both aerials and ground ladders. Will it go anywhere, we'll wait and see. But the discussion revolves around the possibly antiquated standards and the predominantly white male firefighters that made up our ranks for the better part of the fire service history and the current more diverseified force we have. We see many more people that are not as tall and therefore have a hearder time in gear climbing ladders. Oh yeah, gear? We didn't wear bunker pants whhen the ruung spacing part of the standard was enacted. Most proabbaly have seen the requset for "true firefighter measurements". The group studying this wants to know how big we are in gear so that the rules can be changed to more accurately fit our true needs. Pertinant to this area of the forums: cab space, seating space, aerial ladder rung spacing, aerial ladder width, etc.

    Personally, I don't care what the spacing is, I'll ride up and down on the platform.Sorry I'm not where I have access to the ground ladder info, but climbing them is totally different, given the range of climbing angles of an aerial.

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    Cool

    Well so people know this is America. European techonolgy is the latest and greatest and very impressive, however somethings could use some improvement. Primarily the compartmentation on a rig such as the raptor, not a great deal of room for the NFPA equipment we are required to carry on a unit. Easy to use is one thing, but how often would you really use something like that? Does it have a rated 1000# tip load at 0 degrees full extended not flowing water?? I know the answers to most of these questions, but I will say it has it's place as a specialized piece of equipment in "certain" areas of the country; mainly mountainous areas with extreme grades.

    Just some thoughts....

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    MembersZone Subscriber redbaron's Avatar
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    Default Metz Raptor

    Last Out; I really think some of these code names are real matchers. When you make the comment about the compartmentation did you really look? I will guarantee you that a 34' long Raptor has as much if not more storage space than any other 34' long aerial on the street. When you made your observation what wouldn't fit or are you just guessing?

    The Raptor is also not a specialized piece of equipment, it is a Turn Table Ladder that can do whatever an aerial needs to do and some extra.

    We cannot put 1,000# in our basket but we could and in an emergency everyone would be just fine. The Raptor basket is basicly the European answer to foot pegs. Every aerial ladder built outside of North America is supplied with a basket because sometimes it just doesn't make sense to climb when you don't need too.

    What we were showing at FDIC was that you could set the truck up on an 8 degree slope without any leveling and the turntable would level automatically as it has since 1921. At the same time we demonstrated that up to 4 people in the basket could safely operate over those short jacks at any angle. You make the remark that this is something you wouldn't really need then go on to talk about putting 1,000# at zero degrees fully extended, how often do you need that and do you realize how big that makes the truck? I would have thought a light bulb would have went off by now telling us that as our communities become more congested that the time had come to do something about the lumbering giants but instead we continue to see them get bigger each year.
    METZ AERIALS: "SO EASY A CAVEMAN CAN USE THEM"

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    redbaron,

    I would have thought a light bulb would have went off by now telling us that as our communities become more congested that the time had come to do something about the lumbering giants but instead we continue to see them get bigger each year.
    I could not agree more or say it any better than that!

    CaptLou
    "GotFoam?"

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    Default

    Anyone have any pics of the "Rapter"?

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    Default Tl

    ********tl
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    Default Tl 2

    Tl2 * * * * * * * * * * *
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    Default

    As to anyone wanting to question the Metz's strength here is a picture of the heavy-rescue we performed using the Metz that I had mentioned earlier


  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber redbaron's Avatar
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    Default Raptor

    This is an actual Raptor Aerial, first one goes to Osage Beach in December, it will be on a Spartan chassis. It is set-up by one man in 10 seconds, 6 seconds if you short jack. This truck is a Mercedes Econic with a Metz/Rosenbauer Euro Style Body.
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    METZ AERIALS: "SO EASY A CAVEMAN CAN USE THEM"

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    Default Spelling

    RedBaron...

    I am not slamming you but merely asking a question. Are there different body styles with high side compartments? Because looking at the picture of the rig for Osage Beach there is simply no way you could carry 1/2 of the truck equipment we carry on either of our 75 foot quints or the 105 foot aerial we run at work. So in my mind it simply would not work for us unless there was a way to have far more storage space.

    FyredUp

    I apologize to RedBaron for inadvertantly spelling his name wrong in my post. No insult was meant. It was just the result of clumsy typing fingers.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-29-2007 at 01:12 PM.

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