Thread: Cost Benefit

  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CordovaFire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Cordova, AL
    Posts
    176

    Default Cost Benefit

    I know its late in the game, but my cost benefit formula is not working. Exactly how to you fomulate the cost benefit?

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ktb9780's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Auburndale, FL
    Posts
    6,078

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CordovaFire View Post
    I know its late in the game, but my cost benefit formula is not working. Exactly how to you fomulate the cost benefit?
    First Due population X service life of equipment in years divided into total project cost
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Northern NY
    Posts
    189

    Thumbs up Kurt, whats a good number??

    I got 1,650 people for a 20 year service life for $24,000 = $1.38

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ktb9780's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Auburndale, FL
    Posts
    6,078

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting41NY View Post
    I got 1,650 people for a 20 year service life for $24,000 = $1.38
    What equipment are you going for ? Vehicles are 20 year, everything else is 10 years. I would say for $24,000 you are not going for a vehicle so your cost benefit would be:
    \
    1650 X 10 = 16,500 population served. 16,500 divided into $24,000 = $1.45
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Clanton, AL
    Posts
    63

    Default "Magic Number"

    Just out of curiosity what is the "magic" number for cost benefit if one exists? I know there are several variables such as justification for needed equipment, but is there a "magic" number, just for future reference.

    FYI, my communications grant for this year based on Kurt's formula results in a cost/benefit of: $1.08.

    Based on pop. of 3800, 10 years service life, cost of $41,000.

    This is for 5 mobiles, 15 portables, 2 mobile repeaters, all APCO 25 and SAFECOM compliant, one portable for each seated position.

    Our apparatus grant for a tanker for $230,000 will be: $3.02


    THANKS!!

    Dan
    Last edited by ecfd933; 05-04-2007 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Forgot apparatus grant cost/benefit

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ktb9780's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Auburndale, FL
    Posts
    6,078

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ecfd933 View Post
    Just out of curiosity what is the "magic" number for cost benefit if one exists? I know there are several variables such as justification for needed equipment, but is there a "magic" number, just for future reference.

    FYI, my communications grant for this year based on Kurt's formula results in a cost/benefit of: $1.08.

    Based on pop. of 3800, 10 years service life, cost of $41,000.

    This is for 5 mobiles, 15 portables, 2 mobile repeaters, all APCO 25 and SAFECOM compliant, one portable for each seated position.

    Our apparatus grant for a tanker for $230,000 will be: $3.02


    THANKS!!

    Dan
    My statistical average shows under $2.00 per person for equipment
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Clanton, AL
    Posts
    63

    Default

    Thanks Kurt!

    Dan

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Engine305's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Sahuarita AZ, formerly of Hewitt NJ
    Posts
    293

    Question Cost Benefit

    Uh oh................Did my narrative have to include the formula all worked out with my project?Type 2 engine 4635 residents $ 191,000 and 20 years?
    arggg..
    Guess thats a DJ

  9. #9
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    No, Cost-benefit calcs like that are rarely found in apps just because they don't take into consideration the changes in population, call volume, etc, over the lifespan of the project so they're not really accurate for argument's sake as far as face value goes. They're a simple way to figure out if you're asking for too much or not, but without including all of the variables if someone that knows their math realizes parts are missing from the calculation then they may dismiss your argument based on that. Narratives are about the right now cost-benefit, and Kurt is right in the money zone with wanting to be as low as possible while still solving the problem fully. It doesn't mean if you're over that you're out. But it will determine what else you can ask for. This is where asking for PPE or SCBA comes into play. 1 or the other may work, but not both based on the numbers. Same with SCBA and compressor, while connected you may not be competitive for everything at once even though they are a breathing air project.

    I really only use them to determine potential computer scoring, Peer doesn't care about the math since they know by the time the app gets to Peer the computer already said it's a statistically competitive app. So narratives are for the warm and fuzzies that the numbers don't have: how torn/worn the gear is, how many times the SCBA have failed on scene, how many times you ran out of water waiting for the mutual aid tankers, etc, etc. Numbers can't show that information which is why we write the narrative.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Engine305's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Sahuarita AZ, formerly of Hewitt NJ
    Posts
    293

    Default Cost benefit

    Does $ 2.07 for a Type 3 engine look like a good c/b ?

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    242

    Default

    The formula above only gets you half-way there. Dividing the cost by the population over 10 or 20 years only gives the 'per capita' cost of the proposed grant.

    What is the formula to show a the benefit of that cost?

    Figuring out the cost is easy - the trick is putting a dollar value on the BENEFIT.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ktb9780's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Auburndale, FL
    Posts
    6,078

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefSquirrel View Post
    The formula above only gets you half-way there. Dividing the cost by the population over 10 or 20 years only gives the 'per capita' cost of the proposed grant.

    What is the formula to show a the benefit of that cost?

    Figuring out the cost is easy - the trick is putting a dollar value on the BENEFIT.
    Good point ChiefSquirrel. The problem comes in figuring out the value of a human life saved...
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    105

    Default high cost benefit

    Hey Kurt, Would you think that a cost benefit of $3.81 for SCBA would get past the computer scoring?

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ktb9780's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Auburndale, FL
    Posts
    6,078

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NewAtThisGame View Post
    Hey Kurt, Would you think that a cost benefit of $3.81 for SCBA would get past the computer scoring?
    It seems a little high but; anything is possible.
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  15. #15
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    So is that $3.81 per resident? per firefighter? For 1 year? 15? The computer doesn't run multi-year calculations so it's not concerned with useful life like can be argued in a narrative. And there's no hard and fast number anyway, I've funded folks from $1/resident to $120/resident for equipment projects. Just depends on the needs of the department and what they're asking for. Right project, right department, right reasons, right price. Two wrongs don't make a right but 4 rights means a good chance of spending someone else's money.

    Kinda hard to pin down an exact number anyway, since the computer looks at all sorts of calculations. Age of current equipment, condition, which choice in the dropdown was picked, call volume trending, budget %'s. All of the numbers mean something so one calculation isn't going to make or break any application. Cost-benefit calcs are guidelines in project design as a way to figure out whether or not you should include a compressor with your SCBA, or PPE with it. Or anything at all. If all you are asking for is SCBA, then the cost-benefit doesn't matter because there is only 1 way to fix an old and non-compliant SCBA situation: replace them. On the other hand, water supply has many fixes with different C-B calcs.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    207

    Default another party heard from

    To throw in my two cents...

    All of this back n forth stuff comes down to this; cost benefit helps determine the point at which your needs turn into a shopping list; just as assessment will.

    None of us, even the gurus know what the matrix-secret hand shake-magic formula the feds use to move apps through the computer into the hands of our peers; if they did then I think they would use that knowledge to win a few state lotteries and powerball games.

    Bottom line, both cost benefit and assesment are critical parts of your applicaiton process.

    To every rule there is an exception wether its the 500K quint for a small town, or a 800K scba project for department X or Y.

    The key to success at this is simply following the directions, drinking alot, reading the PG, and then drinking some more.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ktb9780's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Auburndale, FL
    Posts
    6,078

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AFD2181 View Post
    To throw in my two cents...

    All of this back n forth stuff comes down to this; cost benefit helps determine the point at which your needs turn into a shopping list; just as assessment will.

    None of us, even the gurus know what the matrix-secret hand shake-magic formula the feds use to move apps through the computer into the hands of our peers; if they did then I think they would use that knowledge to win a few state lotteries and powerball games.

    Bottom line, both cost benefit and assesment are critical parts of your applicaiton process.

    To every rule there is an exception wether its the 500K quint for a small town, or a 800K scba project for department X or Y.

    The key to success at this is simply following the directions, drinking alot, reading the PG, and then drinking some more.

    ....and looking at my drawer full of losing lotto tickets, it will probabaly remain as the Holy Grail I keep searching for.
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    JAMAICA IOWA U.S.A.
    Posts
    347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AFD2181 View Post
    To throw in my two cents...

    All of this back n forth stuff comes down to this; cost benefit helps determine the point at which your needs turn into a shopping list; just as assessment will.

    None of us, even the gurus know what the matrix-secret hand shake-magic formula the feds use to move apps through the computer into the hands of our peers; if they did then I think they would use that knowledge to win a few state lotteries and powerball games.

    Bottom line, both cost benefit and assesment are critical parts of your applicaiton process.

    To every rule there is an exception wether its the 500K quint for a small town, or a 800K scba project for department X or Y.

    The key to success at this is simply following the directions, drinking alot, reading the PG, and then drinking some more.

    Well if my dept doesn't get a grant this year I will be beyond the 12 step program

    We have tried for 3 years to get a new pumper/tanker as our two trucks are 23yrs old and 40yrs old both with 385 gpm pumps and 1200 gal of water in a rural area. With a $8000.00 budget $3000.00 is left for training and new equipment and with 50-60 calls a yr I'm beginning to think NEED is not a factor for these grants.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Naperville, IL
    Posts
    57

    Default Need based benefit

    Quote Originally Posted by mtndew21 View Post
    Well if my dept doesn't get a grant this year I will be beyond the 12 step program

    We have tried for 3 years to get a new pumper/tanker as our two trucks are 23yrs old and 40yrs old both with 385 gpm pumps and 1200 gal of water in a rural area. With a $8000.00 budget $3000.00 is left for training and new equipment and with 50-60 calls a yr I'm beginning to think NEED is not a factor for these grants.
    Dew, consider yourself somewhat fortunate. your budget allows for a aproximately 40% allowance for training and equipment. Our budget allows for 3% outside of personnel costs for training, maintenance,equipment, etc. If it is not in a paycheck, that is all thats left, 3%. ALthough, my 3% is larger than your $3000.00.

    It is a numbers game, I too am looking at an average fleet age of over 23 years, of our three engines the youngest is 17 y/o. We are also looking to replace a vehicle, but the use and the direct benefit to the population served is where the NEED is derived. Your argument is valid, but consider you need to replace a vehicle that responds to 50-60 calls a year. Of those 50 annual responses, what is the total population affected by the response. What percentage are actual fires or reported fires? DHS was pretty straight forward this year about the run totals and population base.

    Take for example a department that has only $100,000 remaining outside personnel costs to manage two stations, vehicle maintenance and upkeep, training, compliance issues such as PPE and SCBA, etc. That same department runs 3000 calls per year, the vehicle potentially repalced runs 1500 of those calls, and of those a good quarter are automatic aid for reported or actual structure fires. The impact population is 17,000 locally and 60,000 including auto aid. This community also lost $700,000 of taxable income 5 years ago, never made it up. Calls increase approximately 4-6% per year, per capita income decreases annually and has lost 4 positions per attrition 3 years ago. The city is only allowed to capture 85% of its levy, and that curve proportionally grows every year. This engine responds auto aid to a community that just laid off half of its department.

    Where is the DHS $ going to benefit the most? Do I think you need a rig?, you are damn right I do! I hope peer review sees it the same way, as your vehicle age should have gotten you past computer scoring. But, according to the PG, cost benefit has to BENEFIT many. After seeing this years application, I am guessing that the busier and more densely populated area you serve, you stand a better chance.

    It is my opinion, thats all. Most importantly, you took the time to go thru the process. It makes you so much better prepared for the next time, and as all of have done, listen to Kurt, Brian and Allana. They are honest, truthful and here to help all of us solve serious problems that those who were locally elected can not answer. The 12 step process is only allowed during May, Starting June 1 get ready for next March.
    Good Luck!

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Pinckney,MI
    Posts
    103

    Smile Usda

    With 3K left for the year get a hold of the USDA service office for your area, they have some creative financing available that may help you, it sounds like you may even have a per capita income low enough for a possible grant monies, the local office would be best suited to help you.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. cost benefit and bigger split
    By firelaw in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-03-2007, 01:32 PM
  2. FYI in CA
    By hootman in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 09-28-2004, 12:04 AM
  3. 2004 IAFC report on the voluteer fire service
    By HeavyRescueTech in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-02-2004, 09:55 AM
  4. 2004 report by IAFC report on the volunteer fire service
    By HeavyRescueTech in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-02-2004, 09:55 AM
  5. Insurance??
    By fdman804 in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-14-2003, 06:23 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register